Questions about guns for a book

[Dewey123]

I am going to try and write a novel next month (http://www.nanowrimo.org/), and there are a few gun-related questions that I figured folks around here would be able to help me with.

Which would be a better SHTF/survival gun, a .22LR bolt action, or a .22LR semiauto? I realize that .22LR isn't the ideal SHTF round, but that's beside the point.

Secondly, Is it possible to fire a gun from horseback or around a horse without the horse freaking out? I'm sure horses can be trained not to mind gunfire, but how would a horse that is unused to gunshots react?

Thanks in advance.

 

[rodregier]

On firearm selection, good question, but comparable to asking about choices of motor vehicles for SHTF circumstances. The response will follow a pattern of "it depends" and the biases/preferences of the respondent.

 

[Yoda]

Define the conditions...

Is this for short-term urban survival against zombies or long-term survival and food procurement outside of town?

- - - Yoda

 

[mljdeckard]

We are arguing right now in a nearby thread which kind of .22 is the best. (If aq .22 is a good choice at all.) You might consider making one choice, and then working into the story why a different rifle might have been better or worse to round out the details. If it were me, and I were forced to take a .22 for survival, which would not be my main choice, it would be a Ruger 10/22 rifle. There are a bazillion upgrades you can put on them, the only thing I would change on mine is the sights, because apparently I'm getting old.

Horses vary. Obviously some horses have been conditioned to shooting, (watch "Tombstone", it's the most recent movie that comes to mind,) but the horse hunters I know dismount to fire. It's too difficult to fire accurately from horseback. (R. Lee Ermey recently tried it on Lock 'n' Load on The History Channel. Here's a man who knows a bit about shooting, he couldn't hit anything from horseback.) When I was growing up, if I was riding, I asked the horse owner if it was ok to shoot around them. I tried to always get the same horse. If you want to train a horse for shooting, I understand it's a process of tying them up, and starting a distance away from them and gradually getting closer.

 

[gondorian]

+1 mljdeckard. Different horses react totally differently to the same thing, especially in regard to spooking. I would guess that if you shot a .22 while mounted on a horse unused to gunfire it would get pretty freaked out. However I'm not volunteering to find out for sure.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Secondly, Is it possible to fire a gun from horseback or around a horse without the horse freaking out? I'm sure horses can be trained not to mind gunfire, but how would a horse that is unused to gunshots react?

It would depend on the horse. I've known one or two that a cannon going off nearby would only rate a flick of the ears. I've known others that would bolt from the sound of an action closing. Josie Wales firing revolvers over a horse's head works very well in Hollywood but in real life any horse with any kind of spirit would leave the rider sitting on the ground. With only chance or gravity deciding if he landed on his head or his butt. Firing at right angle to the body of the horse would be a 50/50 chance of staying in the saddle but, once again, would depend on the tolerance and spirit of the horse.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Look around the internet for cavalry manuals from the early 1900, I know that some early pistol manual will cover shooting the revolver and the 1911, main point is that much like door gunning in helicopters you have to lead or follow to make a hit, also not what you could consider the most stable platform for accuracy. So yes you can shoot, they been doing it for at least 200 years, the question is more how well.

Might want to toss in a 9mm carbine, definitely an SKS, AK and AR-15. BTW, if it's zombies in urban, the .22 is out or sorely outmatched.

 

[PT1911]

Might want to toss in a 9mm carbine, definitely an SKS, AK and AR-15. BTW, if it's zombies in urban, the .22 is out or sorely outmatched.

I am curious as to your rational here... seems to me the relative accuracy and abundance of ammunition one can carry would overcome any disadvantage the .22 has in range and "knock down."

 

[Dewey123]

Sorry for not mentioning the situation, and thanks for the answers so far. It isn't an urban zombie situation, it's more of a wilderness trek. A combo of food-gathering and a little self-defense. I am planning on giving the character(s) something with more oomph later on. Also, If you had to evacuate your house, assuming you had to leave at least some of your guns behind, how would you secure them? would you hide your guns in the hope that you would later be able to reclaim them, or would you just leave them where they are stored normally?

 

[Shadow 7D]

On the way out the door give a rifle to everybody that can carry one, ammo and pistols not carried go in rucks. If you're leaving do you expect to come back,if so when and after what?

