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Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Discussion in 'Air Guns' started by cobalt327, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    That would make more sense. [​IMG]
     
  2. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    Cobalt, sorry I didn't catch that info earlier, but thanks again for clarifying. I appreciate the info about manufacturing dates.

    I would really appreciate a tracing of the adult stock. Thx! No hurry though.
     
  3. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    IMG_0165.JPG IMG_0164.JPG Here a bit of info about accuracy at 5 meters.

    The RR has been stripped and blued. It has a .625 AL spring spacer and the stock air tube drilled to #40.

    My problem is that my eyes won't focus on both front and rear sight and target. So... it's a bit of a guess. Thinking about a scope mount or peep sight. I have limited experience with scopes, however it's been better than open sights. I have read that peep sights can help old eyes like mine. I

    Would appreciate input as to scope choices appropriate BB guns.

    Thx!
     
  4. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    I'm aware of and interested in the Lasso scope mount. Was kind of looking at the 4x15 Daisy, but kind of want something better.

    I can post this thread else where if I am taking it to far off topic.

    Thx! hinz57
     
  5. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I'm fine w/discussing sights here, so unless the mods disagree, have at it!

    You are normal if you cannot focus on three spots at once! Focus only on the front sigh. Use the rear sight for aligning the sights only, do not try to focus sharply on it, let it be out of focus- that's the way these sights are meant to work. Then overlay the aligned front sight onto your target. One method that works: "My technique is to first focus on the target as I am bringing the weapon into play (shotgun, . . . pistol, . . . rifle, . . . doesn't matter), . . . then ease my focus back to the front sight and keep it there." This is just a brief overview but if you do some research on using iron or open sights, you will get expert advice on the subject.

    Peep sights can work very well. But they're slow to acquire the target compared to other sights and when light is low they're basically useless. I think of peep sights as a target sight only- for good lighting where speed of target acquisition or follow-up shot is not important, but precision is important. People w/cataracts and other vision problems can have problems using peeps and open sights as well. I struggle w/peeps myself, but this is likely more due to a lifetime of using open iron sights. That said, my best group shot w/a BB gun to date was done using a Daisy 499 and peeps sights!

    The scope rail for the Daisy lever guns looks to be a useful mount, but I would not expect a heavy scope to be supported very well, considering how it's mounted. If one were to use it carefully, I suppose it could work okay w/a large/heavy scope but if it were me, I'd probably use the lightest system that I could, that met my needs.

    Scopes are fine and all, but they're bulkier and heavier than most systems. They're biggest asset is magnification, but at Red Ryder ranges, I personally find I don't really need magnification for the type of shooting I do (I'm a plinker, not a paper puncher).The Leapers/UTG "Bug Buster" scopes are often mentioned, they will focus to a closer range than many scopes. Choose carefully though- some are pretty chunky, weight-wise.

    The red dot is probably used more often by older eyes than any other sight system. They do work very well, just don't go too large on the dot. I like a dot that's no bigger than 4moa. That would be equal to a 1" dot at 25 yards, or 4" at 100 yards. The red dot- depending on whether a reflex or tube- can be very compact and light. They won't overload a rail mount like used on the Red Ryder. No magnification, though. There are add-on magnification units that can be used w/a red dot but by the time you get all that mounted you'd be better served w/a traditional scope, IMHO.

    Didn't mean to make this into a long, boring dissertation on my take on sights, but once I get rolling... haha

    Good luck!
     
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  6. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Accuracy looks better than the stock RR, so that's a start. I believe once you get the whole sighting-using-open-sights thing down, you'll see even more improvement over a stock gun!

    ETA I remember you saying you've swapped for FO front sights. I can't shoot as well using them but that's just me. I add a small white dot to the top of the front sight to help me see it. I used White-Out, most anything will work.

    Also, I bought a blank picatinny rail, 12" long x 0.031" thick (they make a thicker one as well). Got it through Opticsplanet, cost was ~$8.00. You could use one of these to make a scope mount.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
  7. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    Cobalt, thanks for the info and ideas!

