Programmed to be anti-gun
- Thread starter Gouranga
- Start date
- Status
who says i'm a Palin supporter? and why do you think NY is any safer than any other state because of additional hoops to jump through? In Mi, you have to pass a NICS check before you could buy a gun, then go back and get every pistol registered on a different permit. Or you could take a class ONCE and bypass it from then on, with a CHP.
How are NY permit rules any safer? HOW? By wasting my time with an interview with the sheriff, and a redundant background check and fingerprinting?
How are NY permit rules any safer? HOW? By wasting my time with an interview with the sheriff, and a redundant background check and fingerprinting?
Deanimator
Member
The West was safer than NYC in 1876, in 1976, and in 2010.
The police have no legal duty to protect individuals.
The police have no legal liability when they fail to protect individuals.
The police have virtually no physical ability to protect individuals.
Protect yourself or don't protected at all.
The New York motto, "We don't have to protect you and we won't let you protect yourself."
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
lopezni said:
You do know that you've posted something that is completely untrue don't you? Of course you do.
Your chances of being a victim of violent crime in the old west was much less than today.
You're just making stuff up as you go now are you? Standard anti debating technique 101 here......
People who have to lie to make their point tend to have no point to make.
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benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I'm a middle-of-the-road independent, pro-choice, pro-gay-rights, and have considerably more posts on Democratic Underground than I do here. I also hold an NC carry license (valid in ~30 states) and shoot USPSA with one of those eeee-villl rifles with a protruding handgrip and magazine.
Support for new restrictions on the lawful and responsible use of guns---whether you're talking about banning rifle handgrips and magazines that stick out, or restricting carry licenses (or handgun ownership in general) to the wealthy or politically connected via fees and red tape, has nothing to do with where one falls on the left-right political spectrum, and everything to do with one's view of authority vs. individual civil liberties.
If you don't like handguns or modern-looking rifles, don't own one. But between three and four times as many Americans lawfully and responsibly own handguns as hunt, and we will keep them, thanks.
Gouranga
Member
Are you talking the old west in the movies or reality? Even the wild west was not the wild west. When they reintroduced the concealed carry laws in NC the argument AGAINST it was it would turn the streets in NC into the "Wild West". it has been law for more than a decade now. We have more than half a million permits issues in NC and tons more legally owned handguns. We have YET to have the wild west. We have yet to see what you have suggested would happen.
In fact in every state that they instituted CCW the anti's preached the "Wild West" argument and in EVERY state it failed to happen. What DID happen was cases of people being able to defend themselves and surviving attacks that likely would have killed them.
The fear mongers preached the same to me in NY and I believed it. I know better now. I walk the streets of NC with many others who carry concealed weapons and I feel safer the MORE of these permits that are issued. Had a guy in Charlotte tonight that shot a robber in the neck. A robber who likely has put dozens in the hospital already. Fortunately the robber survived and is in police custody. Without the CCW law, this robber would be free to hit another person tomorrow.
I would say this, if you REALLY believe this we have tons of states with concealed carry, show me 1, a single 1 where concealed carry holders have increased rates of murders, attacks, gun fights, etc...we have more than 40 states over more than a decade with these permits, WHERE is it? Where is the wild west? Really, the fear, the threats of wild west, totally untrue, totally unsupported by facts, totally false propaganda.
In fact in every state that they instituted CCW the anti's preached the "Wild West" argument and in EVERY state it failed to happen. What DID happen was cases of people being able to defend themselves and surviving attacks that likely would have killed them.
The fear mongers preached the same to me in NY and I believed it. I know better now. I walk the streets of NC with many others who carry concealed weapons and I feel safer the MORE of these permits that are issued. Had a guy in Charlotte tonight that shot a robber in the neck. A robber who likely has put dozens in the hospital already. Fortunately the robber survived and is in police custody. Without the CCW law, this robber would be free to hit another person tomorrow.
