Range for handgun competency?
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KodiakBeer
member
I make 1 hole groups at 100 yards with my Hi Power. But then I usually throw a second shot out there and spoil it...
sm
member
One foot?
One can miss as close as 12 inches. Ask anyone that has taken some training and had to shoot under pressure, or stress. Ask anyone that has decided to shoot a varmint in a trap, or critter not in a trap.
I mention this as recently I chose to get back with one, with the snub nose revolver. At one time, I was pretty good. Bear in mind I was raised to learn to shoot revolvers first, as if one does, one becomes a better shooter with a semi-auto handgun.
No.
The snub nose is NOT the gun to learn to shoot with. A medium frame, .22 revolver is, then stepping up to a .38spl with mild loads.
Yes. I started shooting at One Foot, and working out to 3 yards, 5 yards, and then 7 yards. I continue to practice accessing the gun, and getting on target at One Foot, and getting "quick, effective" hits.
I use Mr. H's idea of shooting 1/4 sheet of typing paper. The paper does not lie.
I also continue the "set ups and lessons" by Mentors & Elders. You see, I come up and spent a life in high risk. So starting very young, as I started handguns at age 3...
Stuff Moves.
There is a old adage: If you ain't moving, you should be shooting, if you are not shooting, you should be reloading...repeat.
In my real life experiences, not many "threats" were stationary, nor I, or both.
So I come up shooting on the move, or at moving, three dimensional targets.
Yes, I have, and can still, miss a Four inch balloon, blowing in the wind, at One Foot.
Which sorta hurt my ego, but reminded me to work harder on getting back up to speed with a .38spl snub nose revolver.
I had recently taken a coyote at 19 steps with this gun down at the burn pile, a moving groundhawg at about 7 steps, some gophers on the move from "right here" to out to about 10 steps, and put all five rounds into a stationary playing card, at 3, 5, and 7 steps. (about a yard for my stride).
I got a chipmunk today at about a yard. Just out in yard, here on the farm, and he popped up, and I drew from back pocket, and as he scooted away, I nailed him.
Once again, one has to be able to access the gun, and make quick effective hits.
The reality is, threats are often close and one would be wise to get quality lessons and continue quality practice for distances they would encounter in real situations.
While I am having fun, I am having serious fun, as passed to me by Mentors & Elders.
I miss my Mentors & Elders...
*sniff*
One can miss as close as 12 inches. Ask anyone that has taken some training and had to shoot under pressure, or stress. Ask anyone that has decided to shoot a varmint in a trap, or critter not in a trap.
I mention this as recently I chose to get back with one, with the snub nose revolver. At one time, I was pretty good. Bear in mind I was raised to learn to shoot revolvers first, as if one does, one becomes a better shooter with a semi-auto handgun.
No.
The snub nose is NOT the gun to learn to shoot with. A medium frame, .22 revolver is, then stepping up to a .38spl with mild loads.
Yes. I started shooting at One Foot, and working out to 3 yards, 5 yards, and then 7 yards. I continue to practice accessing the gun, and getting on target at One Foot, and getting "quick, effective" hits.
I use Mr. H's idea of shooting 1/4 sheet of typing paper. The paper does not lie.
I also continue the "set ups and lessons" by Mentors & Elders. You see, I come up and spent a life in high risk. So starting very young, as I started handguns at age 3...
Stuff Moves.
There is a old adage: If you ain't moving, you should be shooting, if you are not shooting, you should be reloading...repeat.
In my real life experiences, not many "threats" were stationary, nor I, or both.
So I come up shooting on the move, or at moving, three dimensional targets.
Yes, I have, and can still, miss a Four inch balloon, blowing in the wind, at One Foot.
Which sorta hurt my ego, but reminded me to work harder on getting back up to speed with a .38spl snub nose revolver.
I had recently taken a coyote at 19 steps with this gun down at the burn pile, a moving groundhawg at about 7 steps, some gophers on the move from "right here" to out to about 10 steps, and put all five rounds into a stationary playing card, at 3, 5, and 7 steps. (about a yard for my stride).
I got a chipmunk today at about a yard. Just out in yard, here on the farm, and he popped up, and I drew from back pocket, and as he scooted away, I nailed him.
