Question about NICS delay

[Six]

Duns, you're right. It's just the type of proof and the dates they span.

But the problem is that the information wasn't filled out the first time around and BATFE might ding the FFL on not having the info.

You could put it in after the fact and whistle innocently.

But I wouldn't.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You didn't go to the link posted above and read the instructions for Question 20.c. did you?
Every document that is acceptable to ATF is listed there.

I believe he did, dogtown tom. Look at question 20.c and the instructions for 20.c on the link that you posted.

Question 20.c says e.g. "e.g." is an abbreviation for the latin phrase which means, in English, "for example." The phrase "for example" means that the list which follows are only examples of acceptable documents, not an inclusive list.

The instructions for question 20.c uses both the phrase "examples of" and "e.g." again both of which are merely examples of acceptable documentation, not an all inclusive list.

Finally, the source CFR, 27 CFR 478.124 also does NOT contain an all inclusive list of acceptable documentation, only examples.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Duns, you're right. It's just the type of proof and the dates they span.

But the problem is that the information wasn't filled out the first time around and BATFE might ding the FFL on not having the info.

You could put it in after the fact and whistle innocently.

But I wouldn't.

If NICS approves the transaction, there is nothing wrong with fixing an administrative oversight on the 4473. There is no attempt to deceive or misrepresent anything in an attempt to hide any information regarding the legality of the transaction.

Let's say someone buys a gun on January 2, 2010 and they write the date on the 4473 as January 2, 2009 and the error is not caught until the end of the day when maybe the manager reviews all the forms. There is only need to correct the date on the form - not to retrieve the gun, invalidate the whole transaction and start over with a new NICS call.

I don't see this as being any different - the info is there and valid - it just wasn't recorded on the 4473 at the appropriate time.

 

[crsuribe]

I have all my documents ready to show my FFL so he can amend the form. NavyLT, if I get denied, do you think we should start all over? Or proceed with an appeal instead?

 

[dogtown tom]

Six: ...As an alien, you will always get a Delayed...

Not true, I have had several Permanant Residents who do not get delayed.

crsuribe:...@Dogtown
I don't see a list of documents anywhere on that form. They only mention Utility Bills, as an example.

You aren't looking at the INSTRUCTIONS for Question 20.c. They are on page 6 of the Form 4473:

Question 20.c. Documentation for All Aliens

Sale of Firearms to Legal Aliens: A buyer who is not a citizen of the United States must provide additional documentation.....

...Acceptable documentation to prove 90-day continuous residency must be original documentation (e.g. utility bills, current bank statements, rent receipts, mortgage payments, lease agreements, personal property tax bills, documents issued by Federal, State, or local government agencies, first class mail issued by government agency, insurance policies, or bill with current address or major credit card bill).

crsuribe: ...With all due respect, because I do appreciate you trying to help me, it seems to me like all you guys are doing is come up with reasons why I'm screwed but absolutely no solutions.

Solutions? You'll have to wait until NICS denies your transaction before any possible solution can begin. You have a "delay", which is not uncommon and requires no action on your part or by your dealer. It MAY have been avoidable if he had completed the 4473 correctly, but we'll never know. If NICS calls your dealer with a "proceed" or if after three business days your dealer decides to complete the transfer you won't need a solution.

If you ARE denied, your dealer must give you the NICS transaction number and a NICS Appeals brochure (or you can print one yourself from the NICS website).

Six:...The safe way to me would be to cancel the current transaction, shred the 4473, fill out a new one with the information, get delayed for USCIS check, get approved, take my gun home.

Safe for who? Federal law requires the dealer to keep denied/cancelled 4473's for at least five years.

NavyLT:...If NICS approves the transaction, there is nothing wrong with fixing an administrative oversight on the 4473. There is no attempt to deceive or misrepresent anything in an attempt to hide any information regarding the legality of the transaction....

