Pre or Post ban? Ever been checked?

[MAKOwner]

What is even more ridiculous is the parts count stuff for US vs Imported. What a crock of crap, who the heck at the range is going to know off the top of their head the qualifying parts, the number of replacement US parts needed, and be able to inspect the markings on the parts to determine if they're really US made in all the different "US-made" post bans guns?? Whats to stop someone from scribing or stamping a US on imported parts anyway?? Totally unenforcable, ridiculous crap...

 

[Monkeyleg]

A few years back I bought Benelli M1S90, PG stock. It had the five-shell tube on it, which I thought looked too stubby. The local shop had the seven-shell kits on sale, so I bought one and put it on. Then I realized, "oh,oh."

I got the idea to liquid-weld a two shell limiter into the tube. Called the local ATF office to get their opinion. They transferred me from one agent to another, to the Chicago office, and finally to the DC office. Nobody knew if it would be legal or not. Their last answer was to write them a letter explaining what I wanted to do.

Right.

I don't think even the agents have a solid grasp of what's legal and what's not. I see plenty of post-bans with the Evil parts on them at gun shows, and we know the ATF guys are at the shows.

 

[seeker_two]

1933: Number of federal gun laws? 0.

2004: Number of federal gun laws? 20,000.

I guess there are 20,000 ways to not "infringe" on the 2nd ammendment?

There were plenty of state & local laws infringing the 2nd Amendment before GCA '34....

Remember, the shoulder holster was invented for Texans who couldn't wear their guns openly (or concealed) in town until Bush signed CCW here...

 

[444]

"How many of your fellow officers (not including your shooting buddy co-workers) really could tell the difference between post and pre-ban?"

I have asked this question of a number of police officers over the years since the ban. All of them said that very few of them know the particulars of the law since this is a federal (ATF) matter.

I have never been questioned, even with my sub-gun although everything I own is completely legal here where I live. However several years ago I found out that one of my faviorite shooting spots was actually in California (which I didn't know). So, a lot of the stuff I had been shooting was illegal THERE, but a half mile east and it was OK.

 

[Patent Works]

I am sure in 1934 the same wink and nod was used for people who had auto weapons or shotguns with barrels less than 18 inches.

Indeed. From what I have read, back then (and much later) one could leave the bolt out to render the gun inoperable. One assumed that if checked while shooting, one could simply fess up and pay the $200.

Today, they burn down your compound for mere suspicion.

 

[MeekandMild]

Frankly, I never went through the rituals of obtaining the
required paperwork...

Gee Dan, I hope those old LEO reflexes you mentioned in the feral cat thread never get turned on by mistake. I'd hate to see you knocking yourself to the ground and handcuffing yourself before dragging yourself off to be booked.


I've never seen an LEO enforce such laws. The trouble is they are generally ignored by reasonable LEOs, which then leads to the strong possibility of being selectively enforced, similar to the "driving while Black" phenomenom.

 

[444]

Keep in mind that the only way to tell if a gun is pre-ban or post-ban would be to have a list that indicated the date of manufacture by serial number. There is no way to just look at a gun and tell if it is in compliance. Unless the manufacturer of the lower didn't exist before the ban.
On another note, I have two pre-ban lowers with post ban uppers on them. Actually one of them is a pre-ban upper but it has no evil features (Colt).

 

[Travis McGee]

As stated, I don't think ordinary LEOs give a hoot what you're shooting on the next lane over at the range.

But brother, if you get into legal hassles that cause the LEOs or FLEAs to invade your premises, you can count on the deep rectal probe with a rusty piece of barbed wire. They will go over every empty shell case with a microscope, and they will be adding on jail time for every "illegal" magazine etc. It's their bargaining leverage. Plead to this felony and time served, or go to trial and face 500 years for all of the "gun crimes."

 

[sturmruger]

I have never seen anyone checked out. I am suprised that those ATF guys don't run around and visit local ranges. I suppose the tough thing would be finding out when the rifle was manufactured. They would have to have computer with a massive serial number database. I am sure Agent Shmucatelli has better things to do.


(spelling on Shmucatelli??)

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Not to hijack the thread over what is and what isn't....

On another note, I have two pre-ban lowers with post ban uppers on them. Actually one of them is a pre-ban upper but it has no evil features (Colt).

According to ATF, neither of these qualify as "pre-ban" rifles and cannot now have the evil features added to them, until September that is. The date of manufacture of the lower alone does not determine its pre-ban AW status.

Is it September yet?

 

[4v50 Gary]

I've never seen anyone ever get checked. I've even seen on public ranges ARs with barrels shorter than 16". Unless the rangemaster says something or they aren't safe with their firearm, I won't.

 

[c_yeager]

Local police generally arent in the business of enforcing federal laws. I BELIEVE that the general policy is that if you encounter someone in violation of a federal law that they are to be held untill federal law enforcement can arrive on the scene and deal with them. At least this is how it works with immigration. I doubt that it is worth the hassle for most cops.

Now, should the ATF decide to do a little check thats another story. I would imagine that they wold need a warrent to actually INSPECT a firearm though for preban features/ preban status.

 

[Devonai]

If I knew that my post-ban AR-15 would never be used to defend myself or others, I wouldn't think twice about slapping a pre-ban upper onto it. Since I may need to be able to fit a blank firing adaptor to it, I've considered it. However, I do intend to keep my AR available for defensive use, after which (God forbid) I fully expect the configuration to come under scrutiny. It could be the most clear-cut self-defense shooting in the history of firearms and I could still get in deep doo-doo for the illegal flash hider.



Therefore, I've considered buying a separate pre-ban upper and only installing it along with the BFA. But that's a singular luxury and hopefully all this nonsense will go away in September anyway.

