practical advantages of .357 over .38?

[zt77]

I know the velocities and energy level differences but I also know that shot placement is key.
having killed deer with either with the only load im interested in shooting, what I'm asking is there any practical difference in terminal performance between a .38 special +p 158 gr lead semi wadcutter hollow point and the same bullet loaded to .357 magnum velocities?

would like input on pros and cons, the reason for the bullet choice is my magnum is a m66 and i've heard the horror stories but i'm playing it safe...I'm pretty positive this load is easy on the gun.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The .357 Magnum when developed was an "improved" .38 Special. Their goal was to increase velocity and energy so I'm not really sure what you're asking since you said you already know that but want more.

You also said, "What I'm asking is there any practical difference in terminal performance between a .38 Special +p 158 gr lead semi wadcutter hollow point and the same bullet loaded to .357 Magnum velocities?" In actuality it's .357 Magnum pressures you should be asking about, not velocity.

There is a big difference when hunting Deer with a .38 Special and a .357 Magnum. The .38 Special won't penetrate anywhere near as well as the .357 Magnum. Bullet expansion is also in question from the .38 Special. If you don't do damage to the internal organs and create a deep wide wound channel you aren't going to kill that Deer quickly and mercifully. I'm not a fan of HP lead bullets for hunting, I prefer a wide face Hard Cast bullet for that job.

 

[Stainz]

The R38S12 Remington 158gr +P LHPSWC is often chosen due to it's low speed (840-860 fps from 2" 642/10) opening charactersitics from a snubby. It's softer lead may just lead a barrel at .357 Magnum velocities. A harder lead alloy - like the one Georgia Arms uses - might prove a better choice for .357 Magnum ammo.

If you are not hunting, you really need to evaluate your need for .357 Magnums. Recalling their initial 'need' - to pierce the car doors of fleeing felons of the day - may help. While they admittedly are not at the same level today, the possibility of over-penetration, particularly in an urban environment, has to be considered.

Stainz

 

[johnnylaw53]

Back when we moved to .357's we were still using light .38's at the range mostly due to cost and wear on the weapons. The belife being when you had to use the weapon you wouldn't notice the extra recoil and flash which of course is bogus you do notice it not so much that you think about it but your follower up shots are slower or you miss them since you are rushing them the bright flash blind you in low lights, we began doing some range work with .357 ammo but this was about the same time we switch to the 9mm all problems with this went away. i think if you carry .357 ammo you need to spend some range time with that ammo.

be safe

 

[INSULATION TIM]

Interesting.

I just purchased a 357 Mag 3" revolver as a night stand home defense weapon. I am specifically loading it with 38 +p Speer Gold Dot loads as I was concerned about over penetration.

Hopefully, I'll never use the weapon except practicing at the range.

 

[MCgunner]

I carry the .357 outdoors. .38 is plenty for self defense, but it's not enough to hunt with. I have put down hogs in the trap with it, head shots. Went down post haste.

 

[Stainz]

I failed to mention, I am awaiting delivery of 1k Starline .357Ms today or Sat. They will be loaded with my plinker mild loads of a Montana Gold 125gr JHP over 4.5gr Titegroup with a Fed SP primer. Those loads are decidedly .38 Special level - but shoot accurately from my 66, 686, and 627s. They also don't lead/carbon up the chambers, as 'regular' .38 Specials, with their shorter cases, would. Loading 'real' Magnums will remain safe that way... provided, of course, that I make a mad dash somewhere to buy my first 'real' .357 Magnums. Of course, after shooting Specials in a Magnum chambered cylinder, cleaning the chambers with a properly sized chamber brush during cleaning makes them ready for Magnums, too.

Why Starline brass when I have a large supply of loaded range sweepings? They fit the Ranch Products 8-hole moonclips for my 627s more easily - and I just got fifty more of them!

Stainz

 

[ArmedBear]

Really, it depends.

You mentioned deer hunting. The .357 is a much better choice for hunting, for a number of reasons.

To keep in your nightstand? The .357 has at least as many downsides as upsides for that.

