Prohibited Persons Beliefs

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... regarding the DUI stuff... in order to get a DUI felony... you either have repeat DUIs or you cause a serious accident with a heavy DUI.... in neither case you are responsible enough to own a firearm - given that you have just proven that you knowingly and willingly ignore the law and endanger the lives of others...

sorry - but overall it's NOT easy to get a felony and being convicted.

yes - there are some cases with someone being screwed over and getting a felony - but c'mon... how many hunters have gotten animal cruelty felonies for posting a picture of a dead elk? any examples?

or how many teenagers have gotten a felony for shop-lifting a 6pack?
 
I agree that there should be some way for convicted felons to regain rights. Maybe something like 10 years of no arrests equals restoration. There's a lot more to this though.

There are some who say we should not let them back on the street if they're still dangerous. You're forgetting there is an 8A which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.

Keep in mind there are plenty of offenders who have committed the felony but get to plea to a lesser offense thereby beating the felony conviction.

There are those who say drug offenders should have their rights restored. If you are convicted of a drug felony you are not a casual user. You're contributing somehow to the drug business even if you have never done anything violent. There is the argument of legalization which some say will remove the violent crime associated with the drug business. Do you really think that all the gangbanger street dealers will quit their life of crime, get PHDs and become scientists? That's laughable! They will direct their violence to other criminal pursuits. There are also those street dealers that have shot 14 people but they don't get caught for that. They get caught dealing and do time for drug offenses.
 
Nor do I consider MADD "extremists"; there is no such thing as a "little" DUI. DUI is a crime that indicates either wanton disregard for the lives of others or the inability to judge when one is doing so.
Your premise is patently false, and your willingness to advance that premise is unquestionably disturbing to me. DUI laws have nothing to do with wanton disregard of others, the inability to judge, or any other means of attempting to quantify intent. DUI laws are an attempt to prevent future harm, based on a physical blood alcohol content. And that BAC limit, as set by law, is entirely arbitrary.

As support for the BAC being arbitrary, it is my contention that there is no practical difference between the actions of a person with a .0794 BAC, and one with a .0801 BAC. But, one is entirely legal in a .08 jurisdiction, while the other is not.

Consider the following: A person stops by a friends house for a BBQ on a Sunday afternoon, and while there, he has a few beers. As the festivities die down, he decides to drive the short 20mph country road home. Only a few people live on this road, and there is little to no traffic, especially on a Sunday. But, a sheriff happens to be parked along the side of the road, investigating a reported vandalism at an abandoned barn, when he sees the aforementioned driver, and notices he has a tail light out. The sheriff stops the driver to let him know about the tail light, and notices a faint smell of alcohol on Mr. BBQ's breath. So, according to the law, he administers a sobriety test and discovers that the man has a BAC just over the legal limit. The man is then arrested and charged/convicted of DUI.

But, was any harm actually done by the driver? Would there have been?

The answer to the first question is: NO. No harm was done. The man did not swerve into another car, or leave the road and run over the farmer's prized rose bushes. So, with no actual harm done, why should he have to spend time in jail and carry all the baggage that comes with a DUI conviction for the rest of his life?

As to the second question... if a jury is actually willing to convict their peers based on what might, or might not happen in the future, our legal system is broken in spectacular fashion. And it is exactly this situation that has me concerned about the future of the right to keep and bear arms. Because, there are plenty of people, many of which are in positions of power, that believe that the only reason to own a firearm is to kill other people, and as such, all firearms - and all firearm owners - are a threat to society.

So, using the DUI model of defining unacceptable risk to justify drawing random lines regarding what firearms are acceptable, or who may own them (as has been done with SBR's, machine guns, and silencers, etc.) is a real concern. Because once the risk of future harm is found to be an appropriate reason to convict, all gun owners are headed toward having to make a choice between voluntary disarmament or conviction of a crime, just for owning something designed to kill, regardless of whether or not they would ever actually cause harm with that item.

And, if you don't think my analogy isn't valid, I would suggest you look at the constant attempts at passing magazine limits, scary rifle bans, and background checks. These are all attempts to draw arbitrary lines of unacceptable risk, instead of punishing actions that actually cause harm - just like DUI laws.

Food for thought...
 
Let me look at it this way. If one of my soldiers got picked up for DUI, and told me the same story you just did.......he's a dumbass for drinking and driving. Period.

Drunk driving DOES kill thousands of people every year. No matter how you try to rationalize it.
 
I never made the assertion that the fellow in my example didn't break any laws. I do, however, assert that laws designed to punish a person for something that may happen in the future are wrong.
 
Getting rid of "Life in Prison" and just enact the death penalty at that point would go a long way to freeing up cells and not needing my tax dollars spent on housing, feeding, clothing and medical care for this kind of person too.
Incorrect yet common belief.

