Muzzle Swept with loaded gun at LGS

[GLOOB]

I'm obviously in the minority, but I think it's a really crappy choice to carry in an open-ended, horizontal shoulder holster, unconcealed, in a place of business. At least use a full holster that conceals the muzzle! I know that a holster doesn't stop bullets, but it would at least mean that the OP could never have turned around and 1. realized a gun was pointing at his face, followed by 2. the realization that it's holstered, followed by 3. finally verifying that the guy's hand is not on the gun as he is getting ready to shoot him ninja-style, while he's crouched over, unloading a box.

As for the argument that you're always sweeping your own leg and other people, anyways - I consciously avoid doing this, myself.

When I open carry, I carry strong side. And I cant the gun so the muzzle is swept back. This isn't the fastest way to draw nor the most comfortable way to reholster. But I never have to point the gun at my own leg. And the only way I would sweep someone else is if they were standing 1 foot behind me. And then I'd only be sweeping their foot.

When I CCW, I carry appendix. Same deal. I use a strong rake, so the muzzle is pointing away from me. I prefer to avoid pointing the gun at my femoral artery, if at all possible. Again, unless I'm doing cartwheels or sitting on someone, there's little chance I would sweep anyone but their feet. And since it's concealed, it wouldn't draw any ire.

With a shoulder holster, you have the option of going vertical. I'd much prefer to be standing behind someone using this style, if openly carried. If concealed, I'd never know, so who cares? Even though it's holstered, so what? If there was really zero chance it would be drawn or handled in your presence, then he might as well be carrying a bologna sandwich in there. And a gun is not a bologna sandwich.

 

[bigfatdave]

If concealed, I'd never know, so who cares?

Wait ... wait just a minute.

The safety concern only exists IF VISIBLE?

 

[GLOOB]

Well, you can't fault someone if you don't know!? And I realize it's POSSIBLE that the guy's gun is in good working order and that he actually knows how to draw and holster it in a safe fashion. So I guess he'd get the benefit of the doubt. But I'd still be moving myself away from the muzzle if I saw it pointing between my eyes.

See my revised post, first paragraph. I think you'd find it irritating to be the OP in this situation, too. Even a full holster with covered muzzle would be a better choice.

What's the difference between that and sweeping someone else with the safety on and finger off the trigger? In either case you have control of the gun. It doesn't matter if "the safety is on" or "don't worry, it's unloaded!"

If it were my business I wouldn't allow shoulder holsters or cross draw holsters on my firing line, and I wouldn't allow them in my store. Concealed is concealed. But if I knew about it, and it was staring my customers in the face, then it would have to go.

 

[GoWolfpack]

The safest a gun can possibly get is when no one is handling it.

 

[GLOOB]

The safest gun is the loaded gun I'm holding in my hand, while observing the 4 universal gun rules.

 

[Nushif]

There's a lot of *feeling* it's not right in this thread, but not a lot of objective analysis of an object being unsafe while not being handled, I think.
Where is the difference between the Anti's argument of guns not "feeling" safe in the hands of anyone not trained by ye olde government and the argument that we simply don't like a firearm holstered in any one particular way? It's a matter of degrees. And that's what we have to decide. How close to potentially disallowing carrying a firearm are we at this point if we only allow this kind of holster in that kind of situation?

Do I think it's the smartest way to carry? No more or less smart than me pointing the gun at my "derriere" (for all you sensitive souls here) because I carry it at a four and a half o' clock position. Or me carrying an M4 slung while walking and pointing it at my calf every two steps. Or someone carrying it and pointing at the person's foot in line at the bank.

Let's face it folks. IS GUN! NOT SAFE.

I am all about minimizing risks, but a holstered gun is pretty fudgruckened (again, don't wanna hurt the sensibilities here) safe.

 

[ny32182]

ny32182 wrote:


Quote:
I'd be a lot more concerned about it while it is going into the holster than after it is already there.

My issue with the shoulder holster is that you have to sweep everybody and their brother during the draw and holstering motions.

I respectfully disagree. I've been carrying a 1911 almost daily for 14 yrs. and I am disheartened to hear this kind of thing still being propagated.