True, but my ATF investigator asks that I initial and date any "corrections" to my bound book or a 4473. If incorrect information is entered they prefer a line drawn through the incorrect info rather than using whiteout.




.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If you were going to be denied because of the residency DOCUMENTATION question, I would say the denial would have been immediate. It's like if you are trying to buy a handgun out of state as soon as an FFL from state A says that the purchaser is from state B NICS will deny it automatically. So the verbal answers given to NICS by the FFL must have been enough to satisfy NICS enough to proceed.

Notice I highlighted the word residency DOCUMENTATION. They may still be researching your residency.

I would just wait and see what the reason for the denial was (if you get denied) and go from there. Not much to do now but wait - probably the last thing you want to do right now!

 

[dogtown tom]

crsuribe I have all my documents ready to show my FFL so he can amend the form. NavyLT, if I get denied, do you think we should start all over? Or proceed with an appeal instead?

Unfortunately, you will have to proceed with the appeal. The dealer cannot transfer the firearm to you until he gets a "proceed" response from NICS- and that would not come until your appeal is heard.

I would immediately take the documents to him so he can amend the 4473. I would also ask him to call NICS, press "2" and ask for a "NICS Examiner" to provide the updated information. If he waits until NICS calls back it's too late.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Unfortunately, you will have to proceed with the appeal. The dealer cannot transfer the firearm to you until he gets a "proceed" response from NICS- and that would not come until your appeal is heard.

He has not gotten a deny response yet. Only a delay. The FFL can transfer the firearm without hearing back from NICS in three business days.

 

[dogtown tom]

NavyLT He has not gotten a deny response yet. Only a delay. The FFL can transfer the firearm without hearing back from NICS in three business days.

I know...but this was his question:

crsuribe... if I get denied, do you think we should start all over? Or proceed with an appeal instead?

 

[crsuribe]

I will call my FFL tomorrow and show him the documents so he can amend the form and call NICS with the update.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You are correct, dogtown tom, my mistake. If he does get denied the only next step is the appeal.

I don't think there can be a NICS update after the first call is made. I might be wrong... I think the only updating comes with the appeal, or with filing a Volunteer Appeal Form to put everything on record for the future.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I don't think there can be a NICS update after the first call is made. I might be wrong... I think the only updating comes with the appeal, or with filing a Volunteer Appeal Form to put everything on record for the future.

I believe you are right. Once denied it doesn't do any good to resubmit, it's going to be marked for denial until appealed is my understanding.

 

[crsuribe]

What if say, my wife tries to make the purchase this time? I mean, I know 100% I'm legal to own firearms as I've never been convicted of any crime whatsoever and have been a lawful permanent resident for almost 150 days. So if I get denied it's just another bureaucratic mess.

I can file the appeal in the meantime and do the Voluntary Appeal thing aswell to make sure it never happens again, but I've been waiting all my life to be in a place that doesn't look down on firearms so I could own my own. Where I come from, people think there's something really wrong with you if you don't despise weapons and the government holds an absolute monopoly on them and nobody but cops and criminals are allowed to have them.

 

[DenaliPark]

Denali, like I've said before, I'm perfectly legal to own firearms, or else the court wouldn't have returned them to me.

Let's see.. I have never been convicted of a crime, and have been a resident in the state in which I'm purchasing this firearm for almost 150 days.

What should I do in case of a denial, though? Try to start a new transaction but this time showing proof of residency? Or appeal right away?

Not saying you're not, just stating my opinion. Plenty of good folks are forced to beg their way through the system, ultimately requiring the services of an attorney. The 2nd Amendment, its not a right, I know you here from all the chest thumpers that it is, but in truth its not, you have to seek permission in the United States to purchase, or carry a firearm. When you have to ask permission for a thing, it goes to reason that they can, and do say no once in a while.
If you're denied, the first thing is to discover why? Then proceed from there, if you're denied you will need an expert to ensure you are treated fairly, which will cost you money.

