Question about picking up a pistol

[usmarine0352_2005]

A friend of mine had a question and I figured someone on here could help.

He was wondering if he bought a pistol at a Minnesota Cabelas, filled out all of the FFL papwerwork (passes NCIC of course) and pays for it, could he pick it up at the Cabelas in Anchorage, Alaska?




He said, the gun doesn't need to be in stock at the Minnesota Cabelas, as long as he can go to the Cabelas in Anchorage and it'll be there ready to be picked up. Is this duoable?

 

[NavyLCDR]

No, not possible. Why didn't he just ask Cabelas?

He would have to be a resident of Alaska in order for Cabelas (as a licensed FFL) in Alaska to transfer the handgun to him, and since each store has their own FFL for that location, he would need to do the 4473 and NICS check at the store that was actually going to physically transfer the gun to him.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

So could he do all the NCIC stuff at Cabelas in MN and then do it at the AK Cabelas again when he went to pick it up?


Or could he just put money down and have the pistol sent to the AK Cabelas store and then pick it up and do the NCIC or does he have to be a resident of AK?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Not unless he is a resident of both Minnesota and Alaska. The Cabelas in Alaska can only transfer handguns to residents of Alaska - that is Federal law.

If he does a form 4473 and NICS check for a handgun in a state that he is not a legal resident of the transfer will be denied by NICS.

I seriously doubt if Cabelas would make such special arrangements anyway, even if legally possible.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States

 

[Sam1911]

Yup, what NavyLCDR said.

He MUST take possession of that handgun in his state of residence. He cannot have it transferred to him -- by anyone, dealer or not -- in AK, if he's not a resident of AK.

Now, he can ship that gun to himself c/o someone in AK, so long as that person does not open the package. But I don't think there are any common carriers that will do that shipment for a non-licensee anymore.

Basically, he's going to have to take it with him.

 

[medalguy]

I think what you're asking about would have to work like this: Pay for the gun in Minnesota, nothing more. Have the Minnesota store ship it to his Alaska store. Pick up in Alaska and do the paperwork and NICS there where he is a resident. Or if it's a new gun, just have the Alaska store order whatever he wants. If it's a used gun, then the above procedure would be required.

 

[Sam1911]

Wait...which state is he a resident OF?

 

[NavyLCDR]

I think what you're asking about would have to work like this: Pay for the gun in Minnesota, nothing more. Have the Minnesota store ship it to his Alaska store. Pick up in Alaska and do the paperwork and NICS there where he is a resident. Or if it's a new gun, just have the Alaska store order whatever he wants. If it's a used gun, then the above procedure would be required.

That would be correct - but only if the purchaser is a resident of Alaska.

But I don't think there are any common carriers that will do that shipment for a non-licensee anymore.

Basically, he's going to have to take it with him.

That would be correct - both FEDEX and UPS terms and conditions of service require that either the sender or the recipient of a handgun be an FFL. Taking it with him would be a problem if he were traveling on the ground through Canada.

The question that REALLY MATTERS is what state is the purchaser a resident of?

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

He is a resident of MN.

 

[NavyLCDR]

He is a resident of MN.

Then that settles it. He cannot receive the handgun from Cabelas in Alaska. The next really important question is how is he traveling to Alaska?

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

Car.


What if he buys it at the Cabelas store and has them send it to the AK store and pays for the $25 or whst ever cost FFL transfer?

 

[witchhunter]

Why can't he buy it in Minnesota and take it with him?

 

[Aaron Baker]

Why can't he buy it in Minnesota and take it with him?

As has already been posted, he's apparently driving from Minnesota to Anchorage, Alaska. The only overland route between those two places involves driving through Canada, including a nice scenic drive on the ALCAN (Alaska-Canada Highway).

The problem with that is paperwork. It is possible to take a gun through Canada, but you must be careful to comply with Canada's firearms laws. Some pistols would be considered "prohibited" firearms in Canada, and it's harder to transport a prohibited firearm. It's easier to take a bolt-action hunting rifle than a pistol. But either way, there's paperwork involved. I'm guessing he's trying to avoid that.

My question is: why is he going to Anchorage? People who are going by car are often moving, rather than simply visiting. Visitors mostly fly, since flying to Anchorage is cheap compared to the cost of gas and lodging for the week-long drive.

If he's moving there, he is likely to be a resident of Alaska once he arrives, and can just buy the pistol there. On the other hand, there are several military bases in Anchorage, and if he's just being stationed there, I don't know how that affects the ATF's "residency" rules off the top of my head.

But "residency" has vastly different legal meanings for various things such as military discharge purposes, college in-state tuition purposes, voting purposes and handgun purchasing purposes. The important question is ONLY whether he's a resident for the ATF's purposes, and if he's going to be living in Alaska for a while, then it's possible he is.

Aaron

 

[Sam1911]

What if he buys it at the Cabelas store and has them send it to the AK store and pays for the $25 or whst ever cost FFL transfer?