I have addressed this issue on another forum. A PROPER draw stroke from a horizontal shoulder rig, covers very little. Sam1911 nailed it in his post above.

If you carry, chances are...you are covering yourself (or something) at some point.

A properly working firearm, holstered and otherwise un-manipulated...is of no danger to anyone.

Just the same...those who shoulder carry, and especially those who disparage the method, might glean something from the following.. (please read both links).

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtop...0394b6db93003c

As to subject matter of this thread, I fall on the side of over sensitivity in this instance.

Just my .02 on it.

Flint.

Flint, I don't disagree with anything Sam said above. He didn't mention the draw and reholster motion.

The pics in the link, they do as good a job as you can do keeping the muzzle low, but they are still sweeping almost 180 degrees with the gun out of the holster, in their hand. Not to mention his wrist has to be in an awkward position at one point to even do as well as he does keeping the muzzle relatively low. I would not be standing to their left at the range, that is for sure.

I don't think the shoulder holster should be outlawed or anything ridiculous like that... if you can find a safe place to practice with no one to your left, that is great. And if it ever needs to be drawn outside of the range, IMO, sweeping people is probably the least of anyone's worries at that point.

Regarding some other replies about the danger only existing if you can see the muzzle? Try shooting an old t-shirt or jacket sometime... you will find that neither one will stop a bullet. You have to believe a holstered gun is either safe, or not. A couple layers of cotton fabric are not a determining factor.

 

[Sam1911]

Flint, I don't disagree with anything Sam said above. He didn't mention the draw and reholster motion.

Yes, I believe I did.

I don't like such for USE, especially on the range, as drawing the gun means you are, at least for a brief second each time, manipulating that gun with your hands on it while it is pointed in an unsafe direction.

Shoulder holsters, cross-draws, ankle rigs, and the dreaded SOB, all require very strict discipline in use. They pose unacceptable risks when used on a range with other shooters -- in all but the very most circumscribed situations.

I'd almost go as far as to say VERY few people who buy and use these rigs understand and develop those practices and remain blissfully ignorant of the danger to which they expose themselves and other shooters when they "slap leather."

Almost, but I'd better not actually say that or somebody here who owns them will think I meant them, and not some other jerk who flags half the firing line on the draw.

 

[ny32182]

Oops... I just scrolled up and took a look at one of your posts, and it wasn't that one. But, it sounds like we pretty much share the same opinion on all aspects of this one.

 

[jcwit]

The safest a gun can possibly get is when no one is handling it.

Absolutly true.

The safest gun is the loaded gun I'm holding in my hand, while observing the 4 universal gun rules.

False, suppose you sneeze and drop the gun, somebody comes into the room and slaps you on the back, or anyone of hundreds of things. If one contents that they would never be that suprised they are voicing an oponion about something that hasn't happened yet! No one knows what the future holds.

 

[Flintknapper]

Sam1911 wrote:

Shoulder holsters, cross-draws, ankle rigs, and the dreaded SOB, all require very strict discipline in use.

ALL methods of carry require "strict discipline" in order to maintain an acceptable level of safety, but I will concede the methods you cite can be more problematic. Depends largely upon the user.

They pose unacceptable risks when used on a range with other shooters -- in all but the very most circumscribed situations.

Agreed. In an environment where the weapon is to be handled (drawn, re-holstered, fired, etc), and other people are nearby, the chances for mishap are increased. Various reasons for that (that you and I are both aware of).

I'd almost go as far as to say VERY few people who buy and use these rigs understand and develop those practices and remain blissfully ignorant of the danger to which they expose themselves and other shooters when they "slap leather."

I'll go all the way! It is precisely for the reasons above...that objections to shoulder carry (and some other methods) exist.

Almost, but I'd better not actually say that or somebody here who owns them will think I meant them, and not some other jerk who flags half the firing line draw.

You'll never get that from me. If nothing else....I try to be intellectually honest. There is no denying...some people are complete idiots in regards to gun handling.

