Question about cap to nipple fit

[BCRider]

I've seen a heap of references to folks running different caps on their BP guns and I gather it's in reference to how well the caps fit. But being new to this I have no idea about just how tight is too loose, too tight or just right. Can some of you describe just how they are supposed to fit for me?

My twin pack of Uberti Remingtons arrived today but I wasn't here to get them. Now I have to wait until tomorrow to go pick 'em up. However NGG (New Gun Gloat) pictures will be up by mid afternoon or at this time at the latest on the morrow.

Oh, he also had some replacement nipples that he remembered and tossed in. I have no idea what they are so that'll be posted as well.

The goal is to use the stuff I got recently to try them out this weekend. I've got an almost full box of Speer .457 round balls and a little tin of Dynamit Nobel Troisdorf #55 muzzle loader caps made in Germany. Hmmm.... the caps don't sound very promising from this point for the balls or caps. I guess I'll do some checking around while I wait for a reply. Oh and I've got most of a lb of Goex FFFg powder. Again I'm going to look at what I should be using while I wait for your learned replies.

 

[BCRider]

Looks like I just need to find some proper #11 caps if the ones I have don't fit. All the rest I've found is perfectly fine.

Although it sounds like the balls will require a bit of a grunt to shave them during ramming.

For this first time out I'll be loading using the gun's rammer since I won't have had time to make a ramming jig.

I guess I'll be phoneing around for caps tomorrow. I've gathered that they are pretty rare around these parts.

With the bag o' BP stuff I got a flask as well as one of those brass sliding inner rod style measures. I gather that this is graduated directly in grains so I'll be using that to measure out 30grns per charge.

Oh boy, Oh boy, Oh boy, Oh boy, Oh boy, Oh boy it's gonna be a smokey fun time at the range this weekend....

 

[scrat]

Your going to tell right away which caps you need. if you put a number 11 cap on and it falls off when you hold the gun up. then you give it a pinch and put it on and it still seems too big. Guess what they are tooo big. Then lets say you have a number 10 cap and you try to put it on a number 11. but its just too small it wont go over the nipple. then when i think i have it on its rubbing the back plate when i revolve the cylinder. Guess what you need number 11's

 

[mykeal]

A cap that's too small is the hardest to diagnose. It's supposed to fit far enough down that the material inside the top of the cap sits on the top of the nipple, or very close to it. If it's too small it may go just part way, and the hammer will not cause the explosive material to strike the nipple and go off. A second hammer strike is usually successful as the first actually seats the cap fully.

Caps that are too large will fall off if the muzzle is raised; sometimes the right sized caps are don't go on far enough and are still loose; often a slight nudge is needed to get them to go that last little bit and stay on.

 

[ClemBert]

Range report: Uberti 1858 Remington

The following is a recent report I filed on my new Uberti 1858 Remington. It might give you an indication on what to expect (or not) with your Uberti's.

Finally took the new 1858 for a test spin this past Saturday. I shot 30 rounds. I was fairly pleased with this firearm. It was a "blast" to shoot. Lots o-fun-n-smoke!

The first 24 rounds I used 25 grains of 777 whereas the last 6 rounds it was 30 grains. I always use a lubricated Wonder Wad between the charge and the ball. As expected, this firearm fired about 6" too low due to the tall front site that Uberti ships with. It is made to file down and its clear I'll need to do that. This firearm shot about 4" to the left of center. I noticed that the front sight is actually about 1/32" off center to the right. Because Uberti dove tails the front sight it is easily corrected with a drift. Hopefully, making the front sight dead on center will make it POA with regard to windage.

I used Hornady .454 round swagged lead balls. I was surprised to see that a lead ring typically did NOT shave off when loading the ball. Maybe I need to think about using .457 balls instead. I have an ample supply of them that I use for my ROAs.

For caps I tried several. The Winchester Magnum #11 caps (aka CCI #11) fell right off the nipples. The Remington #11 caps seemed to work okay but not perfect. It is #11 caps that are recommended by Uberti. The Remington #10 caps worked the best and most reliably although I did experience a few non-fires on first impact. All in all I did not have a clean run with any of the three caps styles. Guess it might be time to look into those Treso nipples that everyone talks about.