I would say this, if you REALLY believe this we have tons of states with concealed carry, show me 1, a single 1 where concealed carry holders have increased rates of murders, attacks, gun fights, etc...we have more than 40 states over more than a decade with these permits, WHERE is it? Where is the wild west? Really, the fear, the threats of wild west, totally untrue, totally unsupported by facts, totally false propaganda.
Deanimator
Member
Gun control in the United States has always been about keeping the "wrong" people from having guns. The "wrong" people have in the past included:
Blacks
Indians
Italians
Slavs
Mexicans
Irish
Catholics
Jews
To this you have added Muslims.
The history of gun control in the United States has been the history of racism, religious bigotry and ethnic prejudice. You've certainly done what you could to uphold that "tradition" here.
blaisenguns
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2009
- Messages
- 453
-Lopezni
Whitman? Oswald?
-Lopezni
So first try to alter the debate by insulting us,
than incorrectly paint the 19th century american west as the cruel brutal place seen in hollywood, and the video games you, yourself vilify. Unless you mean an era that was ripe with opertunity, economic growth and when people were mostly curteous and law abiding and above all self reliant. If that is what you mean when you talk of "The Wild West" than yes I would love to live in a state that is like "The Wild West", were I could walk down the street without fear of being mugged (which didnt happen back then), trust my neighbors, and the government is small, than dang it lets go back to that. 
Yes there was crime and murder in "The Wild West" but it was less prevelant than today, what YOU know of "The Wild West" is TV, movies and myth, please sir, educate yourself.-Lopezni
Sorry I have nothing to add but this:
-rattletrap1970
Thanks for saying that rattletrap.
-Lopezni
That is just a d*** racist comment sir, and I think you should post an apology
. Almost all muslims are good people, and such a comment has no place on a forum such as this or in a civil debate. Educate yourself sir.-Lopezni
WHO ARE YOU :banghead: to make such a determination? What gives YOU the right? Yes I advocate safe responsible firearms ownership but this country is founded so that we may all enjoy "the persuit of happiness." and yes some people are not so bright, but they have the right to work hard, earn money and use it to legally obtain anything they want. THAT is the country in which we live. Educate yourself sir.
-waterhouse
Thank you waterhouse, very eloquent and well thought out.
I am sorry but you need to be called out on these things, Lopezni. You are basing your argument on nonesense, and I for one do not appreciate it. Yes I know I am a zealot. I am passionate about this subject, and when these arguments come up I often think of what the otherside thinks of us. In many ways we are like them, we will never change our mind on this subject, and there is nothing wrong with that. What this forum, and this country needs is mutual understanding that each persons opinion is there own to be had, and both sides should be able to sit down and CIVILY and INTELLIGENTLY discuss the subject. I would say alomst all of us are PRO-Gun zealots and it is wrong to just say "why bother", and labelling the otherside as ignorant and wrong. Yes that IS in many cases the fact, but it is worth the time to make the argument, and to have a civil discussion, but just remember that is what THEY think of US.
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I don't recognize NYC as part of my state.
Oswald didn't do it. Have you ever shot a 6.5 Carcano, it is the worst rifle ever made. The Italians at the beginning of production thought 6.5mm was .268. So the bullets keyholed coming out of the barrel. The ones after that weren't much better. So, you have to believe he got lucky and got a good one and happened to be the greatest sniper ever. Mob did it.
actually I obtained a 4.0 in American History 1776-1865 and I currently have a 4.0 in American History 1865 to present. I can send you my transcripts if you like.
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KarenTOC
Member
Some problems just solve themselves.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Yet NYC has the laws you advocate. Concealed carry only for the wealthy, famous, and politically connected, and handgun ownership in general limited to socially connected people with plenty of disposable income who work at jobs with generous leave policies, and with either the determination to plow through official intimidation and red tape, or the money to pay a lawyer to do it for them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy_T7D2-Y3o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1ayL8RXJTs&feature=video_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOQ2oebB2M&feature=related
Italian bullets WERE .268. It only keyholes if you try to reload for it with undersized U.S.-made bullets, from what I've been able to determine. Milsurp ammo would have been .268.