    I got involved in all this for my grandkids. Im working on a low budget 5 & 10 meter indoor marksmanship range.

    I'm really enjoying working on the RR class of guns. It's all a learning process. Everything takes time.

    Is the 499 barrel shorter than the RR barrel? I'm interested in persuing that option further.

    I also need to pick up some daisy bb's like you are using, rather than the crossman copper head bb's I currently have.

    The picatinny rail looks interesting.

    Thx again!
     
  8. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    You are welcome! I'm happy to see someone else dive in- the more of us there are, the more we ALL learn.

    Regarding the 499 barrel. it's 9" long x 0.298" OD. This means the Model 105 Buck will be the better platform to use the 499 barrel.

    As for BBs, my testing has shown the best all-around BB to be the zinc plated Daisy "Precision Max" BBs sold by Walmart and others. The best BB regardless of price or availability is the Daisy Match Grade Avanti Precision Ground Shot.

    Below is an interesting photo of Crosman Copperhead BBs. Note that this is from the Crosman website:

    [​IMG]
     
  9. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    IMG_0173.JPG Cobalt,
    The copper heads definitely have a divot in them. Do the daisy precision max bb's have a divot? I plan to get some my next trip to Walmart.

    So it appears the 499 tube is 1-7/8" shorter than the RR. Is the 105 shroud about 1-7/8" shorter than the RR? Or more to the point, what is the length difference between the 105 and the RR? Thx!

    Decided to play with stock design a bit. This trial is to long and bulky. It does get me better alinement with the sight. Based on your sighting tips, I messed around in how to hold the sight in relation to my eye. Part of the problem is wearing progressive lenses. At any rate I really don't need a tracing of the adult stock, but a stacked pic would be helpful. Thought I would lean toward the 499 stock shape. When I like what I've got, will make it out of some nice wood.

    Thanks again!
     
  10. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Measuring the two guns (105 & 1938B) externally, there appears to be a difference in shot tube length of 2-7/8", which would put the OAL of the 105 shot tube liner at 8". I don't have a 105 apart atm to get more precise but suffice to say the 499 shot tube will be plenty long enough for the 105.

    This also gives the option of bringing the end of the shot tube all the way through the front sight/end cap. The advantage in doing that is it will make windage adjustment a lot easier. I use shims to move the shot tube as needed, and using the factory set up this means fiddling around trying to get the sight cap back on w/o disturbing the shims, etc. With the end of the shot tube exposed, inserting shims would be easy. And FWIW, every 1938B and 105 I've had (I believe 8 of them so far) has needed the windage adjusted. You may not need to adjust windage and if this is the case the shot tube can be cut to the stock 105 length just as easily as leaving it even w/the end of the barrel shroud like I just mentioned. But either way, unless you can get by w/the shot tube extending about 3/4" out the front, it'll need cut shorter by some amount. And that means recrowning it unless the length is taken from the opposite end from the muzzle- which would probably be the better choice.

    The through-hole of the RR stock is located on the exposed end of the stock screw of the RR under it. The yardstick is positioned parallel to the barrel shroud of the gun. Let me know if you need something different:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  11. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    You could mayne use a trio of set screws thru the end cap to adjust windage and elevation if you were so inclined.
     
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  12. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Thanks for bring that up [​IMG]- I had kicked around a version of that but I never took it to fruition. I was considering using two setscrews and make flats on the barrel for them to locate on but three would actually be more secure, and wouldn't require any changes to the barrel. But it's a darned shame Daisy doesn't see fit to add a 5 cent rear sight blade held on w/a screw! [​IMG]
     
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  13. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Wait, wait.....u want to be able to adjust where this thing hits? Geez, so demanding.....
     
  14. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Yeah, I know I'm a real stickler for details like that! lol
     
  15. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I ran across something useful for making the Red Ryder rear sight adjustable for windage. First, some background: The shot tube is held by 4 plastic fingers in the ID of the front sight/barrel plug. In the past I have used shims to move the barrel in the direction it needed to go, I have also taken material off one side of the plug OD and added tape to the other side to shift the POI where it needed to be. Shims in the front sight plug ID are harder (for me, anyway) to install correctly but they do work. Taking away material from the OD is non reversible, but tape can be added to bring things back if you went too far. And Daisy sells front sight plugs, standard or FO, for $1.00 each. Post #9, on page 1 of this thread touches on using shims/tape, as well as one way to install a new post. We've also briefly discussed using set screws to position the shot tube for POI.