Every method of "carry" has its strong and weak points, each requires a set of bio-mechanical skills specific to that method.... in order to be as safe as is possible. It is the responsibility of the person carrying a firearm... to seek out and practice that information.

 

[bigfatdave]

if you can find a safe place to practice with no one to your left, that is great. And if it ever needs to be drawn outside of the range, IMO, sweeping people is probably the least of anyone's worries at that point.

This makes a lot of sense, but the thread is about someone who got squeamish with the weapon untouched and safely holstered. I admit it, if I knew I was behind someone with a shoulder rig and knew they were about to draw, I would be a bit less calm about it than just hanging out behind a gun that is essentially rendered inert by the holster.
But if the guy in front of me is drawing, chances are I'm exiting or heading to cover to decide if I need to draw, too ... and my draw will be more discrete.
But if some guy wants to take point and leave me to lurk and assess, that's fine with me!

===

Side note, corneredcat has a good illustrated lesson on how to use a shoulder holster ... good reading for men & women alike.
http://www.corneredcat.com/Holster/shoulder.aspx

 

[HarleyFixer]

There seems to be an inordinate fear amoungst people who SHOULD be more familiar and comfortable with guns and gun handling. I have carried for 40 years in capacities where almost all my co-workers were also armed. The guns were carried in every conceivable manner including mexican carry. I have witnessed VERY few ND and none relating to the holster or lack thereof. I guess I just work with professionals.

 

[Sam1911]

I guess I just work with professionals

Like the man say, "I'm the only one in this room, that I know of, professional enough to carry this Glock 40."

 

[Ala Dan]

I don't care for shoulder rigs, period~! But, that is just MY personal opinion.
I'm short [and a big large], so they just don't work for me~!

 

[Flintknapper]

Sam1911 wrote:

Like the man say, "I'm the only one in this room, that I know of, professional enough to carry this Glock 40."

Yeah, that ones a Classic.

Actually the guy was O.K. as long as he was "carrying", his problems only started when he "handled" the weapon.

Did you see all the students begin to scamper when he hobbled over to the long gun.

 

[GLOOB]

Safe or not, I think it's dumb. A shoulder holster has got to be the most uncomfortable way to carry a gun, and it's time consuming to put on. If I went through all that trouble, it would be to conceal the darn thing.

There are many ways to carry a gun where you don't sweep yourself or others. I choose these, if they are reasonable for my purpose. If I'm going to go with a more difficult or uncomfortable method of carry, it will be for a good reason. Concealment is the only good one I can think of, and even then I can't see a shoulder holster being the best option for anyone but a matadore. Or possibly for someone who wants to conceal a long barreled revolver... in a vertical rig.

 

[Werewolf]

The whole anti argument about gun control revolves around making people safe from themselves and others by removing guns.

Some of you are so wierded out about being swept and the possibility of an ND that you might as well just join the antis and ban guns. It's the only way you'll ever be safe.

Well - not really. But the way some of y'all are talking its probably the only way you'd ever feel safe around a gun is for there not to ever be a gun you'd have to be around. How the hell do y'all even go to the range to shoot? You have to break almost all 4 rules just to clean the things.

Tell you what. Y'all send your guns to me. that way you won't have to be a feared of gettin' shot by the evil things in your own hands or the incompetent hands of all the rest of us.

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

I am confused how the OP knew it was a loaded weapon since #1 it was in a holster, #2 it was an auto.
What about police officers? Their duty weapons are DEFINITELY loaded but you wouldn't worry about sitting across from a police officer with a drop leg holster. I will bet the police officer's weapon is not as well maintained as the gunshop clerk's 1911 which sounds like someone paid a lot of attention to as noted from the shiny bushing.

 

[GLOOB]

I'd be afraid of any Tackleberry that sported a drop-leg holster, unless he was geared up for a no-knock warrant. In which case I'd be really afraid. j/k. No, not really. Ok, J/K

How the hell do y'all even go to the range to shoot? You have to break almost all 4 rules just to clean the things.

