Why are .38 wadcutters not considered a good carry load?

[Cosmoline]

For very light weight .38 specials, I think they're a fine idea. Gel tests even with the target level WC loads are impressive. But I'd forget about trying to use a speedloader with them. Just practice hand-loading the rounds using the flutes to index. I just got some dummy rounds from Midway that are almost identical in shape to .38 special wadcutters.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I keep getting a feeling of since they aren’t new then they must be useless now. It only works if it’s the latest dollar every time you squeeze the trigger type ammo. Just like how I hear guys that need .300 Win Mag for deer here in the South. Clearly all the old .30-30’s are just junk now…

 

[CoastieShep]

Oh come on Maximum, a .30-.30 for today's deer? Those only work on squirrels these days.

 

[NMGonzo]

Hit what you intend to hit with whatever you choose.

 

[S&Wfan]

I'm with Old Fuff. Then again, I'll bet he's got a lot of time in the woods shooting targets of flesh and bone that move . . . and possibly in the service or in law enforcement too.

Wadcutters work great . . . but there's no money in selling lead wadcutter ammunition that most veteran shooters in the know probably reload anyway . . and thus the gun rags and the assigned gun writers wax ecstatic about whatever it is that the advertisers are pushing that month. Heck, I've got about 1,000 bullets of that type right now to reload (both for .38 special and for light .357 work).

Gun control and very fast and very accurate followup shots . . . IN A SNUBBIE mean light-kickin' 38 Special . . . and that's all you need too. As Fuff said, it is optimal for that lethal platform too.

PS: I carry 130 gn. Winchester hollowpoints in my speed loaders though . . . for faster reloads . . . but if I do my part I can easily put all five rounds, exactly at point of aim, into an inch at ten yards . . . and group five shots in less than 2 1/2" at 25 yards, standing/unsupported. I feel confident in my experience and training, both on the range and in the field against targets that move with my handguns.

BTW, I also use flatnose lead bullets (300 gr. hardcast) in my main deer hunting firearm . . . my S&W Model 29-5. I've taken a LOT of deer with this gun through the years. All one shot/one kill, as it should be . . . and by far the best field results with HARD CAST, FLAT NOSE LEAD BULLETS! No hollowpoints for me . . . I want good penetration and an unclogged wound channel! No more hollowpoints on deer for me . . . been there, done that!

I

 

[daveinvegas]

Yep, inverted hollow base wadcutters are the way to go.

Loaded a bunch up years ago after reading an article in a magazine.

As I recall, they look like the original Hydro-shoks without the nipple.

I'll post photos if I can find em.

I like the manstoppers, tho.

 

[StrawHat]

daveinvegas ...Yep, inverted hollow base wadcutters are the way to go.

Loaded a bunch up years ago after reading an article in a magazine... /QUOTE]

daveinvegas,

I tried that load years ago and found it lacking in penetration. Have you tested it? For me and the loads I was using, the expansion, while impressive, slowed the bullet down to where it totally lacked penetration. But for photos, those loads were the ticket.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Handgun ammo is seriously underpowered at best.

Really? I agree, more is better as long as you can effectivley use the firearm. Underpowered compared to what though, and what is the basis for the comparison. For most folks, walking around with an FAL slung over their shoulder isn't an option. I carry a .380, and I am confident it will allow me to escape or end a conflict if, heaven forbid, I should ever have too.

 

[Ole Coot]

I carry LSWCHP 158gr in my older J frames. I have never heard of any complaints with this load. I don't use +P, don't really think they are necessary.

 

[doc540]

theboxotruth doesn't lie

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26_3.htm

.38 snub

148 grain wadcutter

vs

L-R : Powerball, Hydra Shok, Gold Dot

Not scientific, but I kinda lean toward those that expand.

 

[Oyeboten]

One can always experiment in various media, trying different Alloys for inverted-HBWCs, for how much they will expand or how soon.

One can make differing 'Plugs' for the Mold, for having differing angles depths and diameters of dished front or hollow front.


One can modify a Mold to make a semi-RNL form, which is dished or hollow to whatever degree at the front, which will modrate the rate of expansion.


Many many possible options and variations of the basic DEWC or HBWC...

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

I think the Box-O-Truth tests make a great case for 148gr wadcutters as a defense load. It penetrated as much as the Winchester 125gr+P hollowpoint, the whole while cutting at least a .357 dia. hole, and it looks like it even expanded a bit. The 125gr hollowpoint opened up, but only to the diameter the wadcutter started at, and probably only after at least a few inches of travel through the jugs.

