Reaction time and "the Fence"

[Owen Sparks]

The "fence" or whatever it is called is nothing new. It is basically the same hand position that has been taught in boxing and other martial arts for thousands of years, and for a good reason. The only real difference is that with the fence the hands are open with the palms toward the aggressor. This serves several important purposes. One is to project “Stop, stay back” through body language as well as showing the hands open as empty hands usually an indication that you do not intend to attack. This is really an advantage if there is a witness. Especially if you say something like “I don’t want any trouble.” Or “I don’t want to fight. I am going to get in my car and leave.” If you close your hands into fists you will tip the bad guy off that he is already in a fight. The strategy we teach is to keep your hands open and attempt to circle to the outside and back away, make it very obvious to any potential witnesses that you don’t want to fight. Then, if the bad guy continues to encroach, STRIKE FIRST!

There is an old martial arts axiom which states:

It is not he that throws the first punch who is in the wrong, it is he who insists on fighting who is in the wrong.

 

[Harley Rider 55]

It took years to completely understand the importance of my exercise "Bagua circle walking." Sifu told me I would understand, in time. It allows me to always be elusive, on balance, and within range to disable someone. To an aggressor, he cannot follow me without losing ballamce. Therefore, he has no physical advantage.

Push-hands exercise developed the ability to keep an aggressors hands from any part of my body. If I have a weapon. his hands will always be routed away from the weapon. In his determination to grasp the weapon, he's lost balance and may find himself on the ground.

 

[Harley Rider 55]

Owen Sparks
"He who runs away, lives to fight another day"

The "fence" being open hands with palms facing the aggressor is a natural Baguazhang hand position. It is actually a fighting stance to those in the know.

 

[Trent]

The "fence" being open hands with palms facing the aggressor is a natural Baguazhang hand position. It is actually a fighting stance to those in the know.

As well as Kempo, and others.

To me, if I were to see someone standing that way, I would take it as a sign of aggression and back the hell off. Defensive postures can turn to aggressive attacks in the blink of an eye.

As far as distance? Someone who's trained in movement and highly skilled can cover considerable distance in a timespan well under normal human reaction speed (roughly .1 seconds). I've been tagged by 5th- and 6th- Dans in kumite, from ranges well outside of what I'd expect to be hit from. Truly skilled individuals can pull this off without telegraphing their movement to the defender.

As far as backing up in a straight line? Only thing that'll happen is you'll get hit.

Training for lateral movement takes a LOT of practice (distance, timing, telegraphing), but is highly effective - especially when the movement leads to you being behind the attacker.

You don't have to be fast to win a fight. Or strong. Just don't be in the same spot where the aggressors hands and fists and any weapons happen to be.

 

[bhhacker]

I think a lot of people are forgetting a few things. Most of the time in altercations like these, there are pretty big and noticeable progressions. Unless its is an out of nowhere jumping or something.

Usually its arguing, yelling, you get in each others face, shoving, punching, etc.

Im not saying that every one of those happens, but there are at least a couple of those red flags. It should be easy enough to acknowledge and de escalate things.

My dad taught me what he called the poker stance. Which was essentially a defensive posture in disguise that you could quickly act or react out of.

Usually I will use what is boxing and kickboxing is called a relaxed guard. That means i have my left hand forward, and resting down. usually i leave it on my hip or around that area and my right hand will be up but scratching my neck, or ear.

That way im not telegraphing that im ready, and am not being the aggressor.
When people get into my face though i have a really bad habit of head butting them right in the nose. I think im solving that issue one dummy at a time.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNdc9-mReQo


This has some funny parts to it, but some nice stuff as well. Just something to watch if you like Bas Rutten, seld defense, or if you like wasting time.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Never initiate aggression but always strike first when you see that fighting is unavoidable. Right or wrong the odds are always with whoever lands the first punch. Make it loud and clear to any witnesses that you do not want to fight and are trying to leave.

 

[DaisyCutter]

I hit first.

Never had a problem articulating why on the use of force form.

Critters, humans included, give signs prior to fighting. Only humans have been trained to ignore that instinct. There are times when avoiding conflict is not possible, and when the time comes the survivor is generally the one who takes the initiative.


Maybe it's because I grew up on a farm, or maybe because I'm sensitive, but I can watch a person's heart rate increase and see their fingers tremble, and lnow I'm standing in front of the exit. The fight will be on. Horses and cattle, dogs and most other critters will telegraph their move with body language. You don't want to meet that adrenaline head on with a 1100lb horse, let alone a human.