I can PM you an essay if you want, or you can take my word for it. The death penalty - not the physical act of executing a man, but the time in prison, the money spent on appeals, the average length of time of those appeals, the fact that death row inmates get their own cell, the fact that maximum security housing units mandate additional correctional officers - ... capital punishment costs far more money than life imprisonment.

Like I said, I'll gladly send out copies of my essay, and you can read it and verify my cited sources, or you can take my word for it. Or, of course, you can ignore me and go on in ignorance for the rest of your life. Three options that I offer to you with the full respect of this ex correctional officer.

BTW, my two cents: Any felony, 2A rights are stripped for life. Its a shame that our criminal justice system is ineffective, but that's a fact of life. If our system could achieve even 70% rehabilitation across the board, I would be all for reinstating rights upon release, but its not happening.
 
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Actually, the difference between .0794 and .0801 is the difference between DUI and Impaired Driving... a lesser crime, but still dumb and still dangerous... and if done repeatedly, still evidence of a willing disregard for the law and the safety of others. It's that demonstration of contempt, the recklessness, and willingness to rationalize behavior the repeat offender knows could wrongfully harm or kill innocent people (as DUI does thousands of times a year) that makes me think a person unfit to own guns. It's not just what could happen that worries me; it's that the offender has already repeatedly demonstrated that they don't care.
 
I wonder how many of the "they should never let anyone they wouldn't trust with a gun out of prison" would be willing to pay the additional taxes needed to make it a reality. We already imprison people at a rate higher than any other industrialized nation. Keeping those that we see as dangerous locked up "for good" costs money, and money seems to be something everyone from myself to my state to my nation as a whole seems to be short on. To me, its a idealistic idea, and not something most people would like were it made reality and they got to help foot the bill for it. its a good idea...until the cost of doing so hits you in the pocket book.
 
So, you think everyone should be allowed to drive drunk?
As much as you think that alcohol obviously poses such a great risk to society that we should ban it entirely. :scrutiny:

Let me try to clarify my position.

I believe that the government has no business punishing citizens that have not caused harm to others. I don't care if it's firearm restrictions, mandatory seatbelt laws, or anything else. But, I also believe that the penalties we currently have in place are not sufficient punishment for those that do cause harm.

I believe in freedom, with stiff penalties in place for those that choose to abuse that freedom. It's called taking responsibility for your actions.
 
I can't help but notice that you didn't say no, ngnrd.

So you propose that DUI is no longer a crime, unless that DUI causes an accident, in which case the perpetrator ought to be executed. That's gonna be a tough sell. Almost as tough as my exile proposal to replacing the death penalty and life imprisonment.
 
DUI laws serve a purpose, and I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't learn their lesson after getting one. Multiple convictions show a willful disregard for human life, both that of the driver and anyone he or she shares the road with. Yes, the punishments are sometimes harsh, as they well should be. Studies have shown for every conviction, a drunk typically drives drunk many, many times. I have no interest sharing the road with anyone at even a .079999 BAC personally. In fact, after years of drinking, sometimes responsibly,sometimes not, I abstain from the stuff completely. It offers no benefit to me, and I don't miss it. It certainly isn't something I find important enough to ever risk my 2nd Amendment rights over, and question the logic of those willing to take that risk by drinking and driving when there's even a remote chance that they are over the legal limit to any degree.
 
When I was studying criminal justice, I read an interesting fact. At that time, 99% of all people locked up in prison were repat offenders, yet 99% of first time offenders who got locked up in prison and released never returned. Yes, recidivism is a big problem but only to a few people. The vast majority of people who make mistakes learn from them. It doesn't seem proper to continue to punish them after the lesson is learned.
 
As much as you think that alcohol obviously poses such a great risk to society that we should ban it entirely.

Nope. Alcohol is a substance. Like a gun, it is a thing with no life of its own. Some people use it responsibly and moderately their whole lives. Some abuse it to their hurt and the peril of others. Some will do so again and again, and rationalize it by saying it shouldn't be a big deal because nobody got hurt... until someone does.

It's not the alcohol a man pours into himself that worries me... it's the man doing the pouring.
 
A person who's in the habit of being recklessly drunk is simply all to likely to end up doing something truly bad if allowed to play with loaded guns while, well, loaded. Whether he shoots someone in a drunken rage, puts the gun in his mouth in drunken despondency, or most likely, blows a hole in his or somebody else's leg (sorry!), someone will point out (rightly) that this was a man with a criminal history of substance abuse, and why didn't anyone see the warning signs and take his guns BEFORE he hurt somebody!?

Still, I'd be ok with allowing him to petition for reinstatement of his rights. Serving his sentence, seeking treatment, and demonstrating seven years of sobriety would do as a start.

Arguing that he doesn't need help, and ought to retain the right to put others at risk just because he hasn't killed anyone yet might not be the way to go.
 
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I think a criminal is a criminal, and recidivism rates would indicate that second chances fail more often than not.

This...

Besides a lot of states will allow people to get their crimes expunged after 10yrs of walking the straight and narrow. So it's up to the individual to remedy the situation..
 
