Priming on progressives

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I've probably only primed 60-70 thousand cases on a Dillon square deal (all .45acp) and a 550. Yeah, I've had a few tipped primers but I'll trade those few for the convenience.
Most issues can be attributed to poor attention to brass sorting, pocket swaging, or positioning in the case plate.
 
The most reliable primer feed I have used is the rotary style, least reliable is the Lee plastic hopper.
I’m trying to figure out what press would have a “rotary” style?
My LNL priming system was excellent. I could even prime crimped 9mm with SP primers. You do have to keep the shuttle area clean, if powder or whatever got in there it was unforgiving.
My RL1100 on the other hand, is having some issues with the priming. About 1 in 100 fails to prime, and ends up on the bench with a crease in it and an unprimed case. Still working on it and diagnosing, but I think that’s an example of every press has it’s nuances. Good luck.
 
I have only used a Pacific C single stage press in all of my reloading for 30+ years because it meets the needs of my shooting. So, the only knowledge I have of turret or progressive presses is from watching videos and comments on several gun boards. I prime on press and have no problems once I set up the Spangle primer attch.

I don't want to discuss on press vs off press/hand held priming- good, better, best.

I just wonder why it seems to me that the included priming systems seem to cause the most problems. Mamy folks use bench mounted or hand held primers
to overcome press auto prime problems.

Why do you, who use these presses, think this is? Is it maybe tolerence stack-up between case rim diameters and centered primer holes between brands of brass and the shell plates/holders? I don't think it would take more than .002 to .004 misalingment to cause a problem.

I thought some cold weather musing might help pass the time.
I see no reason to not use the priming system on my 550. Its worked perfect for over 100,000 rounds.
 
I've noticed on my 650 that if I get a primer in upside down I did not push the handle far enough when seating the primer. Also: if the shell plate is dirty I'll have a problem. I clean the press and blow out any loose dirt with a can of air. After that I'm good to go. I rarely have a problem though.

Dillon's rule. Since switching to the 650 with auto case loader and auto priming I load about 800 rounds per hour. The real trick is to have no distractions. No radio, no tv and no one is allowed to talk to me when reloading. Keep everything clean and you should not have any primer problems.
 
I find that priming by hand with my little "Green" hand primer is darn easy, mostly trouble-free (except when I screw up), and fast. It's one less concern while I'm watching all the magic on multiple stages of a progressive press. Since I introduce only clean brass to my press, I don't decap on the progressive either - just my way of doing things.
Several comments in this thread reference each having their own way - that works for the individual. I respect that.
If I could make a change right now I would trade my progressive for a good solid turret.
 
But, my question was not about which press is better, as your above statement implies, but what is the REASON for the problems
I reload on two progressive presses, the Hornady LNL and the Dillon 750. Both priming systems had to be set up correctly and tuned to run well.

I've also spent time helping friends who were about to give up priming on their progressive presses...mostly the Dillon 650 and a couple of Hornady LNL. The one consistent cause of the priming frustration was not setting up their priming systems correctly and/or not understanding that neither system was plug-n-play.

I've found that my frustrations in priming on a progressive, for my two main calibers (.38Spl and .45ACP), were greatly reduced by going to Starline brass
 
Sorting cases by head stamp helps a lot also. Learning what brands of brass has tight primer pockets does also. (S&B) for one.
I use to load mixed head stamps on my Hornady and I was always stopping to check a piece of brass that had more resistance to priming to see if it had a crimped primer pocket.
That slowed me down a lot.
I started sorting all my brass by head stamp several years ago and now I know how to expect my primer to react to priming on that press within the first 50 cases through the press.
That took some of the confusion, when priming, out of the operation for me.
 
Sorting cases by head stamp helps a lot also. Learning what brands of brass has tight primer pockets does also. (S&B) for one.
I use to load mixed head stamps on my Hornady and I was always stopping to check a piece of brass that had more resistance to priming to see if it had a crimped primer pocket.
That slowed me down a lot.
I started sorting all my brass by head stamp several years ago and now I know how to expect my primer to react to priming on that press within the first 50 cases through the press.
That took some of the confusion, when priming, out of the operation for me.

