Reaction time and "the Fence"

[sidheshooter]

...or whatever you want to call it. If y'all haven't seen this video, it's worth a viewing. If you get bored (literally watching the point get beat half to death) before the 2:17 mark, forward there for the rest of the lesson with this guy's robot.

Bottom line, "the fence", by whatever name, strikes me as a great tactic. This vid provides graphic proof of how important it is to keep your hands up: managing conversations initiated by strangers; in the draw stroke (support hand) for any weapon, whatever.

Vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0439xB8e50&feature=share

 

[conw]

Good point. The second part of the vid is a little weird but the footage is good so I'll address that first.

A lot of people will say this is "common sense" but until you practice it, it's hard to realize a) how hard to remember it is to do this when you are actually talking with someone vs "fighting" them; and b) what this enables you to do, and how to segue to the other options.

The other thing is (and I have seen this A LOT) "gun guys'" tendency to drift the strong-side hand down during the pre-fight, verbal, or whatever you wanna call it, phase, is bad. All kinds of bad, because it can potentially telegraph a weapon, it doesn't really enable you for a clean draw if you are at conversation distance, and it obviously leaves you very, very open. The above paragraph is pretty much the reason most gun guys need to take ECQC: to untrain the bad habits that tend to get engrained through the gun-centric mindset.

Now, as for the second part of the vid, maybe it was just an illustration, but that is not an ideal way to "block" a punch for a lot of reasons. The three-point helmet or default position used by Straight Blast Gym, ISR Matrix, Rodney King's CMD, and Southnarc (it's all pretty much the same thing as far as the position I'm referring to) is a lot better for reasons perhaps beyond the scope of this thread.

I guess it's cool to design a "robot" but with a training partner you can do a whole lot more. It's crucial to layer in the verbal component, movement, and counter-attack and actually pressure test the material. Having the hands up is a start but it's only a transitional position that you need to be able to work from.

 

[RTR_RTR]

Having boxed for a couple years, it is very difficult to block/slip punches, even when you're expecting them. The best advice I can give is make space between you and the aggressor (backpedaling). It will (1) readily identify him as the aggressor to anyone nearby and (2) make it much harder for him to not broadcast a punch and (3) make him overextend and open himself up to a counter if he does try to throw a punch.

With respect to blocking/slipping punches in particular - I agree with the above that what he's doing is not what I'd recommend.

 

[lemaymiami]

Space, and keeping your distance from any potential aggressor is the most important thing I'd want to teach anyone wanting to learn basic defensive skills, period.

As a police supervisor and finally watch commander I was frequently involved in training issues on both sides of the issue (both receiving training, then on the planning side as we helped our trainers put into their in-service classes the things they thought important).

Here's a true account to make a point.... An honest citizen came to me about an incident that had happened six months before. One of our officers had been assaulted by a citizen "without warning"... Of course everyone went to his aid, and the aggressor went to jail. He'd already served his brief jail time long before I was approached.... The information I received after the fact was an eye witness account that showed what really happened....

Here's the witness account. He saw the "little guy" (aggressor) in loud conversation with the "big cop"... He saw the officer waving his finger in the guy's face, and he could see the little guy getting madder and madder. The officer just kept talking down to the little guy and kept on waving his finger in the other man's face and didn't appear to notice that the citizen was getting more and more angry. Suddenly the offcier was on the ground and getting pummeled... Fortunately all that was involved was fists, but that situation was entirely avoidable and pretty clearly the officer involved needed some training (and maybe some talking to...). All of this took place in the very early nineties and I was working the day that "officer needs help" call went out. The officer was okay - but it could have turned out much worse and the officer clearly had a lot to do with what happened...

Keeping your distance from anyone you might have to fight is a very, very good idea (and not provoking fights is probably a pretty good idea as well).

 

[Owen Sparks]

You can't back up as fast as the bad guy can move forward if he suddenly charges. In a confined space the best tactic is generally to stay beyond his hands reach and "work the outside" or circle away from whatever hand the opponent has back (usually his right) The theory is that most people in the street really can't throw a good jab and you want to avoid the powerful back hand. If you allow the opponent to face you he can hit or grab you with both hands, kick you with either leg or even attack with a head-butt. If you circle off to the outside all he has is one hand and one leg to attack you with and again, most people really can't kick throw a decent jab without a fair amount of training.

 

[RTR_RTR]

If they charge in, they're asking to get clocked. You can't charge in and punch and keep any kind of a defense up. You're also at the advantage for reaction time there because you choosing to plant and throw is unexpected - he can't change his charge. If they can shrug off the punch, well, then it gets stickier! Defense options other than your body exist for a reason

 

[Bix]

The other thing is (and I have seen this A LOT) "gun guys'" tendency to drift the strong-side hand down during the pre-fight, verbal, or whatever you wanna call it, phase, is bad.