Once again, one has to be able to access the gun, and make quick effective hits.
The reality is, threats are often close and one would be wise to get quality lessons and continue quality practice for distances they would encounter in real situations.
While I am having fun, I am having serious fun, as passed to me by Mentors & Elders.
I miss my Mentors & Elders...
*sniff*
sixgunner455
Member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2006
- Messages
- 3,052
I hesitate to jump into this, but I do have an opinion or three, so I think that I will. My internet typing is just as valid as anyone else's, after all.
I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread, but I think that there has been too much said about one thing and another. What I think, what I have experienced, is that if you want to be able to shoot a particular weapon well at a particular distance, you have to actually do it, and you have to keep practicing it. You can't say, "I've mastered that, time to move on." You can add to your practice, you can focus on something else, but whenever you do, you have to remember that you are neglecting that thing that you started out saying that you'd mastered.
When I was younger, I had one gun, a Ruger .22 semiauto. I shot it all the time, hundreds and hundreds of rounds per month. I shot up close, rapid fire, small ragged groups. I plinked at rocks at long range. I sniped butterflies. I could outshoot my brother, who used a .22 rifle, at any range, any target. I was all that and a bag of chips - in my own mind, at least.
I have more guns now, and *I can't shoot that good old pistol as well as I used to.* The gun is no different. I still shoot it better than some of my other guns, but I'm not as practiced with it, not as devoted to it, so I'm not as good with it.
Practice at 3 feet makes you good at what you're doing at 3 feet. Practice at 50 yards makes you good at what you're doing at 50 yards. The challenge of long-range shooting can translate to better marksmanship at other ranges as well, so long as *you keep practicing at the other ranges, too.* 3/3/3 doesn't improve much when you're only shooting long range, slow fire marksmanship practice.
It is true that most defensive shooting incidents take place at close range. Practicing for that is smart - reactive drills, point-blank shooting, etc. It does make you better at it. But it doesn't make you better at long range. Serious marksmanship practice at longer ranges, especially if you live in wide, open spaces, is smart, too. But it doesn't really make you better at drawing and firing quickly at a close, sudden threat. It might make you a better handgun hunter, and will certainly make you a better marksman overall.
I can't see me practicing one thing exclusively, but I do spend more of my handgun time at close range nowadays. That doesn't mean I'm going to exclude other things, though.
And, like Steve, I'm feeling the need to get more in tune with my snubbie, from up close to a ways out there.
I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread, but I think that there has been too much said about one thing and another. What I think, what I have experienced, is that if you want to be able to shoot a particular weapon well at a particular distance, you have to actually do it, and you have to keep practicing it. You can't say, "I've mastered that, time to move on." You can add to your practice, you can focus on something else, but whenever you do, you have to remember that you are neglecting that thing that you started out saying that you'd mastered.
When I was younger, I had one gun, a Ruger .22 semiauto. I shot it all the time, hundreds and hundreds of rounds per month. I shot up close, rapid fire, small ragged groups. I plinked at rocks at long range. I sniped butterflies. I could outshoot my brother, who used a .22 rifle, at any range, any target. I was all that and a bag of chips - in my own mind, at least.
I have more guns now, and *I can't shoot that good old pistol as well as I used to.* The gun is no different. I still shoot it better than some of my other guns, but I'm not as practiced with it, not as devoted to it, so I'm not as good with it.
Practice at 3 feet makes you good at what you're doing at 3 feet. Practice at 50 yards makes you good at what you're doing at 50 yards. The challenge of long-range shooting can translate to better marksmanship at other ranges as well, so long as *you keep practicing at the other ranges, too.* 3/3/3 doesn't improve much when you're only shooting long range, slow fire marksmanship practice.
It is true that most defensive shooting incidents take place at close range. Practicing for that is smart - reactive drills, point-blank shooting, etc. It does make you better at it. But it doesn't make you better at long range. Serious marksmanship practice at longer ranges, especially if you live in wide, open spaces, is smart, too. But it doesn't really make you better at drawing and firing quickly at a close, sudden threat. It might make you a better handgun hunter, and will certainly make you a better marksman overall.