Those videos show hits with a 6.5 Carcano at 420 and 650 yards. So I don't think hitting a slow moving, non-traversing target from a benchrest at 50 to 88 yards with the same rifle and a 4x scope would make someone "the greatest sniper ever."
You have completed one U.S. history class and are taking another at this moment? Are you in college now?
In your "1865-present" class, do they present data on the Western homicide rates and compare them to the rates back east? I doubt most survey classes would go into that level of detail. If you do look up those crime rates on your own time, though, you will find that the "Wild West" was not so wild from a violence standpoint. The West may have seemed wild *morally* to stodgy neo-Puritan Easterners, but it was not the Schützenfest that Hollywood portrays it to have been.
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NinjaFeint
Member
So many things wrong here.
First off, shame on you for giving people on here another reason to think those of us in the Northeast have a learning disability when it comes to firearms and firearms rights.
Next being from the state of New York you should know sometimes you have to be in less desirable areas out of necessity. You should also know that dangers aren't entirely bound by socioeconomic parameters. This is why always being prepared is a good thing. My car is new and dependable with run flat tires but I still keep my Triple A card handy just in case.
I would also like to inform you that some of us who enjoy videogames also have a firm grasp on reality. I own guns and play videogames, these are two separate and distinct parts of my life. Just because I play Modern Warfare (because it's fun as heck) does in no way shape or form mean I want any part in any violent encounter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now to the OP's point...
I grew up in a liberal state and believed cops and bad guys where the only folks who had guns. This changed when I reached a high school and started to seriously develop my own world views and opinions. I actually get more angry about folks who blindly follow an anti upbringing just because they have no views of there own than the people who are truly anti.
Ryder
Member
My Canadian friends are programmed like that. Everything they know about guns they learned on TV. That means they knew nothing about gun safety before meeting me.
I take them shooting to the range when they come down. They like the thrill of doing something that is so "extremely dangerous and anti-social"
Hahaha, I am such a bad influence. They've learned a lot about guns but I don't think they will ever be comfortable rejecting the misinformation they've been fed their whole lives.
I take them shooting to the range when they come down. They like the thrill of doing something that is so "extremely dangerous and anti-social"
Hahaha, I am such a bad influence. They've learned a lot about guns but I don't think they will ever be comfortable rejecting the misinformation they've been fed their whole lives.
armoredman
Member
May I interject something? I live in your "Wild West", (or wild Southwest), and I am safer here than where you are. I have walked the streets of Tombstone, and lived to tell the tale! I also work with violent criminals daily, and you are extremely sadly misinformed if you think your 4 references and an investigator interview has anything with keeping guns away from criminals. Sorry, but it doesn't, not one bit. Even in places where firearms are completely outlawed for civilian ownership, guns keep popping up. Criminals, by definition, break the law.
BTW, are you in college working at a gunshop part time, or taking night school? Your grade comment inspires me to ask that. See, years ago I worked a GUNshop, a real one, with an indoor range, where we sold all kinds of guns, rented them too, (for range use, not take home for the weekend, just to make THAT clear.), never had any issues. I would have to say, if you had worked there, Liz might have fired you, for the racist comments if nothing else. I hope you continue to learn, and grow in years and experiance, and maybe, just maybe, you might see our point of view. If not, oh well, have fun in your world, and I'll have fun in mine. Word to the wise, you may not want to visit AZ, as we are actually considering letting ordinary citizens carry concealed without a permit at all. Maybe.
I also work with violent criminals daily, and you are extremely sadly misinformed if you think your 4 references and an investigator interview has anything with keeping guns away from criminals. Sorry, but it doesn't, not one bit. Even in places where firearms are completely outlawed for civilian ownership, guns keep popping up. Criminals, by definition, break the law.BTW, are you in college working at a gunshop part time, or taking night school? Your grade comment inspires me to ask that. See, years ago I worked a GUNshop, a real one, with an indoor range, where we sold all kinds of guns, rented them too, (for range use, not take home for the weekend, just to make THAT clear.