Agreed. I've found myself unintentionally slipping into an interview stance - compromising my hips & hands - with negative consequences when pressure is applied.

The points about keeping distance are good. The fence assists with that (by sending a nonverbal signal to "keep back") but it also provides something to work from when you can't control the distance for whatever reason.

Good thread.

 

[AOK]

If they charge in, they're asking to get clocked. You can't charge in and punch and keep any kind of a defense up. You're also at the advantage for reaction time there because you choosing to plant and throw is unexpected - he can't change his charge. If they can shrug off the punch, well, then it gets stickier! Defense options other than your body exist for a reason

In your previous post you mentioned backpedaling. I'm assuming when you say "backpedal" you are referring to moving how you learned to move backwards as a boxer (or others should have learned through basic h2h training) where you are still balanced and ready. Your average "gun guy" with no h2h experience is going to literally walk backwards and put themselves in a very vulnerable position of being ran over if charged. Even if you move backwards with good footwork you have no way of knowing what is behind you such as another attacker.

 

[kayak-man]

The other thing is (and I have seen this A LOT) "gun guys'" tendency to drift the strong-side hand down during the pre-fight, verbal, or whatever you wanna call it, phase, is bad. All kinds of bad, because it can potentially telegraph a weapon, it doesn't really enable you for a clean draw if you are at conversation distance, and it obviously leaves you very, very open. The above paragraph is pretty much the reason most gun guys need to take ECQC: to untrain the bad habits that tend to get engrained through the gun-centric mindset.

+10

I took ECQC over the the weekend and that was one of the major things I took away (Other than I need to get more comfortable making the decision to "not be nice"). After one of the evolutions, I was asked if I went for the gun at all. I didn't think I did... but one of the other guys was paying attention to it... he said he lost track of how many times I was reaching for the gun. I find myself doing it all the time now that I'm aware of it...
And its not just the gun that I'm picking at: The knife, the flashlight, the other knife, the reload, the other gun...

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[RTR_RTR]

In your previous post you mentioned backpedaling. I'm assuming when you say "backpedal" you are referring to moving how you learned to move backwards as a boxer (or others should have learned through basic h2h training) where you are still balanced and ready. Your average "gun guy" with no h2h experience is going to literally walk backwards and put themselves in a very vulnerable position of being ran over if charged. Even if you move backwards with good footwork you have no way of knowing what is behind you such as another attacker.

Yes, sorry, I should have been clearer in my post - putting yourself off center balance is generally not a good idea. This doesn't necessarily mean keeping a boxer's stance and step as you move, but the general principles (maintaining balance, center of mass between your feet, not alternating/crossing your feet, etc.) are all good guidelines.

With respect to not knowing if another aggressor is behind you, that's pretty independent of stepping backward, and you KNOW there's an aggressor in front of you. At any rate, against uneven numbers, I hope you have some kind of equalizer because that doesn't tend to work out so well!

 

[Batty67]

Not sure this is relevant, but as a person who did over 20 years of medieval-reinactment full contact fighting and western martial arts, to me, "backpedaling" means backing away and to the left or right (like the shape of a "J", not straight back as it is much easier to lose your balance. When fighting an aggessive/charging person dictating the spacing is key. Of course, this might mean stepping in suddenly. On another front, backing away from an aggressor, if witnessed, can be a good thing.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Anyone who has spent much time in the ring knows that there is only a limited amount of backing that you can do before you get into the ropes. Outside the ring it is usually no different. There are plenty of obstacles such as walls, furniture, parked cars and other people to limit your rearward movement. Worst of all you can't see directly behind you. Again the best tactic is to circle off to the side long enough to draw your weapon. That way you can buy yourself some time and still see where you are going through your peripheral vision at least well enough not to back into a wall or parked car.

 

[sidheshooter]

Good discussion thus far. It's worth saying that I posted the video purely because it provides stark reminder of how fast an attack can come, once initiated.

I am not endorsing the slip/catch blocking shown at the end; rather just letting the footage speak for itself as to what we can reasonably expect by way of common attack, and how much chance we have of salvaging the situation with our hands down.

Regarding the idea of SN's default position (or something like it): agreed, 100 percent.

It is telling that guys like Douglas, Janich (who I trained with again this weekend), McCann, Miller, et al. all advocate a similar guard position, strapped to our hardwired startle response. Since there seems to be some consensus among very skilled combatives people, I'm sold.

One other take away–in addition to find a non-confrontational way to keep your hands up–is to become skilled at noticing (and being able to articulate after the fact) pre-assault indicators: grooming, target glancing, escape glancing, weight shift and signs of adrenalization.