I can't see me practicing one thing exclusively, but I do spend more of my handgun time at close range nowadays. That doesn't mean I'm going to exclude other things, though.
And, like Steve, I'm feeling the need to get more in tune with my snubbie, from up close to a ways out there.
easyg
Member
Not likely.
And not very realistic outside of Iraq or Afghanistan.
If you are being shot at by an assailant who is 100 yards away, regardless of whether you've "mastered" long range handgun shooting or not, the best strategy is to find cover ASAP.
The fact is that most shooters are just average "working Joes" who only have so much time and money for pistol practice.
I think that the time and money is better spent on practicing for realistic scenarios.
ForumSurfer
Member
easyg said:
I agree. I know very few people who can make pistol shots at 100 yards. Maybe 1 out of 10 of those guys can hit a moving target at that distance. Even with a rifle, the average shooter will find difficulty hitting 100 yard moving shots...much less an ill trained criminal firing on me, so if I'm taking fire at 100 yards I'll seek cover.
Still, I like to focus my last %10 of rounds on long range practice outside of my comfort zone. For one, it is fun and I want to shoot to train AND have a good time. Two, it's outside of my comfort zone...we all need to step outside of that.
If my budget is limited and I'm only shooting 100 or so rounds on a particular weekend, I'll stick to my 25 yard limit. I generally try to shoot at least 200, and make 10-20 shots st distance shooting at jumbo sized cans. If I start hitting the can with regularity, I move back or slap a target up to see what my group is like.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Obviously, everyone must decide for themselves what is and isn't important. However, one cannot deny that shooting beyond 25yds improves your shooting skill for ranges under that. You can slap the trigger and hit a silhouette all day long at 7yds but move the target out and your poor technique becomes painfully clear. As has been said a hundred times, it's simply another tool in your toolbox. It certainly won't hurt but it could save your life. Judging by 90% of the shooting done at the local indoor range, most folks could use all the help they can get.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Definitely, lots of folks are very comfortable in their little bubble.
M2 Carbine
member
I must say I agree with every word.
People sometimes ask me why I practice shooting small handguns out to 52 yards. My answer is because I might have to shoot someone at 52 yards distance (besides it's fun).
I've never seen in the bad guy's book of rules and regulations that he can't shoot at you beyound 5-10 yards.
I always said if ever I get in a handgun fight I hope it is about 50 yards.
And your never too young (or old) to learn.
(the target is the 12 inch square white plate and the young lady seldom misses)
And as it should be, she is also accurate and fast at 10 yards.
Last edited:
I’m not sure that I do…
Are you saying that no one can use a handgun for defensive purposes beyond 50 yards, and anyone that says they can is exaggerating or outright fibbing? Or is it your position that some may be able to shoot effectively at longer distances, but there is no legitimate reason they should ever have to do so?
Or maybe both?
Old Fluff: Basically this,
"Or is it your position that some may be able to shoot effectively at longer distances, but there is no legitimate reason they should ever have to do so?"
Even if you can hit a target at that distance I still don't believe its going to be necessary in a defensive situation and at that range if you kill someone rather than trying to escape then I'm pretty sure you're going to prison. I also find it difficult to believe that at 100 yards somebody can hit a pie tin every time but hey exaggeration or not I doubt I'll ever see any evidence one way or another so doesn't even matter.
If anyone here would like to disprove that then go ahead, next time you go to the range feel free to record some of those shots since you're going to be making them anyways there's no reason not to prove me wrong and show off your skills.
All I was trying to say is I'm glad that some people have come along that agree that past 50 yards an engagement is unlikely to happen and that training for double that distance with your sidearm is pointless.
"Or is it your position that some may be able to shoot effectively at longer distances, but there is no legitimate reason they should ever have to do so?"
Even if you can hit a target at that distance I still don't believe its going to be necessary in a defensive situation and at that range if you kill someone rather than trying to escape then I'm pretty sure you're going to prison. I also find it difficult to believe that at 100 yards somebody can hit a pie tin every time but hey exaggeration or not I doubt I'll ever see any evidence one way or another so doesn't even matter.