    That brings us to the new method I've yet to use, but looks to offer the best adjustability. That is to modify the rear sight of the RR to accept the sight blade from a Daisy model 880 (this type of sight blade is shown below). This is what I plan to use going forward. The adjustable blade isn't sold separately (although the small screw is); it comes in the model 880 'sight group'. The cost is $3.00. This mod will require cutting/grinding/filing, drilling, and tapping a tiny screw thread. But this circumvents having to fool around w/shims, etc.- all of which is a PITA as far as I’m concerned.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  16. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    This is a great Thread.
     
  17. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Rained about all day yesterday so I used some of the time to swap springs in my 499. To recap, the 499 is known as the worlds most accurate BB gun for its 5 meter performance. But while it certainly IS accurate at 5 and even as much as 10 meters, much beyond that the gun just runs out of steam. Even the aperture rear sight runs out of elevation adjustment at around 15 yards. Some details of my 499 (built from parts bought from Daisy) is HERE.

    The advertised MV of the 499 is only 240 and mine is right there w/a 235 fps average, which is actually pretty darned good, all things considered. The theory I have is the ~50% weaker spring of the 499 is offset by the tighter shot tube bore and a more efficient shot tube design- it has a lot less built-in 'leakage' whereas the Red Ryder is just the opposite (although it's better in that regard than the earlier gravity feed removable shot tubes). But the RR benefits from the air tube's 'pool cue' shot it gives the BB when the gun's fired. Some estimated put the shot tube's contribution to the MV at 50 to 80 fps. The 499 does not have an air tube.

    So tomorrow, weather permitting, I will test the MV of the 499 with the RR spring, shimmed 1/2". In a RR such a setup would be good for around 290 fps, give or take. I'm actually pretty curious what the modified 499 will do for MV! I'll also shoot a target at 10 meters to compare to what it did stock, which was around 0.85" for 5 shots, 4 went into 0.42". Chalk that up to the shooter (me), and is not the fault of the 499.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
  18. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I've had the following info since last night when I broke down and set up my chronograph indoors using my makeshift light set-up so I could at least get an idea of the 499/Red Ryder hybrid's MV- my curiosity was killing me! lol.

    So I shot a few rounds over the chrono indoors and frankly, I didn't believe what I saw. So I waited until I could steal a few minutes today to take the chrono outdoors like normal. But the results were the same as indoors. So now I'm wondering if the chrono is wonky. I swapped out the 9V battery- same results. Put it in direct sunlight (which it doesn't like w/o sunscreens, which weren't on it at the time- same thing. So I grabbed a different gun w/a well known MV to use as verification the chrono was okay or not. This showed the chrono is not wonky and is performing as it always has. So with no further ado, here's a photo of the chrono showing the last shot of 7 shots I made over the chrono.

    [​IMG]

    They say a picture's worth a thousand words, but I cannot help but be amazed at the MV! Especially considering what I had to do earlier to get a RR to shoot 350 fps- and that gun was harsh to shoot and on the edge of eating itself up in the process. The 499/RR hybrid is like shooting a RR w/a 1/2" spacer, which is to say it's mild- not harsh at all. I will do some accuracy testing asap.

    Results from the short, 7 shot string in FPS:
    • High 417
    • Low 407
    • Avg. 412
    • ES 10
    • SD 3
    To review the gun and how it's set up again, the 499 has no air tube at all, the spring is a current production Red Ryder part that had been used already during some testing I did on my Millennium 2000 Red Ryder (that gun shot just 150 fps or so, had a bad shot tube). So the spring isn't even a brand new part. I did preload the spring 1/2", mostly to assure it was up to at least factory specs for a new, unused spring. Knowing what I do from previous testing, in a well-sealed RR, this spring w/ an undrilled air tube and the 1/2" preload spacer would be good for no more than 300 fps, maybe a bit less. Nothing else has been done to the 499- except for the spring and preload spacer it's the same as when I built it from a pile of parts.