No, you have to break 1 rule, only with some guns. This is to put your finger on the trigger when you don't intend to shoot. but even so you should be treating it the same as if it were loaded. All the other rules still apply, meaning pointing the gun in a safe direction, making sure of your backstop, and treating it with the same respect as it it were loaded. Whenever I hear the words "relax, it isn't loaded," I want to smack the speaker silly. Unloaded guns are the most dangerous ones.

 

[Werewolf]

I'd be afraid of any Tackleberry that sported a drop-leg holster, unless he was geared up for a no-knock warrant. In which case I'd be really afraid. j/k. No, not really. Ok, J/K


No, you have to break 1 rule, only with some guns. This is to put your finger on the trigger when you don't intend to shoot. but even so you should be treating it the same as if it were loaded. All the other rules still apply, meaning pointing the gun in a safe direction, making sure of your backstop, and treating it with the same respect as it it were loaded. Whenever I hear the words "relax, it isn't loaded," I want to smack the speaker silly. Unloaded guns are the most dangerous ones.

Rule 1: You discussed. You're a reasonable guy. Many so called gun guys aren't.

Personally I believe that once you take a gun apart it stops being a gun but there are many panty wetters out there that believe otherwise. For example while at the range once I had removed the cylinders from a couple of revolvers with fixed front and rear sights. I was filing the front sights down on them to raise the POA. The number of guys freaking out was amazing. OMG you're handling a gun unsafely, you just swept me or when the range was cold no gun handling, yada yada yada. Hey maroons - it ain't a gun anymore - no cylinder! Here, point the darn thing at me and pull the trigger, you can have my whole estate if I die when you do it from a gunshot. No cylinder, it can't fire! And oh by the way - go change yur panties, you've wet yourselves. :banghead:

So for all those guys to clean a gun you can't help but break the other three rules. It must be a really stressful business for them to clean 'em.

Hyperbole? Exageration? Yeah a little but it helps make a point...

...Which is - that life is too short to spend it worrying about all the little dangers out there in the real world that might kill ya. The only thing that worryin' about getting swept by a gun in a horizontal shoulder holster is gonna get you is an ulcer.

My guess is some people just got way too much time on their hands and use it to worry about stupid stuff.

 

[FlyinBryan]

sam said,,,,,,,

No. There is no concern. A holstered gun is a safe gun. I don't like such for USE, especially on the range, as drawing the gun means you are, at least for a brief second each time, manipulating that gun with your hands on it while it is pointed in an unsafe direction. But worrying about a gun that is holstered is probably taking things quite a bit too far.

If you carry a gun, chances are the muzzle covers some part of your body when you sit, stand, drive, walk, etc. Heck, some guys like to "appendix carry" at 1:00-2:00! Their holstered guns constantly cover their femur, femoral artery, and ... other things ... and no one frets about it.

Holstered guns that stay in the leather just don't go off.

and i would have to agree.

i carry a 4" 1911 in an open bottom concealment holster on my right hip. i also work on ladders quite frequently, with an apprentice standing below me.

there have been many times that he has said things like "i see you have switched from golden sabers to federal hydra-shok's",,,, just from looking up at the work im doing, and being able to see up my shirt and up the barrel, and view the round in the chamber. (he is a decent 1911 smith and never gives it a second thought (he is also a concealed carry license holder)

if its in the holster, i dont view it as being at all dangerous.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I think Sam1911 covered it pretty well. If the gun is holstered, it is safe, even if it covers you. However, these types of holsters certainly pose a challenge when being drawn from. I would not like to see someone at the local range using a shoulder holster to practice a hot draw.

 

[bigfatdave]

Whenever I hear the words "relax, it isn't loaded," I want to smack the speaker silly.

Idiots who use that phrase get told to put the muzzle in their mouth and to pull the trigger if they say it to me.
I'm done being nice to morons who think I can or should be able to determine the unloaded status of a gun. I might notice a revolver without cylinder, and I might notice a large chamber flag ... other than that, I don't want to hear about how some asshat's gun is "unloaded", unless they're willing to demonstrate with their own skull.

 

[FlyinBryan]

agreed dave.

a gun is unloaded when i'm looking at the empty cylinder, chamber, magazine

as far as i'm concerned, it always loaded beyond that