If anyone here would like to disprove that then go ahead, next time you go to the range feel free to record some of those shots since you're going to be making them anyways there's no reason not to prove me wrong and show off your skills.
All I was trying to say is I'm glad that some people have come along that agree that past 50 yards an engagement is unlikely to happen and that training for double that distance with your sidearm is pointless.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You do understand that not all handgun shooting is in preparation for self defense, correct??? I know that it is the be-all, end-all for some but some of us actually use our handguns nearly every day and some even hunt with them every year. If you can't reliably hit a pie plate at 100yds, then you have no business shooting at big game at 100yds. Then there are those of us who shoot at longer distances just because we want to. Some of us want to be the best handgunner we can be.
If you think 100yds is nigh onimpossible with a handgun, then you must have a stroke whensomeone references Elmer Keith's famous 600yd display on a wounded mule deer. Watch some of Chad's videos if you really wanna have an aneurysm.
http://www.youtube.com/user/texasfivegun?blend=8&ob=5
If you think 100yds is nigh onimpossible with a handgun, then you must have a stroke whensomeone references Elmer Keith's famous 600yd display on a wounded mule deer. Watch some of Chad's videos if you really wanna have an aneurysm.
http://www.youtube.com/user/texasfivegun?blend=8&ob=5
BCRider
Member
Kiln, as Craig says there's a bunch of us that do shoot for sport or hunting just because we prefer handguns over rifles. It's not just about defense all the time. For example I'm looking forward to competing in my club's handgun metallic silhouette matches this summer with my .44Mag Super Blackhawk. A handgun that is about as far as it's possible to get from the sort used for personal defense.
bgtusker
Member
I'll keep it short, but I would say to be competant for handgun self defense is
probably at a minimum 5 yard distance, a group of 3 inches, 15 yards a group of 5 inches
and at a maximum yardage of 25 yards a group of 7 inches. I think for overall general
purposes, shooting for S.D., you would not shoot any farther than 25 yards to minimize
the risk of hitting something like a house, car, person, etc., but I'm no expert.
probably at a minimum 5 yard distance, a group of 3 inches, 15 yards a group of 5 inches
and at a maximum yardage of 25 yards a group of 7 inches. I think for overall general
purposes, shooting for S.D., you would not shoot any farther than 25 yards to minimize
the risk of hitting something like a house, car, person, etc., but I'm no expert.
KodiakBeer
member
I think the 100 yard shooting has become a straw man. Forget the 100 yard shooting for the moment.
In my view, shooting at 7 or even 10 yards is equally useless in defensive training once you've gone past the basic introductory phase. There simply isn't enough range to see the flaws in your technique. Anybody here could take a ten year old child, hand him a .22 and with a few minutes of basic instruction see the child produce a credible group at 7 yards.
So, why would you train to preserve your life at such a range?
Back away from the target until you begin to see your mistakes. Once corrected, back further away and hone your skills at that range. Why waste your valuable time at squirt gun ranges?
In my view, shooting at 7 or even 10 yards is equally useless in defensive training once you've gone past the basic introductory phase. There simply isn't enough range to see the flaws in your technique. Anybody here could take a ten year old child, hand him a .22 and with a few minutes of basic instruction see the child produce a credible group at 7 yards.
So, why would you train to preserve your life at such a range?
Back away from the target until you begin to see your mistakes. Once corrected, back further away and hone your skills at that range. Why waste your valuable time at squirt gun ranges?
after reading all these posts again and again, i have come to the conclusion that to be competent with a handgun (or for any gun) at any range, you have to master the basics: grip, sight picture and trigger control (subject to debate as usual). i'll call these the "core requirements". every situation requires them and confidence is built with them.
oh, and master the supreme requirement - SAFETY. perfect example is m2carbine's daughter. look where her trigger finger is in that last picture. cudos m2carbine. you taught your daughter right. (had to throw that in there to cover my backside)
murf
oh, and master the supreme requirement - SAFETY. perfect example is m2carbine's daughter. look where her trigger finger is in that last picture. cudos m2carbine. you taught your daughter right. (had to throw that in there to cover my backside)
murf
ForumSurfer
Member
Because squirt gun range becomes challenging once you start moving dynamically?
