Muzzle Swept with loaded gun at LGS

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Digger

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I'm sure at one time or another, we have all been "muzzle swept" at a the LGS, either my employees or customers, usually with an unloaded gun, but this one was different. Was at the shop Saturday with my daughter, picking up some cleaning supplies, etc. The shop was busy and everybody was hoping. I catch a flash out of the corner of my eye, like a mirror in the sun. It was the polished barrel bushing of a 1911 pointed right at me! This one wasn't being handled by anyone, but rather in a horizontal shoulder holster of one of the employees. This has been my big hang up with this type of holster, that you basically "cover" everyone behind you.
This isn't one of those shops that just hands you a firearm to look at either. They usually hand you a rifle with the action open and verify the handguns before they pass them off to you. Very safety concious. Well, after this happened, I moved, of course. But it got me thinking, what about all of those people who do carry with this method? Is there any concern about sweeping people? I don't use one because most of the time one of my daughters would be behind me in the car, etc. Any thoughts on this? Am I being a bit sensitive?
 
No. There is no concern. A holstered gun is a safe gun. I don't like such for USE, especially on the range, as drawing the gun means you are, at least for a brief second each time, manipulating that gun with your hands on it while it is pointed in an unsafe direction. But worrying about a gun that is holstered is probably taking things quite a bit too far.

If you carry a gun, chances are the muzzle covers some part of your body when you sit, stand, drive, walk, etc. Heck, some guys like to "appendix carry" at 1:00-2:00! Their holstered guns constantly cover their femur, femoral artery, and ... other things ... and no one frets about it.

Holstered guns that stay in the leather just don't go off.
 
I understand how digger feels, even though I've read a number of discussions about this very topic. Now, while it's true that an gun will not discharge with out some type of manipulation, the idea of the business end of a firearm FACING me makes me very very uncomfortable. Even if there's a firearm laying on the table, I will make a conscious effort to not have it point in my direction (by moving it, or if I'm not able I will move myself).
 
I'd be a lot more concerned about it while it is going into the holster than after it is already there.

My issue with the shoulder holster is that you have to sweep everybody and their brother during the draw and holstering motions. With the hip holsters, you are only sweeping your own rear end and calf/ankle if not careful.
 
This is very common with shoulder holsters. You pretty much "cover" someone with the muzzle any time you wear one, including yourself if it's a vertical model.

Frankly you are covering something with your muzzle nearly all the time with any holstered gun, most likely your own leg or thigh.

There are 4 rules remember. A "violation" of one of the 4 by a firearm not in human hands isn't really a "violation".

It's the human that's the problem, not the gun. If the human isn't touching it I feel like I can trust the gun not to shoot me :)
 
There are 4 rules remember. A "violation" of one of the 4 by a firearm not in human hands isn't really a "violation".

It's the human that's the problem, not the gun. If the human isn't touching it I feel like I can trust the gun not to shoot me
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There ya go!
 
I had just arrived at an indoor range about ten years ago and was talking to the range master as he was looking through the glass at the shooters on the line. He flinched noticeably and ducked his head about a foot and I wondered what that was about as I didn't see anything. He got on the mic and called the guy in the lane directly in front of him off the line. Dude came in wondering what the problem was. He was carrying a 1911 in a horizontal shoulder rig and had just taken off his jacket. The range master told him that his gun was totally safe but asked that he either put his jacket back on or un-holster the gun and lay it on his shooting bench while he was there. The guy said he wasn't going to shoot the 1911 and wouldn't be drawing it but the range master said that it just really made him uncomfortable looking out to see a muzzle pointed his direction. The shooter ended up 'checking' his 1911 with the range so he didn't need to wear his jacket or have his pistol laying out with brass bouncing off of it. I carry a backup gun in a rig such as this when I go on long road trips as my 4 O'clock IWB is slow and clumsy to draw while seat belted into a vehicle. Other than this particular use I really don't like shoulder rigs for all the reasons that we all know.
 
I always carry my G22 in a shoulder holster. I have to agree with Sam1911. Since it's in the holster, and the trigger is completely covered by leather, I don't worry about it. When holstering and unholstering I do take care and keep my finger alongside the frame, away from the trigger guard, because I see that point as having the most potential for accidents to happen.
 
Oh, that's nothing. I was waiting for my turn at the gun counter in SW today what the salesman dealing with the couple in front of me picked up a pistol off of the counter and literally aimed it at the next salesman on the counter, about 7-8 yards away. He was showing/explaining to the couple how the gun becomes an extension of his arm when drawn. Now, I'm glad that he didn't aim it out into the store, and I watched him drop the magazine and cycle the slide a couple of times, but he could have pointed it toward the gun rack behind him or something. Just made me a little nervous...
 
The problem I have with that style of holster is holstering/unholstering. How can you holster the gun while not endangering whatever is behind you (and most likely, several rooms away)? In a GOOD holster, it's safe when it's being carried. In some of the shirt holsters that have elastic pockets for the gun, NO, NO, NO!!!!

As for seeing a muzzle pointed at you, even it it's 'safe' I consider it quite rude - that just freaks a lot of people out, and for good reason too.
 