I second this. double down on S&B brass has it's own feel when sizing and priming. S&B even gets an extra shot of "one shot" (9mm is my primary S&B brass) I've sorted by headstamp since the inception of my reloading and also find that it makes the entire feel of the machine that much more in tune with any noticeable hicups along the way. Great point and one to be considered.
 
The one consistent cause of the priming frustration was not setting up their priming systems correctly and/or not understanding that neither system was plug-n-play.

I've found that my frustrations in priming on a progressive, for my two main calibers (.38Spl and .45ACP), were greatly reduced by going to Starline brass

Thank you....best answer so far, but I do appreciate the discussion.
 
Sorting cases by head stamp helps a lot also. Learning what brands of brass has tight primer pockets does also. (S&B) for one.

That took some of the confusion, when priming, out of the operation for me.

Although I only use a single stage press, I found presorting helps the "feel" of priming on press. Thanks
 
I've found that my frustrations in priming on a progressive, for my two main calibers (.38Spl and .45ACP), were greatly reduced by going to Starline brass
Great stuff.

A progressive press means 1 pull per loaded round. Not priming on a progressive press makes it a semi-progressive press.
 
Howdy

I have two Hornady Lock and Load AP presses. I keep one set up for Large Pistol primers and the other one for Small Pistol primers. I do most of my loading these days on the Large primers machine. I also do most of my loading with Black Powder, can't remember the last time I loaded Smokeless.

I use Federal Large Pistol and Federal Small Pistol primers pretty exclusively, and most of my brass, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 all comes from Starline, so there is a good deal of consistency there.

I suspect with all progressive presses, one has to get used to the feel of the machine. I do not have any experience on any other brands of progressive presses, but I am quite used to the feel of my Hornady machines. I can tell by the feedback from the handle when a primer is going to seat smooth as poop through a goose or when one is going to hang up a little bit. I have not noticed any taper to the profile of Federal primers, I will have to look the next time I fire up the machine.

BP loading tends to be a little bit messy, powder dust and the occasional spilled grains tend to accumulate around the press during a loading session. So I dust everything off before each loading session.

Before every loading session I make sure the Primer Pusher Thingy is screwed securely into the machine. It tends to loosen over time. I also take it apart every once in a while and clean out any dust or other foreign material that has accumulated inside over time. Too much dreck inside this assembly can keep the Pusher part from retracting properly after each cycle, which can prevent the next primer from sliding into position.

pmEjpWJAj.jpg




I also make sure the Primer Slider Thingy is clean. I pop the Slider itself off and blow out the slot it travels in with canned air. The arrow on the left is pointing to the Primer Pusher Thingy popped up into position correctly. Yeah, there are a few stray grains of powder in this photo.

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When the lever pulls the ram all the way down, the bottom of the Primer Pusher Thingy contacts the base of the press, pushing the Pusher Thingy up to push a primer into a primer pocket. I noticed years ago that the bottom of the Pusher was digging a divot into the aluminum frame of the press. This was affecting how deep primers were seating. So I glued a steel washer to the base of the press for the Pusher to push against. No more divots in the aluminum and primers all get seated consistently.

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Years ago I discovered that sometimes gravity alone is not enough to keep the primers flowing down the primer tube. Sometimes they would hang up. So I added a Gravity Assist Device. It is a piece of brass rod about .198 in diameter. I place it on top of the column of primers in the primer tube to keep them flowing. I have a Sharpie mark around the tube to indicate when the amount of primers left in the tube is approaching zero. I have a smaller diameter rod for the Small Pistol Primers press. In this photo I do not have the standard Hornady powder measure mounted on the press, that is a Lyman Black Powder measure that gets used most of the time on this press. I think Dillon provides a similar Gravity Assist Device?