    Needless to say, this has got me wanting to use a 499 shot tube in a RR more than ever! Obviously I don't expect as much of an increase in MV from a RR as I'm seeing from the 499, due to the less efficient shot tube design of the RR, but it has to be worth at least some increase in MV to my way of thinking. Just how much of an increase remains to be seen. Maybe hinz57 or another builder altogether will be able to get their RR/499 shot tube hybrid up and running sooner than I'll be able to- and that's totally cool w/me! Either way, I'm anxious to know the results!
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
  19. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    IMG_1514.JPG IMG_0198.JPG Very impressive! I haven't made much progress. Haven't found anyone with a chronograph. Been working on my shooting skills a bit. Finally have some Walmart daisy bb's in hand. Some fitting of an adult stock variation that lets me line up my eyes to the sights better. About ready to make one out of some scrap oak I have.

    Had to stop to build a custom casket. Should finish that in the next couple of days. Open up my shop/shooting gallery!

    I have some ideas about the RR/499 hybrid. Did you take any pics of the 499 barrel without the barrel nut and funnel? Is it threaded on both ends? Does it have a gentle lead in taper on the magnet end, like the #25? Is the crown of the barrel different than a 25? At any rate I have yet to place a daisy order.

    Thanks again for your development work!
     
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  20. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Good to hear from you again. Custom casket? Multi talented this one is!

    I cannot offer much on the questions you have except the barrel is threaded on both ends, and the crown looks very ordinary- no evidence of hand finishing, no special angles, not recessed except as much as the as-machined rolled edge gives it. This is as viewed w/the funnel in place, a closer magnified look might reveal something I cannot see by eye.

    Your other questions else will probably require another shot tube assembly to take apart to see what's up. The way the shot tube comes from Daisy is with the funnel and barrel nut installed, along with a test target showing how it performed. When I first got it, I gave the barrel nut a twist while holding the barrel by hand and it didn't budge and neither did the funnel so I left it alone, not wanting to damage it.

    I have an order almost ready to go out to Daisy/DAMACO, when it arrives I'll take the shot tube apart and then I'll be able to answer your questions if you've not received yours by then.

    @LoonWulf- I'm looking into using one of the rear sights you sent me on the 499 in place of the peep sight. I like the accuracy of the peep but speed of target acquisition and poor low-light performance are big downsides for me. Hope all's well on your end...
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
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  21. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Glad to know those are useful, im still watching this thread, but i havent gotten my own gun to project yet so havent been able to make any real contributions lol.

    Hinz shoot me your mailing address ill loan u my old chrono.
     
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  22. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Hi LW!

    The sights are VERY useful, especially in light of no available plug and play open sights being made for the 499. I just hope the 499 is accurate at this astronomical-for-what-it-is MV. If it is, I'll be stoked. I didn't get out w/it today to shoot any targets but tomorrow I will for sure- even if it's only one.
     
  23. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

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    Then you'll need to write a paper on why you think the 499 has been so successful, in a condensed form of course.
    I've been trying to pick out all of jewels in this thread to put them all together so one could build the ultimate Daisy air rifle.
    There's a lot to read through.
     
  24. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    In a nutshell, it's mostly in the shot tube. Along with having a more precise barrel, its design is such that there's no excess loss of pressure through the ancillary ports that are in the Red Ryder and model 25 shot tube assemblies. The model 25 makes up for a portion of these inherent losses by having a slightly smaller barrel ID, but it's still not as efficient as the 499 shot tube assembly. Then there's the lack of a shot tube in the 499, not needed because it's a single shot muzzle loader- and being a single shot is the one major downside to the 499/RR hybrid. But if you're going to make a repeater, the shot tube is a necessary evil, given the design parameters of the Daisy lever action BB gun.
     
  25. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

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    So does that make the #25 the best compromise if you want a repeater?
     
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