Once I figured out where to aim this Remmie it was very easy to get consistent hits. All-in-all I was very please with my first outing.

 

[Olmontanaboy]

I know you must have heard this before but man that Rem is a looker

 

[arcticap]

Can some of you describe just how they are supposed to fit for me?

I recently fired a 1993 Pietta Remington for the first time and it had original factory nipples. The #10 Remington caps fit well enough like a glove to tell that there's no need for any aftermarket replacements. Each needed to be pushed all of the way in with a minimal of effort because the fit was very close but not overly snug. But their last portion did need to be pushed on to the nipple using some light finger pressure because I wasn't using a capper.
They wouldn't accidently fall off very easily if the gun was being carried and jarred, or due to the recoil from firing, and they should seal enough to protect from any of the nipple backflash that could cause a chainfire by way of an inadequately sealed nipple opening.
Loose fitting caps shouldn't usually matter but if you've got the right size that seal well without needing too much effort to set, might as well use them.

 

[BCRider]

Thanks all for the info so far. I'm going to be phoning around in a few minutes to see if there's a supply of caps within reasonable local striking distance. Pics of the new twins will also be up once I get back with the box from the post office.

 

[BCRider]

OK, so the pistols arrived (see the other new thread of mine for the picture of me with the twins) and I tried to fit on one of the oddball #55 caps I have. They are a copper cap with pleats on the side. They need to be pushed on from the very start but the copper and pleats work to allow the cap to go on but just before they seat using a firm to strong thumb push the skirt of the cap splits about 1/3 of the way up the skirt. The fit is still very firm even with the split.

Do these sound like they are useable?

 

[ClemBert]

Personally, I would avoid those particular caps. They might ignite on first impact of the hammer but consider this. The cap should properly seal the nipple. You want to avoid chain fires from the nipple side that can occur if flame or hot gas from a fired chamber works it's way into an improperly sealed nipple. Also, with the split nipples you might find that the resulting concussion that occurs when firing your revolver will jar loose some of those split caps. This will expose you to potential chain fire situations.

 

[DuncanSA]

Caps and nipples cause me endless frustration. Every manufacturer of either item seems to mean a different size designation to any other.

 

[ClemBert]

And the same brand and same "cap" size can vary from lot to lot. Isn't that fun.

 

[BCRider]

OK, so no using the caps that split. Gotcha.

Also it sounds like I'm pretty much going to need to make up a "nipple guage" to take with me when going cap shopping or at least take along my spare cylinder.

 

[BHP FAN]

you might consider after market nipples.I have a '51 Navy revolver of recent manufacture,that has two distinct different sizes of ''cones'' on it.I'm going to buy some Tresos and fix that.

 

[ClemBert]

Well the caps here in the states are generally sealed in a package so there isn't any trying them out plus the store would probably have a fit if you were putting caps on cylinders in their store. Best bet is to buy a pack of #10's and #11's. Use the ones that don't work well to clear out the storage oil prior to loading your powder for the first shots of the day.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I have found the perfect solution to poor fitting caps.

You need to own enough revolvers, from the large Walker and Dragoons down to the tiny little .31 Baby Dragoon. That way you well always be able to find a revolver to fit the caps you have bought.

 

[mykeal]

Best bet is to buy a pack of #10's and #11's.

You'll actually need two sets of No. 10's (one each CCI and Remington) and two sets of No. 11's (again, one each CCI and Remington) plus one set of RSW No. 1075's to get all the options.

I've never heard of "#55's", so I don't really know which way to tell you to go.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

I've seen a heap of references to folks running different caps on their BP guns and I gather it's in reference to how well the caps fit. But being new to this I have no idea about just how tight is too loose, too tight or just right. Can some of you describe just how they are supposed to fit for me?

If the caps fly off the other cylinders when you fire one shot, they are too loose. If you can't push the caps on when loading, or it takes extreme effort, they are too tight. The correct fit is just right snug, able to push on with your thumb or finger, and they all stay there when one if fired. You can experiment with different brands of caps, some caps fit a gun better than others, then just buy those. It's aggravating to fire a shot and lose 4 caps.

