Post-SHOT Show Colt Cobra Update

[Old Dog]

I must say, it's quite interesting seeing bashing of a gun's potential ... when the gun in question isn't even in production yet.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

BSA,
Stacking is gone.
Go to Amazon.com, search "Sense Of Humor", and order one. If you use Amazon Prime, you can have a brand new sense of humor, complete with warrantee, delivered directly to your home in 2 days.
Denis

"I must really be off target today. I am not trying to be sarcastic."

Oh boy..... ok back to business.

I'm glad to hear the Colt is already doing well. If the current que is already full, and it isn't just over inflated sales expectations on the parts of the distributors and dealers, it seems we can look forward to a few years of production at least and possibly different variants being offered. Hooray for us! The thing that really interests me is how many Cobras will it take to saturate the carry market and the "I just want one." market. Obviously newly anticipated guns generate more interest than the same model a few years down the line. I'd also love to know of the people buying them to carry, how many of them are folks with diminished hand strength or just folks looking for a carry revolver NOT chambered in 357, so it doesn't beat them up.

Denis, your copy and paste powers are truly being put to the test regarding the trigger stacking "assumed issue" with the new Colts. Pretty soon your computer will start autocorrecting anything that starts with an s to "stacking is gone." I love that my iphone has learned which profanity I am typically intentionally typing.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I must say, it's quite interesting seeing bashing of a gun's potential ... when the gun in question isn't even in production yet.

That's what we do Old Dog, we bash guns we haven't handled, or dry fired, or live fired yet, and assume because a manufacturer had issues in the past, that it will be a problem again.

"Look! Acme is bringing back the classic "Blasterator"! Look someone on the forum actually got to handle one and talk to the manufacturer rep!"

Invariable response to thread topic: "I had an Acme 30 years ago and it was a piece of CRAP!"

We ASSume.

Anywho, I hope all the worry is for nothing.

 

[d'zaster]

I might consider new Cobra if they offer it in 6" bbl

 

[Kendal Black]

For what it is worth, I myself find no cause for complaint in the old Colt D frame trigger, and if the new one is indeed nicer, que bueno!

Just as a pharaoh arose who knew not Joseph, we have a generation of shooters on board now who feel there is something the matter with the factory stock and standard trigger pulls on the K Smiths, D Colts and so forth. If you are habituated to such triggers, though, they present no great problem. The gun in DA mode is quite adequate for close defense, at least, and if you really need to shoot a long way you likely have time to cock the hammer...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I hate to say it, but I think Colt fumbled the ball here. They should have offered this revolver in .357. Now I know and you know that a revolver that size is a brute to fire with full charge .357s, but nevertheless, that fact that it's only available in .38 Special will affect sales.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

It will sell like hotcakes in. 38 Special for the first run or two. Then, when sales taper off... Bam!!!.... They will make it in. 357.

 

[Jim Watson]

I must say, it's quite interesting seeing bashing of a gun's potential ... when the gun in question isn't even in production yet.

If they are going to start touting its advantages before it is in production, why shouldn't we bash it?

Actually, I have high hopes for the new-ish gun. I quite liked the SF6/DS2 and just from looking at drawings there is more carryover into the Cobra than they might care to admit.
In the same category, I once had a strange little 3" .38. I do not recall if it were marked PPS or DS, though.
I still have my Pythons, although they are largely supplanted by Smiths and autos. Maybe I should clean them up and look for a speculator.

Anecdote Alert: My then girlfriend had a Gold Cup and a DS. She complained to Colt that the revolver trigger pull was too heavy. They said send it in. It came back with a Custom Shop action job rivaling my CS Python PPC gun.

 

[Blacksmoke]

I hate to say it, but I think Colt fumbled the ball here. They should have offered this revolver in .357. Now I know and you know that a revolver that size is a brute to fire with full charge .357s, but nevertheless, that fact that it's only available in .38 Special will affect sales.

Perhaps but I do not agree. That it is rated for +P ammo will appeal to many six gun enthusiasts. I once owned a 2 inch Lawman and that cured me of magnum loads in a snubby. This is not to say you are wrong. We shall see if they make that change down the road.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Perhaps but I do not agree. That it is rated for +P ammo will appeal to many six gun enthusiasts. I once owned a 2 inch Lawman and that cured me of magnum loads in a snubby. This is not to say you are wrong. We shall see if they make that change down the road.

Oh, I agree that anyone who shoots .357s in a snubby will find himself completely satisfied after a few rounds. But that's being practical -- and most guns are bought on emotion. If they offered this gun in both .38 Special and .357, I'd bet the .357 would be the run away best seller.

 

[gotboostvr]

...If they offered this gun in both .38 Special and .357, I'd bet the .357 would be the run away best seller.

I dunno, Smith and Wesson sells a hechuva lot more 38 J frames than 357 J frames.