 

[DenaliPark]

What if say, my wife tries to make the purchase this time? I mean, I know 100% I'm legal to own firearms as I've never been convicted of any crime whatsoever and have been a lawful permanent resident for almost 150 days. So if I get denied it's just another bureaucratic mess.

I can file the appeal in the meantime and do the Voluntary Appeal thing aswell to make sure it never happens again, but I've been waiting all my life to be in a place that doesn't look down on firearms so I could own my own. Where I come from, people think there's something really wrong with you if you don't despise weapons and the government holds an absolute monopoly on them and nobody but cops and criminals are allowed to have them.

I believe you stated that your wife is treating for serious psychiatric illness? That will be a problem unto itself, particularly considering that it resulted in a recent involuntary incarceration.

 

[crsuribe]

The system is funny like that I suppose. Since she has never been adjudicated mentally defective by a court nor committed to a mental institution, she would have less trouble purchasing a gun than I would, since she's a born U.S Citizen. In fact, she's the one who purchased that 10/22 the cops took and then returned when the whole thing was over.

Edit:
She was actually the one who picked up the rifle at the police station since it was listed to be owned by both of us. Also, all of her therapists know about our interest in firearms and the fact that we like to go to the range and shoot targets and they have no problem with it. They also know about everything that happens with her. The reason they don't consider it dangerous is because there's no reason to believe that she's potentially a danger to herself or others.

Regardless of who buys the pistol, we're both gonna use it as much as the other. The idea is to use it for Deer hunting as well as target shooting, since we plan on buying a .40S&W conversion barrel for use at the range. And here in Ohio you can't hunt Deer with a rifle, but you can do it with a handgun. We would just need to get that 6" barrel from Lone Wolf, since the minimum accepted by the law is 5".

But I still like to keep my guns locked away and with trigger locks installed at all times unless we're at the range, just because I feel better that way and because other people live with us.

This is from the "Evidence Submission Form"


I don't want to do anything illegal, though. Not even unintentionally. That's why I'm asking here and actually taking your advise very seriously. You guys know more about this than I do.

 

[crsuribe]

Judging by everybody's sudden silence I guess it's a bad idea, so I'll dismiss it.

It doesn't matter I can be patient. I'll let you guys know what happens when/if we hear back from NICS. Tomorrow will be the 3rd business day since I filed the application last Thursday.

 

[NavyLCDR]

There is nothing wrong with your wife buying the gun. So long as it is with money that she would be able to access anyway to do with whatever she wanted.

Now, if you gave her money that was separately and totally yours, that she would not normally have access to, and she used it to buy a gun for you, that would be illegal.

And, thus, I have probably started a half dozen arguments about straw purchases.

 

[crsuribe]

Oh well she's my wife and there's no such thing as "my" or "her" money. We share everything from a bed and blankets to cars and bank accounts, lol. We also share the 10/22 that we got and she shoots just as much as I do when we go to the range! It's good times.

By the way, LT.. your join date is december 14... that's my birthday haha. Just thought it was interesting.

Update:
Just talked to my FFL. He called NICS again and they told him we were still on delay. I told him about the documents to prove that I've been in the State for over 90 consecutive days and he told me to bring them to him if he gets a proceed or if NICS doesn't call back before Thursday, to bring the documents and he'll make copies of them and add them to the form (4473) and transfer the gun to me.

 

[nulook45]

atf denials

well its probably the wife if she was involentary commited there is your problem and it gets worse you can probably sue the hospital / center for releasing the info without your permision under the hippa act . now if you file an apeal with nics / the F.B.I. they in about 6 months will explain everything to you, but and heres where the straw deal comes in even tho she is denyed her constitutional rights because you are married and living under the same roof your rights are denied as well and if found to be legit you are looking at 2 to 10 years and up to 25k fine for having a gun in the home where you reside . you need an attorny and you need one fast . i have been thru this its not pretty i was arrested for dv4 misdemeanor the charges were dropped but w was also charged with disorderly conduct . the form 4473 clearly states have you ever been convicted of a crime of dv i answered no because the charges were droped. but the arrest is still on the record and that puts it under the lautenburger law. get the idea thegovernment doesnt want anyone owning guns and they will think of anyway to deny anyone that right legal or not i was never convicted of domestic violence yet i was denyed my rights you need a good attorny and fast good luck to you

Jim

 

[crsuribe]

Nu, with all due respect that made no sense whatsoever.