The stopping power of a .22 can be addressed in large volume's of fire or extremely accurate fire, preferably both, a bolt .22 would be the last thing I wanted when dealing with zombies unless it was silenced, then backed up by something with more umpth.

Storage could be a cache or hidden somewhere you could gain access if needed. The assumption in a SHTF is that you will never see it again once you walk out the door, or variations on that theme. There are some great fiction reads around here somewhere along the lines of SHTF.

Lots of people will help you if you do a quick outline or synopsis, if you have a question about something, ask, if it's not possible you will find out, also if you want a gun to do something, ask, somebody probably has already made it and you'll get pointed that way.

 

[CapnMac]

Once again, curses on the foul miscreant who "borrowed" my grandfather's Notes on Training and Regulation for Mounted Units, never to return same.

Had fascinating tidbits, like how to select stock; how to train stock to manouvers; how to use the horses' natural instincts to operate in formations; even the proper methods for teaching the horses to tolerate military operations nearby.

As noted above, horses are different. Equine brain skills are very similar to dogs' and with as similar a range of dense to bright. One of the horses I rode fence with would go stock still and duck his head down if I drew the carbine from its scabbard. The other would try to go in circles as far as the leads for remount and pack horses would allow.

NTRMU went into detail about dry firing long arms and side arms with horses. Working new stock "in" by riding them to the range and piquetting them behind the firing line. Then bringing them up to the firing line and firing after taking the left hand and folding down the right ear of the horse. Which, allegedly, the horse would learn to do naturally.

Details always help writing. Survival situations with horses are not as simple as without. Things like having to check hooves; having spare shoes and nails; currying horses at the end of the day after staking (or hobbling) them on grazing. Having to deal with biting flies and skeeters on the horses, too. Needs for water and for pacing, too (trot, canter, walk, lead for march order, that sort of thing). You can cover more ground on horseback than afoot; but you have to get up earlier, and stay up later than afoot. Above 40ºN that means only about half a day before you need to start chopping wood for your survival fires. Get far up enough in the snowline, and you'll need fodder for the horses, too.

 

[Jim K]

On the caliber, the main advantage of a .22 LR is that you can easily carry 500 rounds. Try that with your .308 or .375 H&H.

The best rifle would probably be a Nylon 66. It is weather resistant, light, reliable, and has a good magazine capacity. A semi-auto allows several fast shots against a man-size target.

Jim

 

[Deanimator]

Which would be a better SHTF/survival gun, a .22LR bolt action, or a .22LR semiauto? I realize that .22LR isn't the ideal SHTF round, but that's beside the point.

Bolt actions are FAR more tolerant of variations in ammunition.

Secondly, Is it possible to fire a gun from horseback or around a horse without the horse freaking out? I'm sure horses can be trained not to mind gunfire, but how would a horse that is unused to gunshots react?

It depends entirely upon the horse. It's a matter of training. Cavalry horses were trained to tolerate the firing of .50-70 and .45-70 carbines from atop their backs.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Which would be a better SHTF/survival gun, a .22LR bolt action, or a .22LR semiauto? I realize that .22LR isn't the ideal SHTF round, but that's beside the point.

I would personally choose a bolt action, but if you have someone suddenly finding himself in a survival situation, he would be more likely to have a Ruger 10/22 than any other firearm. Generally, semi-autos are more popular these days.

Secondly, Is it possible to fire a gun from horseback or around a horse without the horse freaking out? I'm sure horses can be trained not to mind gunfire, but how would a horse that is unused to gunshots react?

As said earlier, it depends on the horse. I have killed many a deer from horseback (the proper technique is to slide off the horse, while drawing the .30-30 and shoot from the ground behind the horse.)

 

[Dewey123]

Alright, thanks for the horse info. And I think I'm going to have the character use a Marlin 981T (at least at first), it seems accurate from what I've heard around here. Thank you to everyone who responded.

 

[Officers'Wife]

And I think I'm going to have the character use a Marlin 981T (at least at first), it seems accurate from what I've heard around here.

At the risk of starting a war- perhaps the better choice would be the Marlin 39A. They are common rifle, extremely accurrate and easy to find a saddle scabbard for. Especially if the character is a city person that finds himself scavaging mount, tack and weapons. In that case his grandfather likely had the 39A lying around. Just my opinion and worth everything you paid for it.