 

[hoptob]

For SD 357mag has one major upside over 38spl -- much higher stopping power. Good 357mag JHP will penetrate 14-18" and have almost twice the energy of a good 38spl.

Most SD manuals recommend 38spl over 357mag because of higher training requirement and more convenient form factor. This is true but IMHO trained shooter is better of with magnums.

Mike

 

[zt77]

okay speaking of energy, how does a 230 gr fmj from a .45 acp do for energy?

 

[ArmedBear]

It does fine, but who cares?

Energy is mostly bull****, used primarily to try to make a small, fast bullet look like it's "as powerful as" a big one at an average velocity, in a chart.

It is not a great measure of what a bullet will do when it hits an animal (human or otherwise), unless you're looking at velocities far higher than pistol calibers are good for.

Picture this: you have a well-built cinderblock wall on your property, but a road makes a 90 degree turn in front of it. So, on Friday nights, you hear a lot of tires screeching, and every once in a while someone just hits the wall.

A Dodge Ram hits the wall at 50 mph. So does his buddy in a Toyota Corolla. It's obvious which one will cause more damage, and which one will keep going for longer after it hits the wall, right?

Now let's say the Corolla speeds up to 65 mph. Now which vehicle will cause more damage and keep going deeper through the wall?

Anybody really think it'll be the Toyota, or is it still the pickup?

But people do think that, say, a 9mm will act like a .45 if you just boost the 9mm's velocity a little bit.

Now lets say both vehicles crumple and smash their front ends when they hit (like a hollowpoint bullet).

Now which one causes more damage and keeps going farther? If anything, the light car is likely to fail to penetrate the wall at all, right?

Food for thought about energy numbers on charts, that's all.

 

[sonier]

ok when someone says i can load a 38 special to match a 357 magnum,,,,,,i reply well i can load my 357 magnum to a factory 357 maximum. point is even if you make your puny little 60 pound todler pistol too match a factory mans gun. the bigger gun will last longer and can be loaded to what i call "MOUNTAINCRAZYMAN GUNS"

 

[sonier]

oh i forgot........ i can load my "mans gun" to match your toddler pistol if i ever needed so dont give me that excuse that says........ well i can shoot mine easier

 

[pps]

Armed Bear, like you I feel that momentum plays a larger role in getting things done than KE (at least for handguns vs handguns). I do, however, believe that kinetic energy does at least play an important role in making hollow point bullets work as advertised...ie there must be enough velocity to get the darn thing to expand.

At rifle velocities all bets are off.

 

[hoptob]

Good example, Armed Bear. Let's elaborate a little bit further.

Here is a 158 gr. Dodge RAM hitting a wall at 1000 fps.



Next to it is another 158 gr. Dodge RAM hitting same wall at 1450 fps. Which one will cause more damage?

Like PPS I agree with you that ME alone does not tell full story. But I think it tells a part of it.

Mike

 

[Confederate]

As most others have said, terminal ballistics are what they are.

That said, a 125gr JHP .357 magnum is going to have substantially greater terminal power than anything out of a .38 Spc. A solid hit with one of these is usually better than multiple hits with .38 Spc.

Consider that any energy expended once a bullet exits a person is wasted. That's why the above mentioned .357 loading will generally outperform a .44 magnum on a human. The effective aspects of that .357 is that most of the time the bullet stays in the body and does an incredible amount of damage.

There have been many failures of 158gr JHPs in .357 mag. The recoil is so heavy, the penetration so excessive, that the bullets expend much of their power once they've exited a person. If you're shooting a bear, OTOH, the heavier slug has a chance to open up and do damage. And a .44 mag will do even more. Still, if you're shooting at a bear in, say, self defense, your best bet is to shoot it in the mouth or nose (not the eyes, or between the eyes).

The .38 Spc semi-wadcutter rounds (145gr +P) have been very effective, even out of fairly short barrels. And though the old .357s were hotter than the ones manufactured now, don't be taken back by them. They still do very good jobs in putting people down with the lighter bullet loading. The 110gr JHP .357 mag seems to lack terminal penetration in humans and often comes apart in heavy clothing. The 125gr and 140gr JHPs are ideal, and the latter is a good all round load for humans or deer. (In fact, Massad Ayoob experimented with hunting deer with the 125gr rounds and found them to be far more effective than he had imagined.) The 125s also do a respectable job punching through cars and other vehicles, as well as blowing out tires, even from snubby barrels. Don't count on similar performance from .38 Spc.

When I'm traveling on the road, I routinely carry the .357 load; however, around the city and in the house I'm more fond of the .38s. The 125s seem to work well on people, even those under the influence of mind altering drugs and others "feeling no pain." Some people I know have two .38 rounds followed by two .357s and two more .38s. That way, they reason, if they can't drop a bad guy in two rounds, the third and fourth rounds should do the trick.




The .357 mag, when loaded with the right ammunition, offers
substantially greater terminal power than the .38 Spc.

 

[ArmedBear]

Like PPS I agree with you that ME alone does not tell full story. But I think it tells a part of it.

Of course. If you want to compare a 158 grain LSWC going 1000 fps vs. one going 1450 fps, it tells part of the story. I suspect it still overstates the difference, though.

In this case, it's 351 ft-lbs. vs. 737 ft-lbs. In hunting terms, that looks like the difference between a round that's insufficient for deer and one that will drop your deer DRT. And I don't buy that. Some people have done long-range hunting with handguns, for example, and with bullet designs that don't rely on a certain velocity for expansion, they've had success with handgun Magnums way out there -- where the velocity of even the hottest loads has dropped significantly and the energy numbers sound pathetically low. Conversely, hot loads have bounced off boar skulls at point-blank range where the energy levels sound like they're way up there.

I'm hardly claiming to know everything; that stuf has given me food for thought. It all started with some very large game, and a slow heavy bullet I put straight through it. The reason Elmer Keith favored heavy bullets is that he actually killed a lot of large game, butchered it afterward, and examined the bullets and wound channels. Ballistic gelatin is interesting, but it's still just ballistic gelatin, bearing very limited resemblance to a leather-jacketed hopped-up human attacker, aggressive grizzly bear, moose, etc.

But IMO when you're talking about a 230 grain bullet at 900 fps vs. a 158 at 1250, that gets apples and oranges enough that energy is pretty much BS all around, apart from the fact that we're still talking about bullets, handguns and stopping an attacker.

On this borad, though I seldom see hunters comparing a 210 grain .41 Magnum at 1200 vs. 1400, where energy might mean something.

What I do see is people discussing defense rounds, and who seem to think that a 124 grain 9mm is "just as powerful" as a 230 grain .45 because the energy numbers look similar on paper since the 9mm is going a tad faster. And THAT is where energy numbers can be downright deceptive.

 

[TexasRedneck]

...and let me remind you why most brush hunters will choose a 30-30 over a 243 - because high speed, lightweight projectiles deflect!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have always used the evaluation of handgun ammo as pointed out by ArmedBear, as well as using it to evaluate loads from muzzleloading rifles. ME seems to be good in comparing loads of the same type of cartridge with the same bullet and differing velocities. Obviously in the Ram truck analogy if it hits the house at 30 mph it might stop before penetrating the wall, but at 60 mph it's going through the wall..., but we're talking about the same truck in both cases AND about double the velocity. We're not talking about comparing the same bullet at 850 fps vs 1700 fps right?? You also have cross section and in the case of hollow points an increasing cross section (if the HP expands).

I read a report in 1990 (?) from the army that found that across the United States, the vast majority of handgun one shot stops would've been "one shot stops" with almost any caliber, meaning they penetrated the brain or hit the spine. The rest of the handgun self defense shootings required multiple hits to stop the attack although the subject had multiple "mortal" wounds, and the difference between a person on drugs vs. a sober person was negligible.