 

[fastbolt]

Back from Vegas tonight.

Did not make Range Day on Monday, so have not fired the new Cobra, but did handle a couple booth samples, talked to a design engineer on the project, and Colt's Custom Shop Manager.

If Colt can maintain the quality I saw in those booth samples through production guns, this new Cobra will sell.

Very well machined & assembled.
DA trigger IS linear, as described, with none of the older traditional Colt V-Spring stacking.
Smooth DA travel, clean SA break.

Prices are kept down by designing the action with MIM technology & riding tight enough herd on parts speccing to require hand fitting on only ONE SINGLE PART- the hand.
And Colt's even working on a process to eliminate that.

They've put a helluva lot of engineering effort into the gun.
I liked what I saw.

It'll never measure up to The Old Fart Club, but I think it'll have no problem standing on its own merits.
Denis

Just saw your thread post.

A friend of mine was also at Shot and did much the same thing regarding examining the Colt production prototypes and talking with the Colt people. He was also impressed. If they can keep the DA trigger pull within the stated spec of the prototype, and keep the pricing competitive (somewhere between S&W & Ruger), I rather suspect the new Colt will do fairly well, even chambered in "only" .38 Spl +P.

The line of potential new models in the wings, if this model does well, seemed like a good thing about which to hear and anticipate. If Colt can manage to make their new revolvers "parts is parts" guns, like Ruger, it'll go a long way to keeping costs reasonable.

Did you hear whether Colt is using a MIM house for their parts, or have they invested the money and manufacturing space to make their own parts? My friend didn't ask.

 

[DPris]

MIM outsourced.
One booth rep said they don't discuss details like that when I pointed out the MIM hammer & trigger, another booth rep mentioned parts vendors in a discussion about tolerances & quality.

And I'm outa further discussions on this gun.
I've cancelled my sample request & won't be getting one.
There'll be others who can answer additional questions on the Cobra.
Denis

 

[walnut1704]

The much repeated BS about Colt "turning its back" on the regular consumer is just that- BS.

No company, Colt or anybody else, should be expected to continue manufacturing non-profitable product lines because a segment of its customer base feels that company owes it to them.

Colt had limited resources & made a business decision to allocate those resources toward products that WERE profitable.
They didn't do that just to poke you in the eye.

Had you & others been buying those discontinued revolvers in sufficient numbers to justify Colt keeping them in production, you can bet those guns would still be in the catalog.

You go start up a business manufacturing red widgets & blue widgets.
You'll have the resources to build a finite number of widgets in total.
You start out making equal numbers, 50% red, 50% blue.

In a couple years you notice that red widgets are outselling blue widgets 100 to 1.

You can't keep up with red widget orders, while blue widgets are stacking up on shelves waiting for orders to come in.
The blue widget orders are intermittent, but operating expenses are constant.
You're a for-profit business, you have to not only pay your bills or go under, but make a profit, or there's no point in bothering to run the biz.

Gee. Tough decision there.
But, you make that tough decision, and you swing all available resources into expanding production of red widgets, and you drop the blues.

Sales increase exponentially, you stay afloat, you actually make money, and you simply tell those few people now deciding they want blue widgets "Sorry, had to move on."

The Blue Widget Brigade, completely ignoring the realities of the manufacturing world, may hate you forever for "abandoning" them, but business IS, after all, BUSINESS.

And you REMAIN in business.

Buy the Cobra or don't, but this unfounded resentment against Colt for doing what it had to do to survive is nothing but idiotic.
Denis

Hmmm...well yes, and no. I don't give them credit for doing what they had to do to survive, when their predicament was entirely of their own making. It's like the firemen that are arsonists, and want the accolades for putting out the fire they themselves started.

The U.S. consumer market is the largest firearms market in the world. They had a preeminent brand in the largest market in the world and couldn't do anything with it? They walked away from that for government contract work? Sheesh. Seems a tad short-sighted.

But regardless, it's like those that won't buy a S&W with the lock. The management that made that decision is gone, they paid the price for that. I wouldn't want that on my resume. Whole new company, only the name has stayed the same. It serves no purpose to continue a personal boycott, when you've already won. Unfortunately U.S. firearms companies have a long and storied history of mismanagement.

You have to judge modern production guns on their own merit. I will. Is the Cobra better than the competition for the money? Yes or no. That's all that matters to me. What the previous owners did is irrelevant to me.

 

[RealGun]

I might consider new Cobra if they offer it in 6" bbl

With 6 rounds, I think it becomes at least a 4" gun, which will tip less high-OWB and the grip then be more concealable, when the muzzle has more leverage below the belt.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

I've cancelled my sample request & won't be getting one.

Might I inquire as to why?