7-15 yards became an entirely new world to me once I started running drills. All of a sudden it was harder to hit a 10 yard target and keep a really, really tight pattern when I was moving.
I think you can learn a whole bunch of things from shooting at any distance...just depends on what kind of shooting you are doing. If you are standing still, shooting a stationary target at a slow fire speed at 7 yards...yeah, you aren't learning much. If you are shooting that same target while moving laterally or backing up, it becomes harder to keep those groups down and trigger control does become a factor even when you are that close.
Speaking of SD training and group sizes...you should be changing your speed or your distances until your groups open up. Then continue practicing until they tighten back up. Wash, rinse and repeat. Train until you fail is what I've always been advised. If you never fail and you shoot 1" groups from any distance while running and eating a sandwich...you must be from the internets.
Training for SD aside...as long as you're having a good time, that is what counts.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Exactly!
I wonder if some folks convince themselves that shooting at 7-10yds is all they need because they know that shooting any further reveals their own shortcomings as a shooter and they are either not willing to accept the fact that they need improvement or are simply unwilling to do the work. Or both.
KodiakBeer
member
And moving dynamically at 15 or 20 yards isn't? Any drill can be done at any range and the further out you do them, the more skills you acquire. It's like the point I made about double-tapping earlier - yeah, you have to start close to learn the technique. If you started doubling at 25 yards, you'd learn nothing because your second shot probably wouldn't hit the paper. So begin at close range and then gradually move back until you can do it at any reasonable distance.
ForumSurfer
Member
And then do what? Quit when you need a scope to see your target?
I agree, practice at 15-20. I also say practice at 7...practice at 100...I think all ranges are beneficial.
I grew up shooting at distance. The first time I shot at 7 yards was during qualifications for my concealed permit. I was confused because I had never shot anything that close. Nor had I shot at a public range, only on private land among friends. I hesitated for a split second because I was honestly unsure where to aim. I wanted my permit simply to avoid getting local purchase permits required in my state. It wasn't until later that I actually started studying defensive shooting techniques and actually carrying. If you may actually shoot someone at 7 yards, you need to practice that, too.
My main point: I'm simply trying to point out that 7 yard training isn't useless, it has it's merits. I personally think it seems like a bad idea to rule out any distance inside of 100 or 50 yards. No one masters anything and retains those skills without some practice IMO.
M2 Carbine
member
Thanks but she is my friend's daughter, although I taught her and her brothers to shoot.
sm
member
I will reply to some PM's publicly.
I was raised to get with a firearm, no matter if it is a handgun, rifle or shotgun, until it is like a body part.
Getting used to carrying it, being able to access it, and get quick effective hits. The reality is, one might have to use whatever platform they have at the time to deal with what needs dealing with, from "right here" to "out yonder at bit".
Some of my Mentors & Elders were interesting folks, and had been there and done that.
Some, while quite proficient with say BHP's, 1911's, Single Action Army's, Medium frame/Large frame revolvers, carried what today folks talk down on the Internet.
Some carried Colt Woodsman's, or Ruger MKI's. Others carried small semi auto's such as Beretta Jetfire's, or Bobcat 21A's in 25ACP and .22 long rifle.
Yes, .22
For fun, they would light a cigarette, and shoot off the lit end, with the guns mentioned. My grandma could do this, and she did what other Mentor's and Elders did: ask me which eye of a squirrel, feral cat, or similar critter, and I would say which eye, and they would shoot that critter, in that eye!
In the real world, these folks have "stopped threats" and they did so with handguns, and pocket knives.
One had used a small caliber, small semi auto (like a Beretta 21A) to shoot fifty yards or so, to keep the "threat" at bay, while others evaded to safety.
Foreign country, some "going on's going on" and at checkpoints, he was always careful and took prudent steps to not arouse suspicion, or else he was a goner if found out who, what, he was.
It was the practice, to "dead drop" information, and tools such as the small caliber, small semi auto. He always got "by" checkpoints with his small penknife.
Another stopped a rapist with a snub nose out to around 50 yards. Besides being a felony, "it was flat wrong" he shared. All he had was his snub nose, but he could flat shoot -period! Now he is sharing this with me, as we shot steels from 15, 25, 35, 50, 75 and even 100 yards.
He stopped a rapist, the teenager whom had Polio, and on crutches, with leg braces, was not "touched". (she remained pure).
This is why I am the way I am. I now have the ability to step out back and shoot, and finally have a little fun, after some really really tough years.
Lee Lapin shared recently, when I shared how I still miss my Mentors & Elders...
"Steve, as long as you carry on with what they shared, and pass forward as passed to you, they will still be around, for a long, long time".
No. I am not ashamed to admit I am not as competent as I once was. I am older, and my eyes are not the "Chuck Yeager" eyes I had for so long. I accepted a long time ago, I will never be as competent as I would like to be...
...But darn it! I am going to have fun, continue what passed to me by Mentors & Elders, and leave some things to others when I die.
I was raised to get with a firearm, no matter if it is a handgun, rifle or shotgun, until it is like a body part.
Getting used to carrying it, being able to access it, and get quick effective hits. The reality is, one might have to use whatever platform they have at the time to deal with what needs dealing with, from "right here" to "out yonder at bit".
Some of my Mentors & Elders were interesting folks, and had been there and done that.
Some, while quite proficient with say BHP's, 1911's, Single Action Army's, Medium frame/Large frame revolvers, carried what today folks talk down on the Internet.
Some carried Colt Woodsman's, or Ruger MKI's. Others carried small semi auto's such as Beretta Jetfire's, or Bobcat 21A's in 25ACP and .22 long rifle.
Yes, .22
For fun, they would light a cigarette, and shoot off the lit end, with the guns mentioned. My grandma could do this, and she did what other Mentor's and Elders did: ask me which eye of a squirrel, feral cat, or similar critter, and I would say which eye, and they would shoot that critter, in that eye!
In the real world, these folks have "stopped threats" and they did so with handguns, and pocket knives.
One had used a small caliber, small semi auto (like a Beretta 21A) to shoot fifty yards or so, to keep the "threat" at bay, while others evaded to safety.
Foreign country, some "going on's going on" and at checkpoints, he was always careful and took prudent steps to not arouse suspicion, or else he was a goner if found out who, what, he was.
It was the practice, to "dead drop" information, and tools such as the small caliber, small semi auto. He always got "by" checkpoints with his small penknife.
Another stopped a rapist with a snub nose out to around 50 yards. Besides being a felony, "it was flat wrong" he shared. All he had was his snub nose, but he could flat shoot -period! Now he is sharing this with me, as we shot steels from 15, 25, 35, 50, 75 and even 100 yards.
He stopped a rapist, the teenager whom had Polio, and on crutches, with leg braces, was not "touched". (she remained pure).
This is why I am the way I am. I now have the ability to step out back and shoot, and finally have a little fun, after some really really tough years.
Lee Lapin shared recently, when I shared how I still miss my Mentors & Elders...
"Steve, as long as you carry on with what they shared, and pass forward as passed to you, they will still be around, for a long, long time".
No. I am not ashamed to admit I am not as competent as I once was. I am older, and my eyes are not the "Chuck Yeager" eyes I had for so long. I accepted a long time ago, I will never be as competent as I would like to be...
...But darn it! I am going to have fun, continue what passed to me by Mentors & Elders, and leave some things to others when I die.
easyg
Member
But can you take a ten year old child, give him a 9mm para handgun, have him draw while moving toward cover, putting all of his shots within a human head size target, at seven yards, shooting rapid fire, and clearing a stoppage, all while under stress?
Most of the long distance handgun shooters that I have seen take their time when sighting the target and shooting, as if a bad guy will just stand there and wait to be shot.
Most long distance handgun shooters that I know can't hit crap when placed under physical pressure or time contraints.
BCRider
Member
easyG said:
And that same thing applies to folks that practice standing in a stall at a typical handgun range on stationary targets.
The idea is to get out and practice in scenarios that as closely as practical mimic the factors found in defensive situations. I know this sounds like a broken record but for many folks this would suggest getting involved in shooting in IDPA. It's still far from perfect but it offers up a changing set of factors and tosses movement and use of cover into the situation that is missing in most folks' pratice time at the typical range.
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