), never had any issues. I would have to say, if you had worked there, Liz might have fired you, for the racist comments if nothing else. I hope you continue to learn, and grow in years and experiance, and maybe, just maybe, you might see our point of view. If not, oh well, have fun in your world, and I'll have fun in mine. Word to the wise, you may not want to visit AZ, as we are actually considering letting ordinary citizens carry concealed without a permit at all. Maybe. cleardiddion
Member
Wouldn't give up my handguns if you paid me. Well, if you paid me enough I could upgrade! You can trust yourself to luck, but the way I see it my butt's worth protecting. I may or may not be responding to the quote with much disdain and perhaps a loss of respect for the individual.
TexasBill
Member
Wow! It's hard to know where to start. Fortunately the issue of the FN 5.7 has been addressed (sorry, no cop-killer ammo despite the Brady Bunch claims). However we are left with claims about bolt-action rifles and shotguns. Some have already correctly responded with the names of Whitman and Oswald, but nobody has mentioned that the two kids responsible for Columbine were carrying sawed-off shotguns. One of the murderers who killed the Clutter family (as related in Truman Capote's In Cold Blood) used a shotgun. Shotguns were used alongside Tommy Guns in the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. Kip Kunkel used a Ruger 10/22 rifle in addition to his two handguns to shoot 29 people in Oregon (admittedly, the 10/22 is a semi-automatic rifle). Lyle and Erik Menendez used a shotgun to murder their parents. William Davis was sentenced to death last month in Oklahoma for murdering three women with a shotgun. You beginning to get the picture?
I don't want a rifle for home defense; there's too much likelihood of over-penetration and danger to my family and neighbors who are really nice people. A shotgun is handy but it's overrated; too many times, it's where you're not (most violent home invasions around here happen before bedtime). In addition, I want to have a hand free for a flashlight, cell phone or to change out a magazine. Yes, racking the slide is a scary sound, but it also lets the BG know where you are. I can keep a handgun with me, either on my person or on my desk, ready for immediate and warning-noise-free use, all the time.
I do know the caliber (both bullet diameter and chambering) for all my firearms. I also know how to check to see if a gun is loaded and do it religiously. I do keep my guns and ammunition under lock and key. Every member of my family knows how to safely handle a gun and shoot a gun. The fact the people of your acquaintance do not is more a reflection on them than it is on handguns, but if you want to surround yourself with idiots, that's your privilege.
I have no fantasies of killing people but I also have no illusions that crime can't happen to me or my loved ones or that the police will arrive in the nick of time. No criticism of the police; there are millions of people in the greater Houston Metro area and thousands of cops in an area larger than the state of Rhode Island. Do the math. The criminals get to pick the time and place and, all too often, the cops aren't even called until the festivities have come to an end.
I don't want a rifle for home defense; there's too much likelihood of over-penetration and danger to my family and neighbors who are really nice people. A shotgun is handy but it's overrated; too many times, it's where you're not (most violent home invasions around here happen before bedtime). In addition, I want to have a hand free for a flashlight, cell phone or to change out a magazine. Yes, racking the slide is a scary sound, but it also lets the BG know where you are. I can keep a handgun with me, either on my person or on my desk, ready for immediate and warning-noise-free use, all the time.
I do know the caliber (both bullet diameter and chambering) for all my firearms. I also know how to check to see if a gun is loaded and do it religiously. I do keep my guns and ammunition under lock and key. Every member of my family knows how to safely handle a gun and shoot a gun. The fact the people of your acquaintance do not is more a reflection on them than it is on handguns, but if you want to surround yourself with idiots, that's your privilege.