I avoid the fight if I can, but lacking any other option I'll take the initiative.

 

[Owen Sparks]

In a gunfight you don't wait for the bad guy to draw or shoot first. Your cue is when he reaches for his gun or SAYS that he is going to shoot you. Punching is no different. You can not afford to get your bell rung and then attempt to defend yourself effectivly.

 

[RTR_RTR]

I have a somewhat unrelated question that I'll tack in here - I've been unable to figure out what justifiable force is in my theoretical altercations. - I'm a fairly small guy (6', 145 lbs, although the weight I do have is all lean muscle), and being such, I would likely be physically outmatched in most altercations. I have a very strong chin, but that might just mean I can stand up for my butt whooping I do have good hands (speed and power) and thus see making the 1st strike if a fight is inevitable & inescapable as what would certainly be in my best interest.

Now, with that said, my real question. Assuming that you are CLEARLY on the defensive (despite making the 1st strike), is there a force difference in making a strike to the head vs a strike to the neck? While the neck is well protected and unlikely to be a successful strike, it's an attractive target because a "miss" is likely a strike to the chin. So, 2 scenarios - (1) is the force level different striking the neck if it were somehow proven that the target was intentional? and (2) are the force level and its ramifications independent of that provable intent?

Thank you!

 

[Trent]

Neck makes a good target if you can hit it. Soft, and painful.

If you're defending yourself, the bad guy has already waived his rights to receive pain away when he decided to inflict it on you. Everything is on the table.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

I have a somewhat unrelated question that I'll tack in here - I've been unable to figure out what justifiable force is in my theoretical altercations. - I'm a fairly small guy (6', 145 lbs, although the weight I do have is all lean muscle), and being such, I would likely be physically outmatched in most altercations. I have a very strong chin, but that might just mean I can stand up for my butt whooping I do have good hands (speed and power) and thus see making the 1st strike if a fight is inevitable & inescapable as what would certainly be in my best interest.

Now, with that said, my real question. Assuming that you are CLEARLY on the defensive (despite making the 1st strike), is there a force difference in making a strike to the head vs a strike to the neck? While the neck is well protected and unlikely to be a successful strike, it's an attractive target because a "miss" is likely a strike to the chin. So, 2 scenarios - (1) is the force level different striking the neck if it were somehow proven that the target was intentional? and (2) are the force level and its ramifications independent of that provable intent?

Thank you!

It works like this, you attack untill the attacker stops attacking by any means necessary. It's not a cage match where a ref will swoop in and save you. Keep in mind that some techinques like eye gouging and soft tissue attacks like fish hooking can earn you a charge of maiming. But if you get knocked out/down.. you have to assume the assult will continue upon you. There by making a fist fight a life or death battle.
That said, you being a just actor have to be able to determine when adaquate force has been used. ( don't keep beating them once they're out) There of course are some other factors that may come into play age, size, sex for instance. But generally speaking treat everybody with bad intentions as a real threat. Anybody can get their clock punched if you hit the button right.

 

[JColdIron]

Neck makes a good target if you can hit it. Soft, and painful.

Also good because where the neck goes the head and body are sure to follow.

 

[robMaine]

I think the best approach in these situations definitely varies based on the situation. Going into a full fenced or guarded position to early can make you seem scared and an easy victim. At work when I approach someone that might be a problem, I look calm and relaxed to most observers. Look closer and you will notice very deliberate placement of where and how I stand, the fact that my chin seems to have an itch which leaves my hands up, or I will talk with my hands gesturing a lot, again keeping my hands between me and the contact without appearing fearful or aggressive.

 

[Averageman]

Those knock out punches in the video happened in my opinion because;
The Victim in this case allowed the distance to be closed within 2 1/2 feet or less.
For the most part the victims hands were at waist level.
The Victim appeared to be exchanging words while letting the distance to be closed.
No attempt to move was made.
If you don't want to be sucker punched don't be a sucker.
Keep moving, keep distance, get your hands up in a nonthreatening (seemingly) posture of submission.
In these cases I suggest;
Moving to your right with your hands up, appologise profusely and dont get cornered.
If your space or fence gets crossed, if a punch is telegraphed, if you're dealing with a nut, if you just cannot get away; you better strike first.