RCBS Pro 2000

[cfullgraf]

So, anything attached at station #3 remeins in place as someone changes the die plate?

Right

That is how/why the powder drop components remain in place if the die plate is removed?

If so, one more thing I knew nothing about...

Assuming the powder measure is installed in station 3.

jmorris' link should answer lots of questions about the Pro2000. It is the Pro2000 set up and operating instructions.

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks; I read most of the set-up instructions. Need to print it out (or wait until I get it on Tuesday) and go through it more carefully.

Doing it as described, I still don't see how I can use a typical 4-die set, and the lockout die, and the powder station. ....unless both the expander and the powder drop are both done at station #2.


I didn't know about that base plate. For those of you who've already used one, is it worth installing, rather than bolting the press to the tabletop?

 

[edfardos]

Rcbs200 here. Manual index for me. If you get an auto index make sure you can disable it when and if you want to use it as a single stage for hand thrown sniper rounds. Bolt directly to 1" MDF workbench.

I crimp and seat in separate stations if and only if I'm using straight wall lead ammo (45acp). If the bullet is copper or has a cannelure you can seat and crimp in one station. I never used a lockout die. I have special led lighting to help me inspect the powder level in every case -- no exceptions. Double charges are obvious, as are squibs.

This press pumped out 25,000 rounds thus far. No problems. It is waaay overbuilt, dreadfully heavy, and has very few moving parts on account of the APS primer strip system.

 

[mikemyers]

.....If you get an auto index make sure you can disable it when and if you want to use it as a single stage for hand thrown sniper rounds. Bolt directly to 1" MDF workbench.......I crimp and seat in separate stations if and only if I'm using straight wall lead ammo (45acp). ........I never used a lockout die.......

Thanks for the photo - that answered a LOT of questions i was still trying to figure out. One photo is worth....

I bought manual - I have no plans right now to go automatic.

Dies - I want to do 45ACP, which is why I'm asking about the way to set it up. I want to use the lockout die, even if it means doing the crimping in my old RCBS Big Max press.

By the way - nice, the way you mounted the light!


---------------------------------------------------
Added later - I just watched this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V1yh6QrdcI
Is the lockout die essential for 45 ACP, or is what this fellow is doing all that's needed?

 

[cfullgraf]

Doing it as described, I still don't see how I can use a typical 4-die set, and the lockout die, and the powder station. ....unless both the expander and the powder drop are both done at station #2.

Correct, regardless of the press, you need three stations after the powder drop station if you want a powder check system and seat and crimp in separate stations.

So, in the case of Pro2000, the powder drop would need to be in station 2.

Same for the Dillon 650, the RCBS ProChucker 5 and the Hornady L-N-L.

To have a powder check system and seat and crimp in separate dies on the Dillon 550, you would have to have the powder measure installed in station 1.

The new RCBS ProChucker 7 has seven stations, but you lose the APS strip priming system.

Then there is the Dillon 1050...

I have not used the RCBS base plate, but it might be handy if you need to swap out gear for different tasks. I think it is only drilled and tapped for RCBS gear though. I do not know how adaptable it i to other manufacturers but it could be modified, I am sure.

 

[mikemyers]

I called RCBS this morning. Among other things, they told me that the Pro2000 will be supported for a long time to come, and that they are still working at improving the newer model (which I don't want, as I don't want a primer tube).

First suggestion was to mount one of these at the Powder Station:
"RCBS Powder Expanders-Pro 2000 .45 ACP 88889" ....and at the same time, #88885 for 38 and #88888 for 44.

They also suggested I buy #18915. "RCBS Carbide 3-Die Set with Taper Crimp 45 ACP, 45 GAP", which is the complete set. It's more cost effective than buying the dies individually.

I'm not sure what I'll do yet, but I'll have the new press delivered tomorrow.

 

[edfardos]

You probably know this already, but be sure to get a #3 shell plate to go with your 45acp carbide die set.

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks, yes, got it, and also the shell plate for 38/357. I don't shoot any of the other calibers enough to justify buying another shell plate right now.

 

[GW Staar]

Doing it as described, I still don't see how I can use a typical 4-die set, and the lockout die, and the powder station. ....unless both the expander and the powder drop are both done at station #2.

I for one think a separate crimper makes better ammo.....on the other hand I think checking powder level is the most important step in reloading on any press. A seating die set to crimp, is crimping before it's completely seated!

There is another way where you don't need to use up a station for powder level checking. You look at powder level much like you do on a single station press. Not so easy on a Pro 2000 without help.