I have no fantasies of killing people but I also have no illusions that crime can't happen to me or my loved ones or that the police will arrive in the nick of time. No criticism of the police; there are millions of people in the greater Houston Metro area and thousands of cops in an area larger than the state of Rhode Island. Do the math. The criminals get to pick the time and place and, all too often, the cops aren't even called until the festivities have come to an end.
LS240
Member
So everyone who feels the need to wear a seatbelt obviously wants to get into a car accident right? Pure ignorance.
I live in a really nice neighbourhood. The DA of my county lives a couple blocks over. A popular local radio DJ is also in my neighbourhood. I personally know of several doctors within rock throwing distance of my house. As you can tell, this is not the ghetto. But guess what? Within a few days of my moving in a couple years ago a family was murdered in cold blood on their front lawn while packing their car for a vacation. This was about a block over from my house. I heard those gunshots that night. And yes, it was a random event, not personal. But I'm in a safe area so that kinda stuff never happens right?
Wake up and realize those who carry don't so because they want to get into a gunfight. If they did, they would carry a rifle, not a handgun. People carry handguns because it gives them a modicum of protection in the unlikely event they are ever targeted by a low life who cares more about his next fix than who's family members he murders. Those kinda people don't just stay in "bad areas". They strike anywhere and everywhere and you never know until it happens to you. And in that case, it is definitely a good thing to have a handgun on you. And if it never happens, what have you lost carrying that pistol? Maybe a few more calories from the extra couple pounds you haul around every day?
Deanimator
Member
Some people don't recognize the Holocaust as a real event or the earth as round.
I'll bet you have some interesting "theories" about 9/11 too.
Clearly you're another victim of our public schools.
And you didn't answer my question. Let me pose it again:
If an Islamic cleric isn't suitable as a character reference, is a Protestant minister or a Catholic priest?
Gouranga
Member
To add to your American history knowledge consider these stats:
* In Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year.
* In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, not a single person was killed in 1869 or 1870.
Zooming forward over a century to 2007, a quick look at Uniform Crime Report statistics shows us the following regarding the aforementioned gun control “paradise” cities of the east:
* DC – 183 Murders (31 per 100,000 residents)
* New York – 494 Murders (6 per 100,000 residents)
* Baltimore – 281 Murders (45 per 100,000 residents)
* Newark – 104 Murders (37 per 100,000 residents)
-- from "Frontier Violence: Another Look"
So in fact the gun control Meccas of the US the murder rate is HIGHER than your Wild West.
I doubt any of this is changing your mind. I would point out that the folks here have pretty much proven my points and provided ample evidence against all of the characterizations being thrown out. You can choose to look at it rationally or ignore it. It all up to you and it is a free country.
Some good info in here guys, really great info.
* In Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year.
* In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, not a single person was killed in 1869 or 1870.
Zooming forward over a century to 2007, a quick look at Uniform Crime Report statistics shows us the following regarding the aforementioned gun control “paradise” cities of the east:
* DC – 183 Murders (31 per 100,000 residents)
* New York – 494 Murders (6 per 100,000 residents)
* Baltimore – 281 Murders (45 per 100,000 residents)
* Newark – 104 Murders (37 per 100,000 residents)
-- from "Frontier Violence: Another Look"
So in fact the gun control Meccas of the US the murder rate is HIGHER than your Wild West.
I doubt any of this is changing your mind. I would point out that the folks here have pretty much proven my points and provided ample evidence against all of the characterizations being thrown out. You can choose to look at it rationally or ignore it. It all up to you and it is a free country.
Some good info in here guys, really great info.
Gouranga
Member
I will say this guys, growing near in Buffalo, NY we REALLY tried to pretend NYC was not part of the state. There is a lot of resentment about how taxes dollars are distributed. So on this point, I can absolutely see where he is coming from. It is however part of NY State. Because of its population it drives most of the laws in the state, so ignoring it does you no good.
If the case before the SCOTUS comes through as they are predicting you may be seeing the NYC and perhaps NYS gun laws changing within a few years and maybe the programming will begin to decline as well.