 

[tripe1917]

Remy caps

I have a 1858 Remington and the Remington #10 caps work for me and I have no misfires. I have tried #10 CCI's, but they won't fire on the first attempt even though I have fully seated them on the nipples.

 

[BCRider]

I found out about this just on the weekend. First round had about 3 caps that were not on quite tight enough and I had to pass around a second time to get them to fire. With more pressure I got that down to one cap on one gun that consistently failed to fire first time around. I'm going to machine that one down a hair to match the others.

That was with CCI #11's. They seem to fit my Ubertis just lovely and out of three cylinders only that one oversize nipple is an issue. By the end of the day I was getting consistent firing from all three cylinders other than that one. And it was really obvious. It would barely seat from finger pressure and took a crazy amount of force to push on most of, but all, the way.

I used a length of dowel to push with a side to side wiggle to walk the caps on very firmly and kept my fingers away from the front of the cylinder "just in case".

I really should set up a cylinder with no charge and push on a cap as freakin' hard as I can and see if it fires just with pressure rather than impact. Anyone done that as a test?

 

[Ginormous]

I really should set up a cylinder with no charge and push on a cap as freakin' hard as I can and see if it fires just with pressure rather than impact. Anyone done that as a test?

Just so happens I have a brand new stainless steel Pietta 1858 Remington cylinder on the desk in front of me, and I've been wondering the same thing myself.

Got my thumbs, my wood dowel cap seating tool, a brass drift, some caps, safety glasses, hearing protection and this cylinder all laid out in front of me. And by God, I am going to find out!

I'll report back shortly.

 

[BCRider]

Isn't it you that has the healing blisters on your hand? You be sure and wear your gloves as well!

When I shot my Ubertis yesterday I was wearing a glove on my right hand in respect of what these things can do when caps go bad. I should probably wear one on my left as well but that's the support hand and it's mostly shielded by the right and I found I got really fumbly in getting the shotgun shells out of the belt for the shotgun portion of the stages if I had one on the left. Pretty much an assured dropsie in fact.

Looking forward to the report... the TYPED report and not the BANG! report...

 

[arcticap]

I believe that this Wikipedia reference article is written by THR's mec since the Lemat with target that's pictured is credited to him:

Elmer Keith, Sixguns 1955, noted that early 20th century percussion caps would sometimes fire under thumb pressure when seated on the cones. This would raise a blister on his thumb. While the possibility of this happening with modern lead styphnate caps is present and it is important to point the gun in a safe direction while capping, it is rarely, if ever seen even when using a dowel or the gun's hammer to seat the caps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeMat_Revolver

On Page 15 of the Ruger Instruction Manual:

WARNING: It is dangerous to attempt to use caps which are
too small. Never force a cap on to the nipple. Since caps fire by
percussion, excess force or a blow in seating them can cause the caps to discharge, firing the gun, and forcing hot gas out of the nipple, which can cause injury.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/PDF/InstructionManuals/13.pdf

This SASS club's range policy only allows push sticks to be used for seating caps:

Case one, the seating of caps with thumb or finger pressure (or any other body part). The ignition of a cap while seating it, seems to be a very remote occurrence (I can only find three cases that may be true). In order to press the cap with the thumb, the revolver will generally be held parallel to the loading bench or muzzle somewhat down. A ball launched from the cylinder in this position will pose a minimum threat to other shooters. The thumb or finger used to seat the cap will likely require medical attention. The explosive force of a percussion cap is considerable.

Case two, the use of the hammer to seat caps. This is without doubt, a most dangerous practice. A visit to most any CAS range will present an array of loading tables with bullet holes, and chunks of wood blown away by the accidental discharge of a firearm while loading. The vast majority of these ADs are from handguns, discharged while attempting to index them.

The act of seating caps with the hammer is an accident waiting to happen. The probability of a “slipped hammer” accidental discharge is extremely great. Such an accident will loose a full energy projectile! I can think of no greater hazard to the other shooters in the area (It is also a basic violation of SASS policy to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber).