 

[DPris]

Let's just say that when a professional working relationship of a quarter of a century invested in supporting and defending a company reaches the point where it's no longer worth the effort, it's no longer worth the effort.
I fired Colt.
Denis

 

[Sergei Mosin]

Whatever transpired, it's unfortunate; you've been a big booster of the Cobra and I was looking forward to your full review.

 

[Kleanbore]

The U.S. consumer market is the largest firearms market in the world. They had a preeminent brand in the largest market in the world and couldn't do anything with it? They walked away from that for government contract work? Sheesh. Seems a tad short-sighted.

The business case for continuing the production of double action revolvers was not there. There were several factors:

• In 1996, the supply of DA revolvers exceeded the demand;
• Semiautomatic handguns were replacing DA revolvers in the marketplace and were less expensive to produce;
• Plant and equipment had reached the ends of their economic life cycles;
• Unit labor costs were not competitive;
• The products required extensive handwork by a workforce that was rapidly disappearing due to age.

The growth in the concealed carry market, the development of new, less costly, high quality manufacturing processes, and the opportunity to introduce a competitive product (six shots and a manageable trigger pull) seem to have led Colt to bet on the Cobra.

 

[buck460XVR]

MIM outsourced.
One booth rep said they don't discuss details like that when I pointed out the MIM hammer & trigger, another booth rep mentioned parts vendors in a discussion about tolerances & quality.

And I'm outa further discussions on this gun.
I've cancelled my sample request & won't be getting one.
There'll be others who can answer additional questions on the Cobra.
Denis

That's too bad, 'cause. IMHO, if anyone here could give an accurate and unbiased opinion, it would've been you. For those same reason's, I trust your decision to cancel the request was a legitimate one.

 

[walnut1704]

I'll still contend that this was preventable over the long term. Just four years later S&W made a huge misstep and came close to death. Who knows? If a stronger Colt had been around Saf-T-Hammer may have never bought S&W which saved that brand from dying. I just find it incredible that all these other manufacturers survived, even thrived. Colt just threw in the towel and missed a lot of market growth.

But they are back and I wish them well. I hope they build us some good guns. A contrarian would take Colt's re-entry into the market as a sign of a market peak.

The business case for continuing the production of double action revolvers was not there. There were several factors:

• In 1996, the supply of DA revolvers exceeded the demand;

• This also affected their competition equally.

  [*]Semiautomatic handguns were replacing DA revolvers in the marketplace and were less expensive to produce;

• This also affected their competition equally.

  [*]Plant and equipment had reached the ends of their economic life cycles;

• Replacing equipment is part of the normal course of business. I have no inside knowledge of their particular situation, but having worked in manufacturing all of my life I would find it surprising that they required replacing all of their equipment at one time. Typically it just does not happen that way. Typically you don't buy it all at once, and you don't replace it all at once. But regardless, it's management's responsibility to accrue funds and plan for that regardless of the market conditions.
  

  [*]Unit labor costs were not competitive;

• Another failure of management responsibility: to control costs
  

  [*]The products required extensive handwork by a workforce that was rapidly disappearing due to age.

• Completely foreseeable. Again, they failed to keep up with changing conditions.
  

The growth in the concealed carry market, the development of new, less costly, high quality manufacturing processes, and the opportunity to introduce a competitive product (six shots and a manageable trigger pull) seem to have led Colt to bet on the Cobra.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If they'll bring out the Shooting Master again, with chamber and bore dimensions correct for .45 Colt, I'll buy two of them.

 

[Kleanbore]

Completely foreseeable. Again, they failed to keep up with changing conditions.

(Referring to "the products required extensive handwork by a workforce that was rapidly disappearing due to age.") Someone with remarkable foresight and a very long planning horizon may well have foreseen that in time, the basic 1889 design, with its inherent requirement for extensive handwork and periodic factory adjustments, would not forever remain competitive with other designs or survive in completion with the new technology that would later be introduced by Ruger. Someone may even have predicted the day in which mass produced semiautomatic pistols would replace revolvers in police service. However, if there was no such person, or if his or her lone voice was ignored, I would not blame management.

Colt had to play the hand that they had dealt themselves in an earlier era. The business cases for redesigning the products, prerequisite for effective recapitalization, would not close after police departments had given up on revolvers. Nor would it have made sense to endure long strikes to "control costs". And the time when skilled craftsmen looked forward to long factory careers had long passed. No, those were not management failures.

The Smith designs required less in the way of skilled labor, and the Ruger designs represented a new era.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Someone may even have predicted the day in which mass produced semiautomatic pistols would replace revolvers in police service. However, if there was no such person, or if his or her lone voice was ignored, I would not blame management..

That's Management's job -- what do they think the stockholders pay them for?

 

[Kleanbore]

That [predicting when mass produced semiautomatic pistols would replace revolvers in police service. ] 's Management's job -- what do they think the stockholders pay them for?

Well, at some point they did, and they also evaluated the rest of the market and the competition, and they stopped producing double action revolvers.