I just do not understand the rationale behind the guy who says HIS hunting rifle is safe and HE is a safe gun handler but nobody else deserves the right to own anything except what he has and nobody can possibly be as safe as him. Despite my programming in NY I have found MOST gun owners are extremely safe and respectful of the responsibility a firearm brings. I have found that I do not even notice MOST people carrying concealed because they carry safely, and they don't pull their guns except in EXTREME circumstances. I have also read enough news to see how much safer we are as more and more folks carry. The programming is tough to overcome sometimes but luckily all it takes is truth to do so.
LRS_Ranger
Member
All I can say after 4 pages of fruitless displaying of logic and facts is what my old man taught me.. "Don't bother arguing with a fool, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." lopezni: Remember that the same bill of rights that gives you the right to make illogical and racist statements about what rights others should have is the same bill of rights is the same document that gives me the right to defend myself the way I see fit.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
From Post #4: "I've lived in NY my whole live and I have never been in a situation or seen one where having a handgun would've been necessary."
(Old joke: Q: "Have you lived here all your life? A: Not yet.")
I'll be 76 years old, come July. I've never had a major car wreck, but I have insurance. I've never had my house burn down nor been sued for some liability around my home, but I have insurance.
Any gun of whatever sort can be used in self-defense: It's just another form of insurance against an unlikely event.
"It's not the odds; it's the stakes."
I'll probably live maybe another ten years, and then you guys won't have to put up with me. Does anybody here want to put up a million-dollar bet as a guarantee that between now and the Big Goodbye, no threat will come upon me?
No, I've yet to need a handgun for a self-defense use. However, while I was away from home on business trips during my twenty years with my first wife, she had four separate occasions to be comforted by her Ruger Blackhawk, two of which were--shall we say--"dicey". But, the Blackhawk won the stare-downs.
The nice thing about a handgun is that a woman can hold her towel wrapped around her with one hand while facing down an idiot, with her handgun in the other. Your wife or girlfriend might like to consider that; mine did...
And even low-rent hoi polloi have the absolute right of self-defense against gratuitous violence.
I saw an earlier comment about bolt actions, and a reference to Whitman. Sing small around me on that one. I'm like that feller who said, "Hell, I was there." I don't read about it; I write about it from first-hand knowledge. (And I already have, if you search here or at TFL.)
I've been around this gun-argument since 1967. I've heard every notion known to mankind, pro or con. I've yet to hear an argument in favor of restricting honest people which had the intellectual competency of a mouse in heat.
(Old joke: Q: "Have you lived here all your life? A: Not yet.")
I'll be 76 years old, come July. I've never had a major car wreck, but I have insurance. I've never had my house burn down nor been sued for some liability around my home, but I have insurance.
Any gun of whatever sort can be used in self-defense: It's just another form of insurance against an unlikely event.
"It's not the odds; it's the stakes."
I'll probably live maybe another ten years, and then you guys won't have to put up with me. Does anybody here want to put up a million-dollar bet as a guarantee that between now and the Big Goodbye, no threat will come upon me?
No, I've yet to need a handgun for a self-defense use. However, while I was away from home on business trips during my twenty years with my first wife, she had four separate occasions to be comforted by her Ruger Blackhawk, two of which were--shall we say--"dicey". But, the Blackhawk won the stare-downs.
The nice thing about a handgun is that a woman can hold her towel wrapped around her with one hand while facing down an idiot, with her handgun in the other. Your wife or girlfriend might like to consider that; mine did...
And even low-rent hoi polloi have the absolute right of self-defense against gratuitous violence.
I saw an earlier comment about bolt actions, and a reference to Whitman. Sing small around me on that one. I'm like that feller who said, "Hell, I was there."
I don't read about it; I write about it from first-hand knowledge. (And I already have, if you search here or at TFL.)I've been around this gun-argument since 1967. I've heard every notion known to mankind, pro or con. I've yet to hear an argument in favor of restricting honest people which had the intellectual competency of a mouse in heat.
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