pna5M7QFj.jpg



The other thing is, I don't know about other presses, but there is enough slop in the Hornady shell plates that the shells can shift ever so slightly in position. This is usually not a problem, the spring retainer keeps the shells pretty consistent in position. Sometimes however a shell will shift just enough that it bumps into the bottom of the sizing/decap die on the way up. I can always feel when this happens so I stop the stroke before any damage is done to the case mouth. 44-40 and 38-40 brass is very thin at the case mouth and bumping into the bottom of the die can potentially crumple a neck, ruining the case. That slight shift in position in the shell plate may be responsible for a primer not feeding into the primer pocket smooth as poop through a goose, I don't really know.

Anyway, those are the tricks I use with my Hornday presses to keep from grinding my teeth when seating primers.

Editorial Note: Regarding depriming off the press and cleaning out primer pockets separately: I have been loading Black Powder cartridges on this press for probably over 15 years now. I NEVER deprime off the machine. It defeats the purpose of the machine. Trust me, Black Powder leaves more residue behind in a primer pocket than Unique, my favorite Smokeless powder. I have never experienced enough dreck building up in the bottom of a primer pocket in all these years that I felt the necessity to deprime and clean out primer pockets separately. I just run everything through the press in the standard manner the way it was designed to be used.

P.S. I have never experienced a tilted or upside down primer on my Hornady machines. The Gravity Assist Device probably helps with this. If a primer was fed into the primer tube upside down it is because I used the Primer Picker Upper Tube to pick it up upside down. I am pretty careful that all my primers are oriented properly before I pick them up. I use a standard old RCBS primer tray with the concentric circles to orient all the primers correctly. I am not old enough yet to not notice that a primer is upside down when I pick it up. As I say, the primer feed system on my Hornady presses has never flipped a primer upside down.

However I did once encounter a commercially loaded 12 gauge shotgun shell with the primer pressed in horizontally. Do not remember what brand it was.
 
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True, Dillon seems to be the press with the least priming problems of all I've read. But, my question was not about which press is better, as your above statement implies, but what is the REASON for the problems. Just saying lack of quality is simplistic.
And I agree, this is not a discussion of quality. That discussion would quickly degrade in a "color war". I really believe that all the American presses on the market today are of extremely high quality. So the main issue lies in design. As a retired mechanical engineer with 25 years of design experience this explanation may get you near your answer....

• Primer systems mainly fail because of "feeding issues". Primer feeds fall into 2 main groups: 1) flat side-by-side reservoirs, and 2) vertical tube reservoirs. Several machines experiment with the flat primer reservoirs and the issue seems to be "log jams", that is, simply getting primers into single-file to advance toward the primer ram. Even with external excitation (shaking), it's difficult to get a multitude of side-by-side primers to form a single-file line. The tube feeds are definitely superior because 1) the primers are pre-aligned, and 2) because the vertical stacking allows the natural weight of the column of primers to further assist the flow. Flat reservoirs work great in hand-held priming devices because the operator can look and shake on an individual basis, but a machine can't do that. So if you're shopping for a press, look for one with a (near) vertical tubular primer reservoir.

• Second is adjustment of the mechanism. A novice might look at the primer shuttle on a $100 press and the primer shuttle on a $550 press and assume they are equivalent. In fact, the physical shuttles may be identical, but the one with adjustments will work better. And therein lies a not-so-obvious added cost for the press buyer. When you manufacture a product, if you stop and add a tapped hole for an adjustment screw you'll have the cost of drilling, the cost of the tap, the cost of the screw and lock nut, and then finally the cost of labor to install the screw and make a final adjustment. That may add as much as $10 per adjustment to the cost of producing the product. Now, it is possible to get a reloading press to come out of the molding process with very, very accurately placed features. So maybe the primer feed works good right out of the box. But what about after 20,000 primers ? Won't all that back and forth cause 'break in' wear ? So then, the press wears to an out-of-alignment condition. At that point, if you didn't pay for an adjustment (or can't add your own), you'll start to experience primer feed errors. At first the errors are issues like flipped primers, and as time goes on this turns into crushed primers or worse.

Hope this helps.
 
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• Second is adjustment of the mechanism. A novice might look at the primer shuttle on a $100 press and the primer shuttle on a $550 press and assume they are equivalent. In fact, the physical shuttles may be identical, but the one with adjustments will work better. And therein lies a not-so-obvious added cost for the press buyer. When you manufacture a product, if you stop and add a tapped hole for an adjustment screw you'll have the cost of drilling, the cost of the tap, the cost of the screw and lock nut, and then finally the cost of labor to install the screw and make a final adjustment. That may add as much as $10 per adjustment to the cost of producing the product. Now, it is possible to get a reloading press to come out of the molding process with very, very accurately placed features. So maybe the primer feed works good right out of the box. But what about after 20,000 primers ? Won't all that back and forth cause 'break in" wear ? So then, the press wears to an out-of-alignment condition. At that point, if you didn't pay for an adjustment, or can't add your own adjustment, you'll start to experience primer feed errors. At first the errors are issues like flipped primers, and as time goes on this turns into crushed primers or worse.

Excellent comments from another retired engineer.

By the way, I love your three legged avatar. It looks like the triskeles from the coat of arms of the Isle of Man. Any significance for you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_the_Isle_of_Man
 
I’m trying to figure out what press would have a “rotary” style?

The 650 is rotary feed, the complaint people had about it was that it always fed primers but that was fixable for set up. Now only the mark 7 presses are rotary, that I know of.
 
And I agree, this is not a discussion of quality. That discussion would quickly degrade in a "color war". I really believe that all the American presses on the market today are of extremely high quality. So the main issue lies in design. As a retired mechanical engineer with 25 years of design experience this explanation may get you near your answer....

• Primer systems mainly fail because of "feeding issues". Primer feeds fall into 2 main groups: 1) flat side-by-side reservoirs, and 2) vertical tube reservoirs. Several machines experiment with the flat primer reservoirs and the issue seems to be "log jams", that is, simply getting primers into single-file to advance toward the primer ram. Even with external excitation (shaking), it's difficult to get a multitude of side-by-side primers to form a single-file line. The tube feeds are definitely superior because 1) the primers are pre-aligned, and 2) because the vertical stacking allows the natural weight of the column of primers to further assist the flow. Flat reservoirs work great in hand-held priming devices because the operator can look and shake on an individual basis, but a machine can't do that. So if you're shopping for a press, look for one with a (near) vertical tubular primer reservoir.

• Second is adjustment of the mechanism. A novice might look at the primer shuttle on a $100 press and the primer shuttle on a $550 press and assume they are equivalent. In fact, the physical shuttles may be identical, but the one with adjustments will work better. And therein lies a not-so-obvious added cost for the press buyer. When you manufacture a product, if you stop and add a tapped hole for an adjustment screw you'll have the cost of drilling, the cost of the tap, the cost of the screw and lock nut, and then finally the cost of labor to install the screw and make a final adjustment. That may add as much as $10 per adjustment to the cost of producing the product. Now, it is possible to get a reloading press to come out of the molding process with very, very accurately placed features. So maybe the primer feed works good right out of the box. But what about after 20,000 primers ? Won't all that back and forth cause 'break in' wear ? So then, the press wears to an out-of-alignment condition. At that point, if you didn't pay for an adjustment (or can't add your own), you'll start to experience primer feed errors. At first the errors are issues like flipped primers, and as time goes on this turns into crushed primers or worse.

Hope this helps.

Good synopsis. RCBS tried a third system, to address safety issues with tubes, the APS strip system. It works very well for some of us, not so well for others.

There are three things that determine which experience you have with it or any priming system for that matter.

1. Bulls on the lever. If you power through strokes when something, anything, hangs, then with tubes you might just mangle your primer. Worst case the whole tube goes through the ceiling. With APS worse case is 3 primers might go boom, instead of a whole tube.