Add my vote to the "too sensitive" pile. I'll admit that I don't exactly get a warm fuzzy feeling any time a gun is pointed at me, but as has been pointed out, a holstered firearm isn't much of a threat to anyone.
 
Add my vote to the "too sensitive" pile. I'll admit that I don't exactly get a warm fuzzy feeling any time a gun is pointed at me, but as has been pointed out, a holstered firearm isn't much of a threat to anyone.
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Another vote for that.

Your belt holstered gun covers everyone downstairs as well as your legs/feet ... if the holster is pf proper design getting over it is the best option.
 
Mr.510 said:
The shooter ended up 'checking' his 1911 with the range so he didn't need to wear his jacket or have his pistol laying out with brass bouncing off of it.
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Of course, the irony is that the safest place it could have been was right where it was originally. If a discharge were to happen, it would have happened when he un-holstered it to make the RO comfortable.
 
Of course, the irony is that the safest place it could have been was right where it was originally. If a discharge were to happen, it would have happened when he un-holstered it to make the RO comfortable.
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Good point!
A lot of NDs have happened while someone meaning well monkeyed with a holstered gun to make a ninny feel better.
The sad part is that the ninny walks away feeling justified about the "dangerous gunz" when their insistence caused someone to handle a firearm while not paying 100% attention to it, the person demanding useless handling and manipulation shares some of the blame.
 
Add my vote to the "too sensitive" pile.
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I agree.

Just because a holster points down, doesn't make it safe. That round isn't going to magically stop when it goes off and strikes the ground in a ND. Aside from that, my muzzle points at people often when holstered IWB. Walk through the grocery store and walmart once while bending over, kneeling or whatever...and you've likely swept several people's kids with your muzzle. It's pretty much impossible to holster it and remain perfectly upright the rest of your day. Even if you could, you would still have ricochets and other possibilities to deal with.
 
I feel a bit uncomfortable when any gun is pointing at me, holstered included.

The worst that sticks out in my mind was a IPSC racegun in one of those barely-there holsters. When the dude sat down it pointed straight backward, and raceguns and race-holsters don't exactly inspire confidence, with the light trigger, easy draw and all.

I moved my chair.
 
Ask yourselves. You're alone in a room. On the other side of the room, laying on the desk is a gun which happens to pointing in your direction. Do you move? Or get up to move the gun? The holstered gun in this thread is a similar issue to someone sitting next to the desk with the gun sitting on the desk; accessible at any moment, but harmless as it is.

If your answer is yes, I think you've got far more problems with the "evilness" of guns than you're willing to admit. The darned things are inanimate objects and they're always pointing somewhere....oh no, come to think of it, the ones in my safe point out towards the west and only two walls separate them from my living room...I'm sure I've been "swept" a time or two.
 
berettaprofessor said:
If your answer is yes, I think you've got far more problems with the "evilness" of guns than you're willing to admit.
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I mostly agree, but NDs never happen to people who are overly cautious. But they most certainly happen to people who aren't. So I guess if you're going to err on one side or the other, the paranoid side is still the better option.
 
ny32182 wrote:

I'd be a lot more concerned about it while it is going into the holster than after it is already there.

My issue with the shoulder holster is that you have to sweep everybody and their brother during the draw and holstering motions.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree. I've been carrying a 1911 almost daily for 14 yrs. and I am disheartened to hear this kind of thing still being propagated.

I have addressed this issue on another forum. A PROPER draw stroke from a horizontal shoulder rig, covers very little. Sam1911 nailed it in his post above.

If you carry, chances are...you are covering yourself (or something) at some point.

A properly working firearm, holstered and otherwise un-manipulated...is of no danger to anyone.

Just the same...those who shoulder carry, and especially those who disparage the method, might glean something from the following.. (please read both links).

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewto...olutions&sid=5b4017ee57d9dc57f00394b6db93003c

As to subject matter of this thread, I fall on the side of over sensitivity in this instance.

Just my .02 on it.

Flint.
 
I'm just curious, since most people are concerned with a rearward facing muzzle, should we not carry a standard downward facing rig in the second floor of our homes?

My point is, if you are worried about a ND...the bullet will ricochet in a downward facing holster. Or should we start strapping buckets of sand or some other guaranteed safe backstop to our thighs?
 
I agree with Sam1911, I feel some go way over the top regarding this, hope they never go to a gus show, remember all those guns, whatever they may be are all pointing at someone, unless its the dealers against the walls.
 
Waywatcher, I might get twitchy with a racegun / game rig, too ... but a regular holster and a EDC gun ... not so much.

Here's a thought, in a normal downward-pointing holster if a MD* occurred while you were standing on a hard surface, everyone in a radius of a few yards would be in danger of shrapnel when that bullet impacted the unsafe backstop of the concrete or other hard surface.

* (that's magical discharge, because a gun in a proper holster will require multiple spontaneous simultaneous mechanical failures to fire)

Coming up tomorrow on THR, a thread about "the guns under the glass at a shop were pointing at my knees!"
 
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