The problem is that very transfer. The store getting it will have to log it into their book and transfer it to him on a 4473 form.

They CAN'T do that, at all, if he's not a resident of AK.

 

[Sam1911]

On the other hand, there are several military bases in Anchorage, and if he's just being stationed there, I don't know how that affects the ATF's "residency" rules off the top of my head.

Permanent orders to that base would count as residency there.

 

[Sam1911]

Residency for the purposes of firearms sales would be based on his presence in that state with an intent to make a home there. So he could be legal to buy a pistol in AK the day he arrives (if he truly is moving there). However, not having any documentation that establishes his residency will almost certainly end up with a dealer saying "no sale."

If he's going to travel there on vacation and really wants that pistol with him, flying is by far the better option. SOOOoooo much less hassle.

 

[xtphreak]

I would google "gun dealer Anchorage AK" and ask someone who has probably done it before.
Wild West Guns on Homer is one I remember, Great Northern Guns another.

If you know anyone in AK, have an FFL ship it to you care of them.

They cannot open the package.

 

[hso]

What he might do is purchase the firearm in MN where he's a resident and ship it to himself in AK.

 

[NavyLCDR]

What he might do is purchase the firearm in MN where he's a resident and ship it to himself in AK.

Except that, as previously explained, it is a requirement of the UPS and FEDEX terms and conditions of service that either the shipper or recipient of a firearm hold an FFL.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I would google "gun dealer Anchorage AK" and ask someone who has probably done it before.
Wild West Guns on Homer is one I remember, Great Northern Guns another.

If you know anyone in AK, have an FFL ship it to you care of them.

They cannot open the package.

So, you are suggesting that an FFL ship a firearm in interstate commerce to a third party who hasn't even completed the form 4473 or a background check? That violates several Federal laws and will not only cause the FFL to lose their license, but probably get an all expense paid trip to a federal prison.

 

[NavyLCDR]

This thread is just getting full of suggestions of how to work around the laws and regulations with actions that, at best, violate the FEDEX and UPS terms and conditions of service and at worst would cause an FFL and other parties involved to violate Federal law.

Maybe the OP should just work it out with Cabela's. They have probably already told him absolutely no way and he is trying to come up with a way to convince them to do something they already know is against Federal law.

 

[xtphreak]

So, you are suggesting that an FFL ship a firearm in interstate commerce to a third party who hasn't even completed the form 4473 or a background check? That violates several Federal laws and will not only cause the FFL to lose their license, but probably get an all expense paid trip to a federal prison.

No.

First, I'm suggesting that he get in touch with an FFL in Alaska & ask them how best to accomplish this.
Because I'll bet someone else has needed to do this also.

And in the other suggestion, the FFL would be sending the pistol to the OWNER c/o the alaska friend, I'd think USPS Priority Mail.
Same conditions, not to be opened, no firearms labeling, etc.

I don't know that an FFL would do that, but I also don't know where that's spelled out as illegal.

Perhaps you can quote the statute that forbids it?

My current suggestion would be to email BATFE and ask them, not some local agent.

It is a problem, no doubt.

 

[Midwest]

If he is a Minnesota resident and on his way (right now) to Alaska. Tell him to forget the pistol but he should be able able to buy a long gun from an FFL in Alaska.

.

 

[NavyLCDR]

And in the other suggestion, the FFL would be sending the pistol to the OWNER c/o the alaska friend, I'd think USPS Priority Mail.
Same conditions, not to be opened, no firearms labeling, etc.

I don't know that an FFL would do that, but I also don't know where that's spelled out as illegal.

Perhaps you can quote the statute that forbids it?

My current suggestion would be to email BATFE and ask them, not some local agent.

It is a problem, no doubt.

The BATFE has already answered the question:

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf

Printed page 3:

Note: You may only deliver the firearm to the person on whom the NICS or State background check was conducted and NOT a spouse, relative, or other representative of that person.

Regarding the US Postal Service, Domestic Mail Manual:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm

12.1.3 Authorized Persons

Subject to 12.1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, a licensed importer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person's official duties:

a. Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.

b. Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.

c. Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.

d. USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.

e. Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.

f. Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.

g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 12.1.3c. through 12.1.3e.

This is the federal regulation, CFR 478.124 that prohibits the FFL from delivering the firearm to a third party:

§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer shall not sell or
otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently,
of any firearm to any person, other
than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms
transaction record, Form 4473: Provided,
That a firearms transaction record, Form
4473, shall not be required to record the
disposition made of a firearm delivered to
a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or
customizing when such firearm or a replacement
firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.

The "in care of" recipient of the firearm would not be completing the form 4473, and the FFL would, indeed, be temporarily disposing the firearm to that person.

 

[NavyLCDR]

FEDEX Terms of Service:
http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guide/terms/express-ground/index.html

FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:

Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

FedEx Ground will transport and deliver firearms (excluding handguns) as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:

Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

UPS terms of service:

http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_us.pdf

3.6.1 Firearms
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies; and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state, or local law from (i) an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual.