RCBS

[mikemyers]

First, a photo of what I'm asking about:



I used to reload a lifetime ago, and still have all my old gear. I just got back from India, and am helping a relative get set up for reloading. He wants Dillon, but I've always used, and liked, RCBS. During all these discussions, I've been thinking of setting a reloading bench for myself.

In a long discussion with the tech people at RCBS, I learned about the new catalog item posted up above. It's not available yet, but should be in a couple of months or so. It seems to have corrected all the "issues" with their previous model:

People complain that the previous design spilled powder. I was told this was mostly user error, as people indexed too quickly. The new design resolves that issue. People also complained about the method of inserting primers, using the long strips. The new design uses a tube.


Anyway, on to my question. I'm used to the RCBS Big Max, which I used back in the 1980's. I've forgotten a lot, but back then I reloaded for ten years or so, before packing away my gear. The tech person at RCBS thought this would be a good choice for me. It's not as "fast" as the Dillon, but it's easier and quicker to change to a different caliber. I suppose I can simply set up my Big Max once again, and plan to do that anyway, but the more I look over this new progressive press, having watched a zillion videos on YouTube while I was in India, the more I like it.

Any thoughts about this new progressive press? (If you go to the RCBS website, you will find a link to the new catalog at the bottom of the page. There's also a 7-station press listed, which the 5-station can be converted to if desired, but I doubt I would ever need or want to do that.

 

[hAkron]

Wow. This is pretty interesting. It looks a lot like the Hornady LnL AP. It's a confusing move for RCBS to make too. The APS strip priming system seemed like a big advantage in their Pro-2000.

 

[hAkron]

Looks like there is a 7 station one as well. You can convert the 5 to a 7 for $300.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/439374_New_RCBS_Progressives__Pro_Chucker_7_stations_.html

They are pretty expensive though. For what you are paying for that press, you are getting close to the price of a Dillon 650 with a case feeder, a strong mount, and an ergonomic handle.

 

[mikemyers]

I asked Larry (support tech at RCBS) a lot of questions, including the differences between RCBS and Dillon. Larry thinks the Dillon will probably produce more parts per hour, but the RCBS is faster and simpler when changing to a different caliber (assuming you buy the right parts). I don't need the 'speed' of either of these two; realistically speaking, my "Big Max" is probably all I really need.

The prices on RCBS are all "list prices". Larry gave me an idea of what things will probably go for on Midway USA (where I'll probably order it, if in fact I buy one), and the difference of one over another is not enough to affect my decision.

I like the fact that RCBS is made of iron. While I have only seen the photo, if it attaches to the workbench like the Big Max, no additional supports were needed. It got bolted into place, and didn't budge for the ten years that I was using it. Very solid.

As to the number of stations, I imagine that might be very handy for some people, but I doubt I'll need anything more than the basic setup. On the other hand, I was just reading how it's better to deprime the cases before cleaning them; need to ask people here if that's really important. I was also reading how you can get a device that goes in one station, and checks the amount of powder that has been loaded. I can't see any reason not to get that eventually, but I like the idea of starting off with just the basic set-up, re-learning everything, and maybe a year later, making improvements.

(Check the catalog page - it shows the 5 and 7 station presses, and the conversion kit.)

 

[mikemyers]

I should add that if I actually do buy this press, for a long time i intend to do just one bullet at a time. When I first started reloading, I was just "following directions". I never had a problem, but I don't think I learned reloading very well. By doing one shell at a time, and checking things thoroughly, I think I'll learn and understand what the press is doing in much more detail.

I don't remember that I ever measured the lengths of the cases - I just threw out any that looked "defective" in any way. I never measured the lengths of the completed bullets - I suppose I should be checking this every so often. Back then, I never bought a case cleaner. It didn't seem essential - I thought it was just for looks. I need to learn more about those too. Lastly, my old scale was the Ohaus/RCBS 10 10 scale. Nowadays, I keep reading about digital. I'm not convinced that there is any advantage of going digital, other than to save time. ....one more thing to read about on this forum.

 

[GW Staar]

I've been loading on an RCBS Pro 2000 for about 6 years now, and I can tell you that they are wonderful progressives, the the APS (strip) primer system is the safest and fastest way to prime there is. The only problem was that RCBS did a poor job of marketing, and didn't convince many dyed in the wool tube loaders to try them.

I don't know of anyone who learned the APS system that is happy about RCBS going back to the old dangerous "pipe bombs". But it is what it is. And in spite of two steps forward and one step back, the new presses are really really nice.......especially the smoother auto-advance mechanism. The old system had a tendancy to toss a few grains of power out of a short pistol case while indexing too fast....but so does Dillon and Hornady presses.....there are work-arounds to each. (RCBS provided us Pro 2000 users with a lighter spring that worked quite well.)

BTW, the YouTube videos that demo how fast they could crank a progressive, were misleading. No press under $2000 are designed to load good symmetrical cartridges, with minimum run-out while cranking at speeds that won't allow the cases to self center and align with dies and bullets.

We've been discussing the new RCBS presses in pictured detail in another thread here on page 1. Do join us if you like!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=771686

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks, GW Staar. I noticed that post several days back, but the discussion seemed to be about the 7 station press, case feeders, bullet feeders, and a lot of things to make the press produce the maximum number of rounds per hour. I see there's a lot more information there now - will read everything later on this morning.

I'm not really into much of that. I can't see myself ever needing to go beyond 5 stations, and have no need whatever to make things more complicated with any automated feeders. From what Larry at RCBS told me, my plan is to do one bullet at a time, until I feel I know "enough" about the machine. I'm not really in any hurry nowadays - being retired means I can have all the time I want for whatever I want to do.

I only plan on using the press for 38, 44, and 45, and will pick just ONE of those to use until I feel completely comfortable with it. Then I'll buy the additional plates, so I can easily switch from one caliber to another.

I helped my relative purchase the Dillon 550 yesterday, and will be helping him get it set up in a week or so.... gee, the almost blind leading the blind.... I gave him the same advice - do one bullet at a time until he learns everything. I decided I still prefer the RCBS for myself. My discussions with Larry at RCBS confirmed what I already thought I knew.

Interesting to read your thoughts on the primer feeder. In reading lots of reviews, the strip feed system for primers seemed to be one of the major complaints. (The other was spilling powder, but Larry explained that this was mostly user error, not a problem with the press.) That matches your comment up above about people trying to index too quickly.

I called Midway USA to see if I could get myself onto a waiting list, or place the order ahead of time, but since the press isn't even in their computer system yet, none of that is possible.

(I could probably do everything I need to do, by setting up my "Big Max" again. I might do that this afternoon. I never knew until yesterday that the "Big Max" is different from the "Rock Chucker", but apparently they're quite different. I was even more amazed to read that the Big Max is now selling for $350 or so? I have no idea if that is because it's that good, or that rare....)

 

[GW Staar]

Interesting to read your thoughts on the primer feeder. In reading lots of reviews, the strip feed system for primers seemed to be one of the major complaints.

Yes and the amazing thing is such became a popular sport, "bashing RCBS 's advanced primer system" based on hearsay from those who never experienced opening a box of Pre-stripped CCI's and loading them directly, safely, effortlessly, with nary a primer to ever touch nor load into a tube. Not to mention the ability to store a huge cache of them safely, preloaded, ready to stuff into the progressive.

Peter Eick and I have influenced quite a number of guys to try it. I have yet to hear of one of them who hated the primer system and wanted to buy RCBS's conversion kit to use pipe bombs, or dump the press for another color.


I've heard of the Big Max, but never had the privilege of seeing or using one in person. Beefy with a capital B if I remember right. Probably a great press, worth a lot for both reasons.

 

[mikemyers]

Not sure what to say - the reports I read were from people who actually had trouble using the strip feed system, but for all I know, they might have been doing something wrong. I'd still be willing to give it a try, if that is going to be an option. Too early to be concerned about that though, as the new press isn't even for sale yet.

Probably pretty silly to make any decision yet, but having watched all the Dillon videos, and several videos about the RCBS multi-stage presses, I came away thinking RCBS was the best for me. Then I spent half an hour or so on the phone with Larry from RCBS, which reinforced what I was already thinking. Yesterday I spent over half an hour on a three-way phone call with the support person at Dillon, getting answers, and helping my relative place his order - now done. I think the Dillon is the better choice for him, as he's never done any reloading yet, and he has a nearby neighbor who also has the 550 Dillon, so he's got local support.

Depending on when the "Pro Chucker 5 Progressive Reloading Press" becomes available, along with my travel schedule, I expect to be ordering it in late April, or early July. I figure the more I (re)learn about reloading before then, the better, so as of early afternoon today, my "Big Max" is now cleaned up and mounted. Maybe by early next week I'll be ready to do some more reloading.

To be continued....

 

[jmorris]

Yes and the amazing thing is such became a popular sport, "bashing RCBS 's advanced primer system" based on hearsay from those who never experienced opening a box of Pre-stripped CCI's and loading them directly, safely, effortlessly, with nary a primer to ever touch nor load into a tube. Not to mention the ability to store a huge cache of them safely, preloaded, ready to stuff into the progressive.

You have always had great things to say about the APS system, any idea why they ditched it?

 

[GW Staar]

Pretty obvious, They want more of the market. Having learned by experience that a proprietary system not shared with the competition can backfire. I understand that Richard Lee voiced his disappointment in his book that it wasn't shared industry wide. He suggested it was in the interest of public safety.

RCBS engineers still think it is superior system (at least according to the one I know and talked to recently), but it was a bridge too far when marketing decided to hoard the technology. I'm betting CCI wasn't too happy with that policy either.

This time they are attempting to reach into the center of the market with products that are hopefully improvements on traditional technology. Not much to patent on these. More evolutionary, but unfortunately less safe and IMO a bigger hassle for the user. (I used tubes for years)

One good thing they learned on the Pro 2000 was the advantage of upgrade kits! They offered an Auto-Advance kit for manual press to make it identical to the Auto-Advance Pro 2000. When these make it to the dealers, a buyer of the new Pro Chucker 5 can save his money up, or advance in the hobby in a year or two and get the 7 station Press with a $300 upgrade kit. Nobody else offers that sort of thing.

As for niche the Pro Chucker 7 is not a 1050 to be sure, but it has advantages over it and the 650 for some reloaders, who will be attracted by the feature set. (if they don't screw it up by insisting on the mandatory Uniflow on people who just want to add a caliber). I already have 3 Uniflows, so I emailed my displeasure to RCBS.....I hope everyone else will too.

 

[higgite]

RCBS engineers still think it is superior system (at least according to the one I know and talked to recently), but it was a bridge too far when marketing decided to hoard the technology. I'm betting CCI wasn't too happy with that policy either.

Yeah, I fear CCI may ditch the strips without the potential for a growing market. Hopefully the existing market is enough that they continue selling the pre-loaded strips. As you know, loading the strips yourself is no biggie, but it is more convenient to just open a box of pre-loads.

 

[mikemyers]

GW Staar, if you have an "in" with RCBS, maybe you can suggest that they offer a choice of both methods?

I don't know nearly enough to be a "typical buyer", but before you posted what you just did, knowing only what I read in reviews, I thought going back to the 'tubes' was a benefit. After what you've said here, if offered the choice, I would get the strip feeder.

If people have a choice, it's a win/win situation for everyone.

For what it's worth, a lifetime ago, I used to use the RCBS "Standard Priming Tool". I also had, but never set up, the RCBS "Automatic Priming Tool". I spent a couple of hours last night, trying to figure out how the automatic device worked. I finally understood it (I think).

For anyone using one of the automatic priming tools, I did find what might be a very handy video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deH26I5aZ_4
Now I also know why I have several tubes in the box of spare-parts-that-I-have-no-idea-what-they-do.

 

[GW Staar]

I have a single R. D. engineer that I'm friendly with, whom I email once in a while and he emails me back. We see eye to eye on many things reloading, but I have no other in, and he is only one voice in a large corporation who makes decisions way above his dept. He takes orders more than he gives them.

Come to think of it, RCBS may have had less to do with the "hoarding" of the APS technology, than ATK did! Or CCI for that matter. They are both owned by ATK. and and both shared a part of APS.

As for APS's final demise, keep in mind that RCBS still has 2 APS primer systems outside of the Pro 2000. The hand primer, the bench primer, Also I noticed in the new 2015 RCBS catalog that the Pro 2000 presses are still there. When they will all be discontinued is anyone's guess.

One thing I have noticed with RCBS, and that is they listen to customers when there are "numbers". That's why I say email their service dept. with any concerns. After all that's why we have a 7-stations press........and tube bullet feeders. Many of us have rocked the boat.

 

[higgite]

Good point. I also have a strip fed bench primer that I use for rifle loads. I've never been the letter writing type, but I see an email from a concerned customer to RCBS in my future.

As an aside, I would like to have a 7 station progressive, or even 6 stations, but I'm among those unwilling to give up my APS strips unless something better comes along.