Case number three, the use of a “push stick” seems to offer the greatest overall range safety. If a chamber discharge did occur , the projectile from the “out of battery” position will have very little energy, and therefore be less likely to do serious harm to another shooter in the area. Further the use of a “push stick” will keep the hand of the shooter loading the firearm, in a much safer location.

After consideration of all the data, the “Brimstone Pistoleros”, a SASS affiliated club, and the “Cajon Cowboys”, a SASS affiliated club have adopted the standard range rule that caps, installed on a C&B revolver, may only be “seated” with the use of a “push stick”.

http://www.brimstonepistoleros.com/articles/capping.html

 

[ClemBert]

Wow, just wow...never knew someone would use the hammer to seat the caps.

 

[Ginormous]

Yes, that was me. The burnt finger and thumb that is. Not the hammer and cap loading combo.

I only used my thumb to place the cap on the nipple, btw, I didn't really expect that to set a cap off, but included it for a well rounded review.

Equipment used:

1 NIB Pietta Stainless Steel 1858 Revolver cylinder with SS nipples
1 one lb. Rubber Mallet, well used
1 47 yr old thumb, left hand variety - well used
1 3/8" wooden dowel percussion cap seating tool, with dremeled concave end
1 3/8" Mahew brass drift punch, newish
3 #10 CCI Brand percussion caps - recent vintage
3 #1075 RWS Brand percussion caps - recent vintage
Eyes and ears on, welding gloves on (no kidding!)

Methodology:

Place single percussion cap on nipple and apply varying amounts of pressure, percussion, or voodoo chanting (as appropriate) until cap detonates, or not.

Okay, the bottom line: I am really surprised at the force required to make a percussion cap detonate, at least with my test setup - but it can be done!


Results:

Began with CCI Brand #10 percussion caps, as they fit this cylinder best:

Gloved left hand thumb, enough pressure to seat cap - no detonation
Gloved left hand thumb, enough pressure to seat and twist cap - no detonation
Gloved left hand thumb, enough pressure to seat cap, cause pain to thumb joint and twist cap - no detonation

*Courage failed at this point, and I moved on to the dowel.

Wooden dowel, enough hand pressure to really seat cap - hard - no detonation
Wooden dowel, enough hand pressure to really seat cap - really hard - no detonation
Wooden dowel, enough hand pressure to really, really seat cap - really, really hard and pushing cap from all angles until cap deformed into and began to look like a part of a nipple - no detonation

Replaced the cap at this point with a new CCI Brand #10 percussion cap.

Wooden dowel, well seated cap, light rap with rubber mallet - no detonation
Wooden dowel, well seated cap, a smart rap with rubber mallet - no detonation
Wooden dowel, well seated cap, a good hard smack with rubber mallet - no detonation . . . and no more wooden dowel either - darned thing split and shattered at the end and the cap was again looking gilded to the nipple

Tossed dowel into garbage, replaced cap and moved on to Mahew brass drift punch.

Brass drift on cap, light rap with rubber mallet - no detonation
Brass drift on cap, smart rap with rubber mallet - detonation

Moved on to the RWS Brand #1075 percussion cap - fits loosely on nipple

Brass drift on cap, light rap with rubber mallet - no detonation
Brass drift on cap, smart rap with rubber mallet - detonation

OK, by now I was getting the picture and a sense of how much pressure is required to to makes things go BOOM. And it really was a lot more than I thought. BUT, this surely does not mean that I'll be smacking these things down willy-nilly on a loaded cylinder with a dowel made from rock maple either. It means I'll probably be doing the same thing I was taught here when I first came. Match the percussion cap to the nipple, seat the cap gently, always keeping the weapon pointed down range, and light it off like thousands of shooters have before me. With a big puff of smoke, and hopefully a hole in the black!

Still, it was a heck of a lot of fun doing this. As someone stated several weeks ago in this forum, it was almost as much fun as lighting those famous little piles of real gunpowder from the first can you ever buy, you know, just to see what they'll do.

Oh yeah!