The synopsis was that a proper defense loading should have "moderate" recoil, allowing the user to recover from the recoil, coming back onto target to fire the next round. (So "moderate" depended on the training of the shooter, the weight and design of the handgun, plus some strength factors to manage recoil) The bullet would need sufficient mass to allow it to reach vital areas of an opponent's torso (center mass), and those vital areas tended to be toward the rear of the torso on a human who is facing you. The recommendation was that the bullet needed to be a minimum of 125 grains, with about 250 grains being a good maximum. If the shooter wanted a hollow point to expand, it had to be going at 1100 fps when it hit the opponent to give consistent expansion (this was 20 years ago, prior to current HP designs, so hold the flames folks).

In conclusion the report recommended 9mm (125 grains), .38 Super (125 grains +) .38 +P (125 grains or heavier), .40 S&W, .44 Special, .45 ACP, .45 Colt as good self defense rounds. Now before folks flame on this was based mostly on police shootings, and police used for the most part at that time .357 revolvers with 4" barrels with +P ammo, AND most LEO's at that time weren't very well trained in shooting for SD but more for accuracy..., so recoil was a factor then perhaps more than today with semi-autos, different bullets, and better loads.

So (imho) you have to balance how the shooter handles the handgun and the recoil (what the bullet does on impact means it has to impact eh?) with the performance. Some of you big guys would do very well with a .41 mag but how about a small person? Snubbies used for CW change the equation (imho).

I like 125 gr JHP in 9mm, 158 LHP +P .38 Special, 125 gr JHP .357 Mag, 165 gr JHP .40 S&W, 240 gr any bullet .44 Special, 230 gr any bullet .45 ACP, and 230-250 gr any style bullet .45 Colt, for SD. For hunting I would prefer as heavy a bullet as I could find in a .357 Mag, and a 6" barrel, or a lever action rifle. Maybe I am old fashioned and ill informed.

LD

 

[TexasRedneck]

Dave, with all due respect the Army needs to go back and look at their results again - because there are too many instances where drugs/alcohol have been specifically cited as reasons a wounded person continued an attack.

 

[C-grunt]

I believe bullet weight and construction are more important that velocity (to a point). A .38 158 grn SWC is probably going straight through an attacker. Now is that same bullet out of a magnum going 300+ fps faster going to do any real significant amount of extra damage, given the same track? It will probably do better against bone, but then the bullet weight and construction can help the slower round.

The one thing I will give is the extra velocity will probably let HP expand more and drive them deeper than a .38 spec will.

But I tend to load fairly heavy rounds in all my pistol calibers so I dont really need the extra velocity to get a good deep wound.

 

[zt77]

the reason i asked about the 230 gr .45 fmj energy is bc i actually got shot with one, and though it might have a lot of energy due to weight, it penetrated through and didnt cause a lot of damage. not to mention i got hit in the femoral artery, had it expanded i would be dead right now.
that is why i, too, think energy is BS.

 

[pps]

mass mv KE MV (slug ft/sec)
125 1450 582.9 0.804125998225377
185 1200 590.9 0.9849157054126
230 900 413.2 0.918367346938776

The first is the classic 125grain .357 mag so commonly used for .357 self defense. The second is .357 185gr LBT that I use as a backup during pig hunts...note it exceeds the .45acp in both muzle energy AND momentum (slug ft/sec)

The last row is the typical .45 acp, as you can see. It lags behind the .357 125gr screamers in KE but has quite a bit more momentum.

 

[20nickels]

^^
I'm glad your okay ZT77. I think you answered your own question. Anything FMJ sucks for SD, even in .45. It "pokes" straight through, overpenetrates and does not do near the damage that a wide faced, sharp shouldered SWC or a HP does.
The 9mm is a perfect example of this. It is abysmal with military ball ammo, but quite deadly with HP's.

 

[hoptob]

I was waiting for someone to mention Marshall & Sanow. Since no one did, I will - at the end of the day we need some data to answer OP's question. Of course there was a lot of arguing about it but AFAIK that's the only data we got...

Now, as long as you believe they've done a good job (I think they have), the answer is right there in their tables. Best 357mag load - 96% one shot stops; best 38spl+P+ load - 80%. That's a big difference

Mike