Knowing that an attack is likely coming before initiation, and having a plan to work, with your hands ready, is about the best we can do (short of not being there), IMHO.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

Being able to deflect a punch (which is what the video is demostrating) "Slipping" is moving the head/body side to side to avoid a punch... but as anybody who's ever boxed knows it's difficult and it risky. It almost never works right from go. Once a cadence with an oppoent has been established it can be done easier. Usually not much time for that before a street fight begins. Sucker punching is the way of the land. It's best if you can remain out of reach if at all possible. No reason to let somebody who's angry at you or just not a freind you close you in.
Putting your hands up as they approach as the video is suggesting, equates to you escalating the situation from verbal to violent. You better be ready to fight at that point cause if you weren't in one before you are now. You can stiff arm the person before they close the gap all the way. That doesn't mean shove them, just use the lenght of your arm to stop them from coming closer. Your so to say "building a fence". If the agressor swats your hand away, you know his intentions are malicious. Or this person might swing immediately though that isn't common. Typically they're just trying to close the gap first to get that one good first punch off. How you deal with it from there is up to you. My point is that no reason to let somebody get that close if you have the oppertunity to stop them. Plenty of other situations exist that don't always allow that, and have to be dealt with accordingly. There is not one magic move to stop all sucker punches.
To surmise my response to the OP's question: If your in a postion where it's necessary to put your hands up like that, your already in a fight. It's not a "neuatral ready" stance.
I hope that wasn't too long winded. It's difficult to explain these things without the ability to demonstrate.

 

[sidheshooter]

It might be worth defining some of these terms. Most on ST&T have seen enough of the late Paul Gomez’ videos to have been exposed to this material, but may as well have it in one place.

Video (middle of three in a series on youtube, I'd highly recommend watching the intro as well to get the context, but YMMV) by the guy who coined "the fence" (as credited by Gomez), may as well see the technique explained by a guy who uses it on the job:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEBnhwZmknU&feature=relmfu

Southnarc’s version:

Janich:

(btw, in reality, his hands are likely going to be a little higher–he just covered this in seminar, which is why I say that–I’m guessing that the photographer asked him to lower his hands just enough to see his face, since the shot is for TV promotional, rather than training purposes...)



Different versions of the "default guard" position, for when things go (or start out) south:

SN:

McCann:

Janich:

Miller:

FWIW.

 

[scaatylobo]

Never

I am 65 years old and was LEO.

I NEVER EVER let anyone that close to me,if they try - I stop them by any means at my disposal.

I am not tough,fact is if I were 'tough' I would enjoy fighting.

I only fight to win,and I keep any and all at "that" distance.

If you dont know "that" distance then I feel sorry for you.

At the distance I saw all the punches thrown ,I was not at all surprised at the outcome,but it was interesting to see SO many so dumb.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I am 65 years old and was LEO.

I NEVER EVER let anyone that close to me,if they try - I stop them by any means at my disposal.

I am not tough,fact is if I were 'tough' I would enjoy fighting.

I only fight to win,and I keep any and all at "that" distance.

If you dont know "that" distance then I feel sorry for you.

At the distance I saw all the punches thrown ,I was not at all surprised at the outcome,but it was interesting to see SO many so dumb.

Yes distance matters. Distance is time. KEEP your distance.

Keep in mind, action beats reaction and if the other guy has a well practiced left he can nail you before you get your shelds up at close range.

And BTW this includes kicking. I know a thing or two about this subject and there are people who can kick as fast as you can punch (and hit harder.)

Keep that in mind folks. Keep your distance.

Deaf

 

[conw]

So literally no one ever gets within 0-12 feet of you guys ever? Ever??

Sounds like a strange way to go about daily life to me.

Btw the southnarc fence pic is incorrect. He uses the one Gomez showed.

Edit: I looked at the SN fence pic wrong. It's pretty much how he teaches it.

 

[lemaymiami]

-of course keeping one's distance doesn't apply in everyday interaction with others. But the moment a person shows the slightest sign of aggression (or preparatory moves that raise your alarms...) then distance is your friend, period. Anyone that attempts to close that distance during a dispute, disagreement, or street-type situation... they've declared their intent in my opinion (and I earned that opinion the hard way...).

Anything that allows you to time to react (or get to cover if that's needed) can be a lifesaver. This has nothing to do with any particular fighting technique but does have everything to do with survival..... No, this isn't about dealing with a sudden blitz attack with absolutely no warning... Almost always there will be signs/signals of some sort that you're in a self defense possibility. Reading those signs (paying real attention to what's going on around you) is a primary self defense mechanism. This sort of stuff can be taught to someone who's never lived close to the bone.... but most of us learn it "on the job". That learning process may require a few band-aids (if you're lucky).

 

[Fred Fuller]

The 'fence' is but one element of a system for managing unknown contacts, and it is an element that is likely to be employed pretty far along in the process as well, if indeed it is needed at all. Take a look at the series of still photos and text descriptions at http://www.safeism.com/pdfs/SNContacts.pdf to see an early embodiment of the system as taught by Southnarc.