That shows that in that test, the 148gr standard lead wadcutter outperformed a 125gr+P JHP personal defense load from a major ammo maker.

 

[Guillermo]

water is not gelatin
gelatin is not flesh
flesh is not consistent as there is a lot of stuff in there of different densities.

 

[hogshead]

I kinda lean towards those that hold together. Nothing but flatnose hardcast in my 44 Vaquero for me. Sure its hunting but I expect same results.

 

[dispatch]

I guess I am "Old School". I use 158 grain FMJ flat nose in my snubbies. I have no idea how much gelatin they penetrate or what "shock" they induce, but I'm prett surey they will penetrate a jacket and will offer the recipient an unpleasant experience.
I really prefer .45 ACP hardball. Just have not found a reiable handgun that's suited for carry.

 

[joneb]

I like a consistent predictable load for my 38 snub, and a load I can afford to practice with.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=119557&d=1271264679

 

[Byron]

In the 70's a bullet company named Tarus produced the original hydra shock.It was a 148 grain wadcutter with the post in the hollow base and designed to be loaded post forward.They were bought out by Alberts who produced the same bullets.I have a small supply left and this is what I carry(a reload). Home expansion tests show excellent expansion and weight retention.Federal bought the rights and started producing jacket more expensive ammunition. I have full confidence in this bullet for personal defense at close range. Byron

 

[451 Detonics]

I have shot literally thousands of pounds of ballistic gel and as a result carry CorBon DPX in all caliber in all of my defensive firearms. I know many say temporary cavity and hydrostatic shocks don't really matter but there are a lot of tissues in the body that will tear before stretching very much and those tears are often pretty strong damage. I have taken pigs and deer with the bullet as well and it has performed in them just like it performed in gel. The initial high velocity combined with controlled expansion and penetration means a lot of energy dumped in the target without waste.

Try to change people's minds about carry ammo is like trying to get a Chevy guy to by a Ford...I carry what I have faith in.

 

[Ala Dan]

I have loaded 148 grain HBWC [hollow base wad cutter], reversing the
projectile so that the HB is in front, for many snub nose .38 Special
revolvers. In some instances, the 148 grain HBWC's expanded to almost
.60 caliber~! I have never had to shoot one into human flesh; but in 10%
ordnance gelatin they work well.

 

[snooperman]

Guillermo said it right...

Water and ballistic gelatin is not human flesh and bone. One would get better results from actual shootings that is compiled by retired police officers like Marshall and Sanow, who wrote books and articles that occurred over a long time with different types of ammo and handguns.

 

[Japle]

Posted by 451 Detonics:
Try to change people's minds about carry ammo is like trying to get a Chevy guy to by a Ford...

Yep.
And from reading some of the posts in this thread, it seems like some folks would enter a NASCAR race with a 1962 Ford Falcon.

 

[Guillermo]

it seems like some folks would enter a NASCAR race with a 1962 Ford Falcon

it seems some folks jump on what is new because it is new, not because it works any better...or even as well

 

[Old Fuff]

Oh I know... Us old timers don't understand all of this new technology that goes into today's state-of-the-art ammunition. Why some of us (such as myself) think jelly is something that’s used on breakfast toast...

But face it! What can you expect from a bunch of over-the-hill fogies that are so outdated they still believe in percussion caps, black powder and round balls??? (Fortunately “back when” they were so weak they didn’t hurt anybody).

Not to worry, it won’t be long before we’re all in some bone yard and out of everyone’s hair.

However it is said that there is a relationship between age and experience, but as everyone knows, younger guys always are better informed (about everything) then anyone else.

 

[Guillermo]

once again Old Fuff has spoken and left nothing left for anyone to say

 

[blindhari]

I am an old man now. Fourty years ago a close relative heard dogs in his sheep pen. He picked up a .357 and killed two of them in his sheep pen. County prosecuter charged him with excessive use of a firearm, use of a firearm within city limits, and cruelty to animals for use of hand loaded ammunition of "vicious charactor designed to create great bodily harm". Jury said not guilty on first two and guilty on third. Eventually this was overturned. In the meantime he spent a years salary defending himself for loading cheap handcast wadcutters. Ever since my defense ammo has been common JHP Winchester. Since 357 mag is a little much for me these days, I use my 38special reloads for pratice and hunting, and Win 38 sp 125 grain JHP for concealed carry and home defense. It has always worked for me. Just an off the wall opinion from another old man.

blindhari