 

[artherd]

According to ATF, neither of these qualify as "pre-ban" rifles and cannot now have the evil features added to them, until September that is. The date of manufacture of the lower alone does not determine its pre-ban AW status.

Is it September yet?

hkmp5sd- I belive you are correct only insofar as the rifle's status PRIOR TO THE 1994 ban.

As in, the lower had to be built up into a full rifle (with pre-ban bad features) ON AND BEFORE 1994. (actually, if you want to get real technical, only at some point before the instant in which the ban became active. Ie 10 seconds before the bill was signed into law, you could screw on that Flash Hider, and be good to go with a 'built rifle'.)


What happens to the rifle after 1994, of course, is not legislated as far as I am aware. (this is not legal advice, you are all advised to consult your attorneys, etc. etc.)

 

[Hkmp5sd]

artherd,

ATF has decided that a pre-ban AW can subsequently lose its pre-ban status unless it has remained in a pre-ban configuration since 1994. The rifle can be temporarily altered into a "post-ban" configuration, but all of the parts needed to return that firearm to a pre-ban status must have been retained with that lower.

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
WASHINGTON, DC 20226

NOV 1 6 2001

Dear Mr. XXXXXXXXXX:

This refers to your letter of March 19, 2001, in which you ask about the status of certain semiautomatic assault weapons which have been altered to another configuration.

<snip>

Your second question concerns a semiautomatic assault weapon that also meets the exemption in section 922(v)(2). However, this firearm was disassembled and the receiver, without other components, was sold. Since the receiver is no longer possessed with all parts necessary to assemble a complete semiautomatic assault weapon, it no longer meets the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon. The receiver does not meet the exemption in section 922(v)(2) and assembly of this firearm in the configuration of a semiautomatic assault weapon would be prohibited under section 922(v)(1).

As with most everything related to the AW ban, this would be virtually impossible to prove.

Is it September yet?

 

[j.wise]

Being a Police Officer, and having broken almost every gun law on the books, I don't give a rat's @$$.

Most cops have no clue what the Federal law says, and that's because it's a FEDERAL law. We don't enforce Federal laws, only city ordinances and state laws.

The ones I would be concerned with the most are pesky range masters at public ranges. I have a rifle I would carry on duty as a patrol rifle, but I wouldn't take it to a high-power competition for fear of it being "inspected."

 

[Kenneth Lew]

.

 

[RustyHammer]

I shoot at club where class 3, full auto, weapons are often used.

In fact, there has been at least one of them there the last 5 times I've been out there.

The entire place is full of active and retired LEO.

FWIW: Never seen or heard of ANYONE ever being checked for compliance.

Of course, we don't look like gang bangers either.

/Rusty

 

[444]

"According to ATF, neither of these qualify as "pre-ban" rifles and cannot now have the evil features added to them, until September that is. The date of manufacture of the lower alone does not determine its pre-ban AW status."

Both carbines were manufactured prior to the ban. Over the years I have forgotten exactly how many of the so-called "evil features" you are allowed to have. One of them is a Colt Lightweight Sporter in 9mm. It is just as it came from the box. I believe it has enough evil features to qualify: It has a flash supppressor and a collapsable stock however it doesn't have and never did have a bayonet lug. The other one has a collapsable stock (and always did), however it has a post ban upper with a KKF muzzle brake and no bayonet lug. Obviously I don't care about pre-ban features. Both carbines are going to stay the way they are, probably forever.

 

[MeekandMild]

I shoot at club where class 3, full auto, weapons are often used...Never seen or heard of ANYONE ever being checked for compliance.

The first time I took my machine gun out to a gun show I was diligent in taking a copy of my form 4 with me. The cop who was banding guns had some problems with it, because it has a normally open action and I got nervous so I showed him the form. He looked at me and said, "I don't need to see that". Implication was he didn't care at all and I was wasting his time, just tell him how to get the band around the action.

 

[geojap]

Having lived in the PRNJ after Florio's version of the AWB (and it was/is a real ban, as in you go to jail for possession no matter when the offending items were acquired), I can tell you that I never brought anything that violated NJ's unconstitutional laws to a range. However, I had plenty of it. In fact, I derived great pleasure during my escape from the PRNJ to Texas, Free America when, upon passing the "Welcome to Delaware" sign, I turned to my wife and said, "Now you won't have to bail me out of jail anymore." I naturally got the bugged-eyed, slack-jawed look that I had wanted and anticipated, plus a chance to explain to her (a gun and gun law novice) all about the Il Duce gun laws that we had just left behind. I told her that I had a 200-year free pass to Rahway State Prison about 3 feet behind us, though I neglected to tell her about the several hundred hollowpoints that would have undoubtedly bumped my potential sentence up to 1,000+ years. She and I are both glad to be out of that tyrannical Hellhole and in a state where owning a gun is considered normal and not a sign of being a latent terrorist or child murderer.

I find it amazing (in a very bad way) that I would be thrown in jail for at least 20 years in NJ for doing what I do regularly in Texas (carrying a .45 loaded with 8 hollowpoints), as well as the mags mentioned above. What does Equal Protection mean if stepping over an imaginary line on the ground within the United States turns you from Joe Average into a dangerous criminal?

Well said. Welcome to Texas!


I shoot at a gun range outside Austin in Manor, TX. Travis County Sheriff's deputies shoot there too. Last weekend I was trying out my new FAL para carbine. Several of them were eyeing it while walking by, probably because they wanted a turn with it or wanted one to keep in their trunk while on patrol. They were very friendly, saying hello and all, remarking about the good weather. Usual chit-chat for out there.

Many folks around here have AW's and you see them at my range frequently. They are not uncommon and probably don't get a lot of scrutiny here.