My wife has never had anything like an "involuntary commitment" to anything. She was arrested, just like me and charged with Domestic Violence, then the charges were dropped because the attorney representing the State of Ohio realized how stupid the situation was and that there was no reason to punish us for something that didn't happen. He ordered us to be evaluated by a mental health clinic and that clinic sent a letter to the court saying that we needed no further treatment since the whole thing was an isolated incident. So the whole thing was taken off our record. The only thing that remains is the arrest, but that is not enough to get a denial. You know, that whole thing with "Innocent until proven guilty"? Yeah, we were never proved guilty and thus why we were never convicted and also the reason why the firearm that the cops confiscated was returned to us. Meaning we are both clean and legal to own firearms, or else the court wouldn't have released it and the Attorney representing the State of Ohio would've had an objection when the motion to release the firearm was brought before the court in a hearing 2 weeks after the cases were dismissed. By this point they had also received the letter from that clinic, and our payment covering all court costs.

Again, it is perfectly legal for both of us to own firearms and if I get denied, I have everything I would need to succeed in an appeal. IF my appeal doesn't go through, then I can start worrying about how I'm gonna afford a lawyer with my $8.50/hr salary. But right now, I don't need to be worrying about that just yet.

Thanks for your input though, I know you're doing your best to help me and I appreciate it very much.

 

[NavyLCDR]

but and heres where the straw deal comes in even tho she is denyed her constitutional rights because you are married and living under the same roof your rights are denied as well and if found to be legit you are looking at 2 to 10 years and up to 25k fine for having a gun in the home where you reside .

Complete and total bunk.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bunk
bunk
–noun Informal.
humbug; nonsense.

A non-prohibited spouse may possess firearms at their home if they are kept in a locked room/safe that the prohibited spouse does not have access to without breaking and entering.

 

[crsuribe]

That and neither of us is prohibited anyway. Like I showed you all before (in that pic), it was my wife herself who picked up the rifle at the Police station. The name "Amour" isn't masculine, by the way! Haha!

 

[nulook45]

well ells bells no coffee in the morning after such a all nighter with little sleep. i like you was arrested for domestic violence and when it came to court the prosicutor dissmised all the charges except for disorderly conduct a minor misdemeanor. wich i was found guilty i paid my fine 250 dollars and was released. two weeks later my 9mm smith was returned to me and had no problems for the last 5 years then last yr i atempted to purchase a ar-15 lower reciver and was denied based after a 6 month backlog at nics and was told that becaused i was charged with misdemeanor domestic violence my 2nd amendment rights to own a firearm wasnt suspended but they couldnt alow a person with an arest record of dv to recive a weapon of any kind. i have been fighting this thing ever since. the states ok with me owning guns the nics just wont ever aprove a background check untill i get my record expounged or have the local prosicutor do a restoration of rights and send it to them only problem there is the OHIO restoration of rights isnt accepted by the nics so im in limbo until ohio gets senate bill 247 into law and we <ohio> become compliant with nics . and all this was because my wife and i got into a shouting match and i left the house to get away from her with my pistol didnt threaten anyone just left she was being an ass and called the cops i spent 5 days in county lockup <It was labor day weekend > and was released as soon as i was arained . sorry i misread the mental thing i apologise no sleep and someone going thru the same thing as me
thx Jim

 

[crsuribe]

Wow that sounds really messed up Nulook. But I think your case is more of an exception than the general rule. At least from what I've read online. I certainly hope that won't be my case.