However, it might be an interesting character development to take a person that has always believed meat came wrapped in plastic with no relation to a living animal slowly but surely coming to grips with the stark reality that humankind is still just a link in the food chain.

Selena

 

[MinnMooney]

Don't think that I'll be buying that book.

I realize that .22LR isn't the ideal SHTF round, but that's beside the point.

Huh? :banghead:

What kind of book research is that? You want us to help with the BEST SHTF rifle and then you limit the discussion to an ineffective, squirrel cartridge.

Here's my vote.... there is absolutely N-O best rifle in .22 rimfire anything that is the best SHTF rifle --- Period ---

Of course, that's only my 2c worth. I wouldn't hightail it to the wilderness OR try to fight zombies with a .22 rimfire. That cartridge has nearly zero protection from anything large than cottontail rabbit and as far as it's ability to down food - it's pretty well limited to small game.

My 1st choice is an AR style rifle in either .223Rem. or my LR-243. Five hundred rds of .243Win weigh in at 21 lbs with .223Rem weighing a tad less. That much firepower would last years in the wilderness but much less time in a firefight.

 

[Dewey123]

I realize the .22LR isn't the best SHTF gun out there, but that is what the main character will have. The low power and range of the rifle will serve to heighten tension, and the main character will upgrade to a more powerful weapon as soon as he can. As for Marlin 39A vs Marlin 981T, the 981T caught my eye (it is similar to the rifle I learned to shoot with). I think it is believable for a young man (18 or 19) to buy a >22 similar to one he used as a boy as his first rifle. Officer's wife, I like your idea in the second half of your post, I may have to use that. As always, thanks for the input.

 

[GRIZ22]

If I were limited to a 22 I'd want a semi-auto. Not really needed for small game hunting but if that's all you have for a self defense scenario you need to use 2-3 rounds quick.

As far as horses and guns go I do have limited experience. I used to ride horses when I worked in AZ. We had one horse that has probably been around gunfire more than many people on this forum. You could shoot 357s all day and it wouldn't bother him. We had another horse that would spook and take off in any direction with a gun going off nearby. He had caught a load of buckshot in his rump once and that explains why he did this.

In short, it all depends on the horse.

 

[mrghostwalker]

Give him a 12ga!

 

[gyvel]

My vote is for a bolt action .22.

(1) As pointed out earlier, it is capable of using a wide variety of ammunition, i.e. .22 shorts, long rifles AND shot cartridges.

(2) In a SHTF situation, mostly what you are going to want for survival is small game such as rabbits, squirrels, etc. Anything larger than that is going to go to waste due to the fact that it would be difficult to carry in situations where rapid mobility is a necessity. Furthermore, a relatively inexperienced "kid" would most likely not know how to dress out a large animal anyway.

(3) A bolt action .22 is going to go a long ways to help keep you from wasting ammunition.

(4) .22s are accurate and easy to shoot, and HAVE been known to bring down extremely large animals with well-placed shots.

(5) .22s are relatively quiet as opposed to larger centerfire calibres, and would generally draw attention over a smaller area than a much louder centerfire. This could also be a factor in acclimating a horse to gunfire. A .22 is a lot less of an initial "shock" to an animal.

(6) If there are human antagonists involved, nobody wants to be shot, even with a .22.

Just another opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[Vikingsoftpaw]

Thomson Center Arms break open single shot with a .22 LR barrel... TC's are also able to change barrels/calibers easily.

 

[LAK]

Browning SA-22

 

[notbubba]

I think the most common .22 rifles are the Marlin 60 & the Ruger 10/22.
Both are semi auto, the Marlin has been around longer so that may fit your bill.

Also 2 or 3 companies make survival 22 rifles, only one I can think of right now is the Henry.
The trigger, action & barrel can be removed and stored in the stock.

 

[dewage83]

SEMI-AUTO. I vote Marlin 795ss (my first gun) OR Marlin 70pss. The 795ss has a stainless steel barrel and polymer stock. The 70pss is almost identical with an easily removed, screw on barrel. Both extremely light. The second option being better option for the wilderness trek plot IMO. Unscrew the barrel and he could put it in his back pack, being a last resort self defense weapon.

As for shooting near or on a horse, not a clue. Does seem quite possible.