I believe that the government has no business punishing citizens that have not caused harm to others.

So should there not be a penalty for going 80 mph through a school zone? After all, they're punishing you for something that hasn't yet caused harm to others. How about running red lights? Same thing there.

I think it's funny that we gun people always use the argument, "Drunk drivers kill way more people than guns do. We don't blame the cars, we blame the idiots drinking and driving." And I agree with that statement by the way. It's true.

However, now you are saying there shouldn't be any punishment for drinking and driving, so long as no one gets hurt. I dont understand it. There has to be some rules and accountability. It is not an infringement of freedom to tell someone they can't drink alcohol and drive. It's common sense.
 
So Paul ,why don't we charge those people with attempted murder? A lot of traffic laws are put in place to protect people from others. However, most of them are in place to generate revenue. So lets be honest about that.

Anytime you join a public forum or list something on a site like Craigslist you have to read and agree to the conditions of the site. Breaking that agreement is a Federal felony. Has anybody here ever done that?

Also some people handle alcohol better than others. Bigger people have a higher tolerance before they become "impaired". So even though they have a BAC of .08 they are honestly not impaired. So does that matter whenever they run onto a DUI roadblock on New Years Eve?
 
So Paul ,why don't we charge those people with attempted murder?

Because there are elements that must be proven to convict someone of a crime, and traffic violations do not meet the required elements for attempted murder.

A lot of traffic laws are put in place to protect people from others. However, most of them are in place to generate revenue. So lets be honest about that.

There's no doubt about it. Some are in place for just that reason, such as parking violations. No one is advocating stripping someone of their 2A rights as a result of those either.

Anytime you join a public forum or list something on a site like Craigslist you have to read and agree to the conditions of the site. Breaking that agreement is a Federal felony. Has anybody here ever done that?

How many people per year die as a result of not complying with terms of agreements for internet sites? Because someone dies every 53 minutes from DWI (according to MADD).

Also some people handle alcohol better than others. Bigger people have a higher tolerance before they become "impaired". So even though they have a BAC of .08 they are honestly not impaired. So does that matter whenever they run onto a DUI roadblock on New Years Eve?

No it doesn't. Should it? I don't know. There has to be limits.
 
How many people per year die as a result of not complying with terms of agreements for internet sites? Because someone dies every 53 minutes from DWI (according to MADD).

That part had nothing to do with the DUI argument. That was my fault for structuring the paragraph like I did. However, it was indeed intended for those who believe they are holier than thou and believe a criminal is a criminal and should be stripped of their rights. Sorry for the confusion Paul.
 
However, now you are saying there shouldn't be any punishment for drinking and driving, so long as no one gets hurt. I dont understand it. There has to be some rules and accountability. It is not an infringement of freedom to tell someone they can't drink alcohol and drive. It's common sense.

I agree, however some people can drink and drive responsibly just like some people can own assault rifles responsibly. Nobody has to get killed in either situation.
 
@Bruno2

"Anytime you join a public forum or list something on a site like Craigslist you have to read and agree to the conditions of the site. Breaking that agreement is a Federal felony. Has anybody here ever done that?"

Any examples? How many people get convicted with as Federal Felony for breaking a forums/CL site agreement by posting something against the guidelines???

You make it sound as felons either had "a little too much to drink" at a BBQ, broke site agreements on CL, stole a 6pack at 7-11 or posted a hunting picture online and got charged with animal cruelty at a felon level for that.

I'm personally not aware of ANY of these cases (stealing a 6-pack is certainly NOT a felony. it's simple shop lifting) ...

the rights of convicted felons to own guns is item #12,456 on my list of things to care about.... the general public probably shares these feelings

also: your comments about DUIs are plane wrong. according to your rules I could drive home WASTED every night and going 40mph over the speed-limit... yet all legal because I don't kill anyone... Yet if I kill anyone it's probably the death penalty. Makes sense.
 
So should there not be a penalty for going 80 mph through a school zone? After all, they're punishing you for something that hasn't yet caused harm to others. How about running red lights? Same thing there.

This may or may not shock you, but I am also against the concept of regulatory maximum speed limits. Such limits are also arbitrary and do not punish based on actual harm done. Rather, such laws are in place solely as an attempt to prevent harm from being done. And, like I said before, I don't think it's the government's job to try to prevent bad things from happening. That whole concept violates my sense of freedom and personal responsibility.

And, lest you accuse me of putting society at risk by encouraging speeders, I offer this:

Roads can be posted at recommended safe speeds based on their design, traffic load, and other factors. Then, people can drive the speed they choose. But, if a person looses control while exceeding the posted safe speed, and causes harm, they are then prosecuted based on the results of their willful disregard for public safety, and the posted recommended safe speed is used as witness against them.

Again, I support a system that allows freedom, but has strict punishment for its abuse.
 
It's kind of like the boarder and immigration.

We've got to get the prisons and repeat offender problems fixed before we start talking about restoring rights.
 
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