2. Cleanliness and warped strips. If you neglect cleanliness on your press....especially your primer system (including the insides of tubes), you are most likely to experience hangs and #1. Or in the case of APS, and you refill empty strips that aren't stored horizontally flat, stored vertically, they warp a little and can cause hangs and APS's version of #1. (don't use warped APS strips, toss them)

3. Test Adjustment before a big loading session.....any priming system......another factor that requires patience. If you have none, then prime off press.
 
The only thing that gives me fits when priming, on a progressive or otherwise, is crimped primers pockets on military brass. I don't see this much on pistol brass more on 5.56, and I run all of it through a swager before running it through the reloader.

My Dillon 550 needs the primer cup holder cleaned every 50 or so rounds. Just a quick swipe with the finger takes care of it.
 
Totally off the subject of the thread....

The 650 is rotary feed, the complaint people had about it was that it always fed primers, but that was fixable for set up.
If by this you mean primers kept coming, even when you didn't want, then 'Yes' that's true.

But an Ebay seller named Snowshooze came up with a neat item called the Primer Switch, which allows the user to turn the primer advancing cam On & Off. That little piece cures the issue.
 
I have an auto breech lock pro, actually like it quite a bit. It didn't come with the normal safety prime all of my other lee presses have, so I ordered it....

I think I spent a total of 45 minutes on it before I came to the conclusion they designed the new version intentionally to not work, I think it's still off to the side of the bench where I left it that day. Might take it to the range to use as a target.

It wasn't really automatic to begin with, but the old version was at least usable to a degree. All I can figure, lee thought there were to many improvements on the press. They had to make something really, really bad to keep things balanced.
I use the safety prime that I got with my Breech Lock Challenger single stage kit. I had to put a washer under the plastic mount that holds the safety prime and then play with the alignment a while. I have it working now about 95% reliable. I still may have to actuate it two or three times now and then to feed a primer, but I haven't had a dropped primer in a while after monkeying with it and adding the washer.
The problem I have with my ABLP is that the case does not align perfectly with the primer ram. It is a little clunky. Not sure why the ABLP arm is out of alignment because priming on my LEE single stage press works great, so they know how it is supposed to work.
 
The problem I have with my ABLP is that the case does not align perfectly with the primer ram.

The same problem that the Loadmaster has with 9mm. That’s because they use the same shell plate for 9mm and 40 S&W, makes it so the smaller diameter 9mm case can be off center in the shell plate. I cured this by putting an extra powder die I had in station 2 to center the case in the shell plate. It’s a prime on ram up stroke press though, so it’s in the die as it’s primed.
 
The same problem that the Loadmaster has with 9mm. That’s because they use the same shell plate for 9mm and 40 S&W, makes it so the smaller diameter 9mm case can be off center in the shell plate. I cured this by putting an extra powder die I had in station 2 to center the case in the shell plate. It’s a prime on ram up stroke press though, so it’s in the die as it’s primed.
Interesting. I hadn't thought of slop in the shellplate as the issue. Maybe I'll put something on it to make a tighter fit and run a test.
 
I have a Redding T-7 that I could prime with but never considered doing that. The reason is I think that would add time and it's something that I can do much faster with my RCBS bench priming tool to my reloading.

+ 1 on the above.

That is the method that I have come to use exclusively. Every six months I toy with the idea of buying the Redding on press priming system ($55) but the system I now use is more than satisfactory, AND the comments about the amount of jiggering needed to efficiently use the Redding on press priming system backs me off.
 
Interesting. I hadn't thought of slop in the shellplate as the issue. Maybe I'll put something on it to make a tighter fit and run a test.
If you figure out a fix, would love to know about it. I had forgotten about the slop that Jmorris mentioned, I quit using the lee #19 shell holder because of it years ago, don't really have that option with the shell plate.

The ABLP has another unique feature to add to the priming woes, the priming arm actually indexes and is supported by a plastic tab. Even if the newer safety prime wasn't garbage on its own, there's a lot going against it working on this press.
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