I'd add the following... note the age and sex of the participants in the 'fights' shown in the early part of the video linked in the OP. Note the proximity the 'punchee' allowed the puncher to obtain before the punch was thrown. Those might be considered clues as to why understanding the whole MUC (managing unknown contacts) system is important to you.

 

[conw]

Actually the high compressed fence is initiated pretty early in the interview process (along with arcing movement) for several reasons:

1) Body language - it says "go away"

2) Potential multiple bad guys - if one is approaching you from another angle just outside your vision, having the fence up as soon as you interact with the one you CAN see is advantageous

3) I only suspect this, whereas the others are canonical reasons )), but having it up as early as possible streamlines the decision making process, without any negative trade-offs involved - it simplifies things to do it 100% of the time ASAP rather than attempt to insert another binaristic cue based decision.

Potential threat? Put fence up, run verbal playlist, arc.

Other cues determine some of your further actions, but those three basically "loop" and escalate as you determine whether to fight or escape, and how to do those things.

If "arc and run verbal playlist" were on loop, but "put fence up" was more specifically cue-dependent, it would eat up your mental processing power when deciding when and how to commit to fighting and/or escaping.

 

[scaatylobo]

No,no one does

Sorry but 12 feet = really.

The punches I saw were all thrown from less then 3 feet.

And I do not allow any to get that close without a reaction from me.

And yes I have used 'the fence' since my days as a student of the martial arts [ back about 1965 ].

After becoming LEO the distance I allowed any to close was outside a kick,I have done so with great outcome since keeping that a practice.

My expression is "another step and I will drop you" has NEVER been challenged.

And I have used it a few hundred times both as LEO and civilian now.

And of course I do mean it.

 

[conw]

I think the context of this discussion is important. You are stating that you don't allow obvious or known threats within a certain radius because you issue a verbal challenge that is very specific and threatening.

The ability of some people to get closer than that, people whom you have not categorized as an obvious or known threat, is what I am discussing. Examples would be entering a restroom as someone is leaving, standing in line at a convenience or drug store or gas station, or people walking by your car without saying anything as you pump gas.

I am not saying you should embrace the fact that people spend time there... but they do (unless you live a very, very unconventional lifestyle). The TPI paradigm, which is interchangeable with Shivworks teaching and a lot of this discussion re. the "fence," is partly about doing away with black and white thinking and seeing in terms of grey, accepting that sometimes people may get close, or we may be tired and not initially see through a ruse, etc. Think of it like a layered defense system in any other context. Sometimes the initial layers won't work; I'm glad that your experience so far has been successful, but there obviously need to be "deeper" layers.

Saying "put your hands up if you think you may have to fight" is not revolutionary. Coming up with a system that takes average joes with guns who have done some basic marksmanship training, and gives them an advanced and proactive decision making paradigm with verbal and positional components, is not something that is being done very commonly.

That isn't to say no one has ever figured this stuff out for themselves - I am sure being a patrol cop is very conducive to this sort of thing. But you have to realize that this material is just not being taught commonly enough to civilian students (or many cops for that matter) especially not in such a systematic, effective format.

To me, and to most people, this

I NEVER EVER let anyone that close to me,if they try - I stop them by any means at my disposal.

Is not realistic, legal, or useful. Sorry... it just isn't. Nor is a one size fits all, black and white approach. And as much as I think it's overused, the Tueller drill is a good example of how fast someone can close distance; assume they aren't brandishing a knife or giving you a specific reason to threaten them verbally. Heck, reduce the speed by 50% and you have about 4 seconds to deal with a person approaching you from 7 yards. THAT is where material like the fence, MUC (posted by Fred), and so on, shine.

 

[Deaf Smith]

So literally no one ever gets within 0-12 feet of you guys ever? Ever??

Sounds like a strange way to go about daily life to me.

Btw the southnarc fence pic is incorrect. He uses the one Gomez showed.

Edit: I looked at the SN fence pic wrong. It's pretty much how he teaches it.

Yes we get close quite often but with unknown contacts that give off warning signals we sure don't!

Deaf

 

[scaatylobo]

@ conw

As sure as those attacks were closer than 3 ',I am sure that there was a confrontation.

That being the case,yes I walk through doors and come close to many,BUT they are not in any manner shape or form in attack mode or ANY threat to me.

I was LEO and that was where I developed my technique that I still use.

It has saved me more times than I could count.

There is a huge difference between paranoia [ passing a person in a hallway ] and a confrontation.

I taught defensive tactics at the academy and inservice for 22 years and I was a 'street' patrolman and that meant walking a bar beat .

I know from experience what works,not from school drills and reading or watching a DVD.

Do what works for you,I am 65 and still have my front teeth .