The way the Pro 2000 is set up, "looking" is hard...being that the back of the shellplate is where you need to be able to look. I used mirrors for a while....and that worked, but a gentleman on another forum had a better idea and I copied him. He used a tiny video camera and monitor.

I posted a thread in AR15.com with a description and a video of my rendition. The video I supplied in the thread is just acceptable....but it makes the point.

BUT.....I use auto-advance kit on my Pro 2000 ..... and where I mounted the camera, the manual rotation fingers on the manual press get in the way of the camera. You'd have to find another location or get an auto-advance kit.

I originally bought the manual advance press and the auto-advance kit at the same time......I used my manual advance for a few days and added the kit. I never had any remorse for that change, never wanted to change it back. I load pistol and rifle both on my Pro 2K.

Using the video powder checker, I then can use the powder-through expanders and powder measure in station two for pistol calibers. Works really well. Hornady Bullet Feeder in #3, and seater in #4, and a taper crimper in #5. The best part about the video is it's large and in my face so I don't ever forget to watch.

Now, I noticed you weren't interested in a bullet feeder.....but for me it was a safety improvement. Maybe I'm slower than most, but I had a hard time remembering to do all the steps every time. Advance the shellholder, Feed a case, Feed a bullet, crank the handle, watch powder case level, watch the powder hopper level, watch the primer supply....repeat.

Two less steps to worry about with an auto-advance and a bullet feeder.

 

[higgite]

I for one think a separate crimper makes better ammo.....on the other hand I think checking powder level is the most important step in reloading on any press. A seating die set to crimp, is crimping before it's completely seated!

GWS, I don't question that statement, but does it really matter if you are taper crimping, say, just taking the bell out of a 9mm case mouth? I can see where it would be a concern for roll crimping, but for taper crimping, unless you're over crimping, I don't see a concern. Maybe for cast lead bullets? What do you think? Am I overlooking something?

Back on topic, I use the 5 stations on my Pro 2000 as follows for pistol ammo:
1 - sizing/decapping die
2 - prime/powder charge
3 - RCBS lockout die
4 - bullet feeder (MBF dropper mated to Lee bouquet of tubes gizmo with a homemade adapter)
5 - seating/taper crimp die

 

[GW Staar]

GWS, I don't question that statement, but does it really matter if you are taper crimping, say, just taking the bell out of a 9mm case mouth? I can see where it would be a concern for roll crimping, but for taper crimping, unless you're over crimping, I don't see a concern. Maybe for cast lead bullets? What do you think? Am I overlooking something?

The effect of roll crimping in a cannelure before full seat is obvious....a bulge can occur. But with taper crimping, consider what you are taught when trying to pull bullets.
Seat a little deeper first to make them easier to pull. What I worry about on a short semi-auto is a bullet moving deeper in the case and increasing pressure.

 

[higgite]

Good point. Thanks.

 

[jmorris]

I for one think a separate crimper makes better ammo.....on the other hand I think checking powder level is the most important step in reloading on any press. A seating die set to crimp, is crimping before it's completely seated!

I agree 100% with both statements.

 

[mikemyers]

Having read all the above, watched videos, and spoken to two technicians at RCBS, I'm probably going to do the "best" of what all of you seem to agree on. New carbide dies, either a 4-die set for 45ACP or the 3-die set, the powder funnel and expand at the #2 station, followed by the lockout die, then the rest of the dies.

IF the idea of a 3-die set is what I go for, when the bullets come off the press, they're done.

IF the idea of a 4-die set is what I go for, then the final crimping will be done afterwards, on my single-station press.

This video (and the one that follows automatically) seem to be a good guide to what I'll be doing - but one way or another I want the lockout die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCOjenjFKmI


So, the bottom line for now, is for 45 ACP, how much of a difference does it make as to when/where I crimp?

 

[GW Staar]

Having read all the above, watched videos, and spoken to two technicians at RCBS, I'm probably going to do the "best" of what all of you seem to agree on. New carbide dies, either a 4-die set for 45ACP or the 3-die set, the powder funnel and expand at the #2 station, followed by the lockout die, then the rest of the dies.

IF the idea of a 3-die set is what I go for, when the bullets come off the press, they're done.

IF the idea of a 4-die set is what I go for, then the final crimping will be done afterwards, on my single-station press.

This video (and the one that follows automatically) seem to be a good guide to what I'll be doing - but one way or another I want the lockout die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCOjenjFKmI

So, the bottom line for now, is for 45 ACP, how much of a difference does it make as to when/where I crimp?

Then:
1 deprime and size
2 expand (bell) and charge (your Uniflow goes here if you use the powder thru expanders RCBS suggested to you. They are trial and error adjustment, once.)
3 lock-out
4 seat
5 crimp

Absolutely no reason to feel you need to charge on 3 now that RCBS finally created their powder-thru expanders.....those little jewels are only a couple of years old......we used to have to "borrow" Hornady parts for the Uniflow to do that. Stationary three is a fine permanent place to rest your lockout die.

Absolutely no reason either, if you use powder-thru expanders under the Uniflow at station 2, to use the #2 expander die for anything. (in either the 3 or 4 die set).

If you only bought a 3 die set......just buy an additional taper crimp die.

Does it make a difference when to crimp? Yes......after you seat. Where you crimp? No.....if you want to crimp on another press you can, but no reason to unless you add a bullet feeder in addition to your for sure lock-out die.

 

[mikemyers]

Then:
1 deprime and size
2 expand (bell) and charge (your Uniflow goes here if you use the powder thru expanders RCBS suggested to you. They are trial and error adjustment, once.) (also, insert the primer???)
3 lock-out
4 seat
5 crimp

.......

I think that is good. I already have a 4-die ACP set from RCBS. All I need to buy now is a new carbide resizer/de-primer die, the "powder funnel / expand" die, and the lockout die. I already have the RCBS 4-die set which includes the seating die and the crimping die.

You didn't mention it, but I'm pretty sure station #2 will also install the new primer. I added that, in parenthesis, up above. Is that correct?


Maybe you answered my question of why the videos about the Pro 2000 show the powder being added at station #3 - apparently the parts needed to allow this weren't available back when the press came out.



One more question - assuming the primer is being pressed in place in station #2, what happens if you move the loading handle back, to press in a primer, when there is no sell located in station #2? Does the machine push the primer into the air, and it falls somewhere, or does it realize the station is empty, and not do anything, or ???

 

[GW Staar]

You didn't mention it, but I'm pretty sure station #2 will also install the new primer. I added that, in parenthesis, up above. Is that correct?

Yes, correct. Also the Pro 2000 has a primer seating depth adjustment so you can seat primers the same depth every time as long as you uniform your primer pockets.

As for using the P.M in 3, the original advantage, especially reloading rifle, is that it is stationary and it uses a the very quick to adjust mic metering screw. That and the fact that changing powder is accomplished simply by unscrewing the thumb screw on the linkage, unhooking the spring, and lifting the hopper off the base (no need to remove the base) and dump the powder back in the can with a funnel.

For rifle I like to use a Gold Medal Seater and I don't usually crimp at all. The Gold Medal Seater allows you the very speedy "drop the bullet in the mouth" above the die plate....no more smashed fingers.

So then previously tumbled, sized, deprimed (on my Rock Chucker), trimmed & chamfered & otherwise prepped (swaged, reamed, uniformed, flash hole reamed if needed) off press. Once ready to load, stations:
2. Brass is primed
3. powder charge
4. powder cop, if you want
5. Bullet is seated.

Back to loading for pistol:
You can order just the powder drop die and linkage clamp & screw, directly from RCBS. Therefore you can populate your die plates with just the lower P.M. parts and leave them adjusted.

That way, when you get around to doing another caliber, all you have to do is unhook the upper linkage/Uniflow (as you do when you want to empty the hopper and drop it into another mounted die plate....reset the mic to your logged setting and go.

One more question - assuming the primer is being pressed in place in station #2, what happens if you move the loading handle back, to press in a primer, when there is no sell located in station #2? Does the machine push the primer into the air, and it falls somewhere, or does it realize the station is empty, and not do anything, or ???

The Hornady has such a feature that checks for an empty but the Pro 2000 doesn't. That slightly annoyed me so I figured out a way to stop the primer from being lifted....another AR15 thread for you to read. It's pretty darn simple, but others just get used to it and keep a tool handy to push primers back down.

Here's the facts. When the handle is at rest position the primer is not pushed....but as soon as you push the handle toward the bench from there (even a tiny bit into the priming push) the primer will raise. That raised primer can keep the shell plate from rotating....you've probably already found that out. If that happens just push the primer back down with an Allen wrench or something that size. Then it rotates as normal. It's only a minor annoyance that you learn not to do. Yes you may lift a primer clear off and drop it.....but that happens only once. You learn fast.

But I wanted a way to take primer advance and primer rise off line for when a need to trouble-shoot comes along. (usually from a bad case that slipped through inspection or powder bridging or whatever.) So I created a couple of simple mods. BTW, another minor gotcha is to make sure the primer in your APS strips are flush or recessed on the anvil side. They can hang if they aren't. Before a mod to my strip loader I used a wallpaper roller to roll the bottoms flat....no problems after that.

There are several other tacked threads for the Pro 2000 I did, that you might be interested in reading....they are all listed Here. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/258520_Read__First___useful_threads_for_answering_questions.html&page=1#i2526501

Your press is as simple as they come.....fewer moving parts, safe, and fast. Once calibrated it never needs it again. Have fun on the learning curve, relax and be patient the first couple of attempts. If you don't want to load .45's without primers try placing only 25 bullets at a time in the bullet tray until you get used to adding strips!

I demoed my press the first time to a friend the day after I set it up. I loaded a quick impressive 50........no I didn't think to add a strip.....my friend picked of one of the last loads and noticed Unique trickling out the bottom......sheesh....embarrassing.....but we were even....his demo of his brand new Dillon 650 the week before, had both of us picking up primers and powder spilled all over the floor.

The moral? Don't demo your press until you learn your press and you're comfortable with it's operation! (sorry for the book...trying to save you some grief.)

 

[mikemyers]

Hmmm, so much information!!!

I'm leaving on a trip next week, and won't get to set up the press until February. I'm going to create a computer file with all your suggestions, and keep it on a memory stick with my reloading dies.

As for me, I'm back to being a bit confused as to what I will do, as I prefer the powder measure to be attached to frame, rather than the die plate, for the reasons you just posted. I also want to have the lockout die. Most likely I'll just get the 3-die 45 ACP set as the technician at RCBS suggested.

 

[jmorris]

The Hornady has such a feature that checks for an empty

The LNL, SD, 550 and 1050 have a reciprocating primer system that drops a primer into a pocket/cup and an anvil pushes them up out of the pocket and into the case.

If there is no case for the primer to seat into it is just lowered back into the pocket/cup. If there is already a primer in the cup a new one cannot drop from the feed tube into the pocket.

 

[GW Staar]

Wow! Long trip! I just got back from my longest vacation in 20 years.....a whole 10 days! We went to Branson, Missouri. Interesting place.....and other destinations in the east....saw Jonathan Browning's Gun shop in Nauvoo Ill. (Father of John Moses Browning). Amazing they could build quality guns with such backward tools. (a wooden hand cranked rifling machine for one)

Anyhow we'll take up this discussion again in February if I'm still alive.

Jmorris is correct. But there's always a trade off. The more moving parts the more .... Murphys. I think that's why so many folks, using other progressives, use a manual hand primer. The Dillon 1050 also has a primer depth adjustment....I don't think the others he mentioned do....and that might also be a factor.

 

[higgite]

One more question - assuming the primer is being pressed in place in station #2, what happens if you move the loading handle back, to press in a primer, when there is no sell located in station #2? Does the machine push the primer into the air, and it falls somewhere, or does it realize the station is empty, and not do anything, or ???

The Hornady has such a feature that checks for an empty but the Pro 2000 doesn't. That slightly annoyed me so I figured out a way to stop the primer from being lifted....another AR15 thread for you to read. It's pretty darn simple, but others just get used to it and keep a tool handy to push primers back down.

Here's the facts. When the handle is at rest position the primer is not pushed....but as soon as you push the handle toward the bench from there (even a tiny bit into the priming push) the primer will raise. That raised primer can keep the shell plate from rotating....you've probably already found that out. If that happens just push the primer back down with an Allen wrench or something that size. Then it rotates as normal. It's only a minor annoyance that you learn not to do. Yes you may lift a primer clear off and drop it.....but that happens only once. You learn fast.

GWS,

Your press must be older than mine or I’m misreading your post or something. The APS primer strip advance on mine doesn’t operate like yours. When I push forward on the press operating handle, the primer rod does push a primer up out of the strip and into the primer pocket if there is a case in station 2, as you described. When I cycle the handle (ram up and down, etc.), it advances the shell plate and advances the APS strip one notch, positioning a new primer for the next case, as yours does. Also like yours, if there is no case in station 2 and I push the handle forward, the primer rod pushes the new primer up as if there was a case there. When I pull the handle to cycle the press again, the primer rod withdraws and the primer is lowered to where it just rests on the hole in the APS strip that it came out of, again like yours, I think. But, unlike yours, on my press the APS strip does not advance if the primer was not used and the shell plate rotates over the top of the primer without touching it. It will continue to do that until a case shows up in station 2, at which time it primes the case and the APS strip advances one notch again. I routinely, at the end of a loading session, cycle the press until the last finished round is ejected. The same primer just keeps popping up and down with each cycle of the press if I push the handle all the way forward.

Now, at the end of a loading session, before I remove a partially used APS strip from the press, I do have to press the primer back into it’s hole in the strip, same as you described, or it will jam up the works big time. (Don’t ask me how I know that.) I have a "custom made" 2” length of wood dowel rod dedicated to that task that resides full time in the bullet tray. (Patent pending. )

I wonder why our presses operate differently? Mine is an auto advance model, 4 years old, purchased in 2011.

 

[mikemyers]

......There are several other tacked threads for the Pro 2000 I did, that you might be interested in reading....they are all listed Here. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/258520_Read__First___useful_threads_for_answering_questions.html&page=1#i2526501

I did find this one:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/395954_Improving_RCBS_s_APS_Strip_Loader__Video_Demo_at_the_End.html

I'm searching for the others (but the font on that page being so small, and the red over gray, makes it very hard to read on my PC.

 

[mikemyers]

......Now, at the end of a loading session, before I remove a partially used APS strip from the press, I do have to press the primer back into it’s hole in the strip, same as you described, or it will jam up the works big time. (Don’t ask me how I know that.) I have a "custom made" 2” length of wood dowel rod dedicated to that task that resides full time in the bullet tray. (Patent pending. .....

Could you post a photo of this wood dowel, and more importantly, how you use it?

 

[higgite]

Could you post a photo of this wood dowel, and more importantly, how you use it?

The "custom made" part was sorta tongue in cheek. I just cut a 2" piece off the end of a 3/16" round wood dowel that I happened to have laying around. Like GWS said, an Allen wrench or anything of similar size will work. The way I use it is just hold the press handle so the ram can’t move when I press down on the primer, then push straight down on the primer with the dowel, pushing it back into its hole in the APS strip. It'll make sense when you get your press set up.

You asked earlier about the sensitivity of the RCBS lockout die. I looked up my notes on a test I ran on mine. It will let pass a range of about 3.5 grains of W231 in a 9mm case. For instance, if you set it to lockout at 3 grains or less, it will let approx 3 to 6.5 grains pass. It will lockout above or below that range. It's a little rough near each end of its range, so I set it such that it operates smoothly at my target charge weight. It isn’t anywhere close to being sensitive enough to count on for precise monitoring of your charge weight. You still need to occasionally do a weight check, same as if you had no lockout relay at all. It’s job essentially is to lock out the press if it detects an empty case or a double charged case. In my experience, it does that well.

 

[GW Staar]

GWS,
I wonder why our presses operate differently? Mine is an auto advance model, 4 years old, purchased in 2011.

Mine was purchased just after December, 2008....sort of a consolation purchase after my party lost the White House. Did a good job to take my mind off of it and made me feel better....sorta.

So they improved it after all my emails and didn't tell me! That figures. Me and Peter Eick were pains in their arses in those days..... What were we clambering for? Powder-thru expanders....got them, a cheaper bullet feeder (demonstrated by the "$28 Bullet Feeder") they copied that idea with their "Tube Feeders" (Allied Armory's idea came while reading my Hornady Bullet Feeder Mod thread.), and then Peter kept asking for a 7 or 8 station press! So they do listen even if they don't pay royalties for the ideas, or even tell us about the "improvements". What I'd love to be is a product tester!......haven't been invited....and most likely never will.....must have been the Hornady Bullet Feeder I bought!

One thing hasn't changed.....their products are great, while their marketing skills aren't so.......and they always jump the gun when they release their products slightly before they're really ready. Blame the Shot Show coming only once a year! Best thing about RCBS....superlative customer service....and they are reactive listeners. (they're quiet but they read these reloading forums....obviously!)

Early adopter, BM2, who did a good review of the new Pro Chucker 5 on AR15.com and reported primer shuttle breakage, now reports that they have changed the shell plates to stop the primer feeder shuttle breakage. (their so-called expendable plastic part to prevent primer tube kabooms...made to break first) I'm very interested in what they came up with. And he reports that RCBS is using the new case feeder on their test presses now, and its all............most..........ready! Should be interesting!

On the Lock-out die:

Higgite's statement is worth repeating:

It’s job essentially is to lock out the press if it detects an empty case or a double charged case. In my experience, it does that well.

Same thing with my "video powder cop". Check your powder charge often, no matter what method you use.