Read about some betrayal in Wisconsin

[Ransom]

That really doesnt give much in the way of specifics. It makes way too many leaps to be taken seriously. Kerry voted in favor of gun control bills therefore he is in favor of taking away all guns or Kerry voted in favor of "animal issues" so he is in favor of outlawing hunting. What the hell?

That whole thing pretty much goes on nothing more than a voting record. Voting yes or no on a bill can be influenced on many different things so its not an accurate portayal of a persons beliefs. Yes, Kerry is for some gun control like the AWB and closing the gunshow "loophole" but that hardly makes him in favor of outlawing all firearms and hunting. Thats a harsh thing to saddle him with when there isnt any evidence that he feels that way.

That whole article is a tad too kneejerk for me. I'd much rather see something based on Kerry's own words or actions rather than a connect the dots form of faux logic.

 

[rock jock]

That really doesnt give much in the way of specifics. It makes way too many leaps to be taken seriously. Kerry voted in favor of gun control bills therefore he is in favor of taking away all guns or Kerry voted in favor of "animal issues" so he is in favor of outlawing hunting. What the hell?

Ransom,
To my knowledge, there has never been legislation introduced during Kerry's term that sought outright "to ban all civilian ownership of firearms". So, what you are looking for doesn't exist. However, you can ascertain a politician's views and political philosophy from their voting records. In Kerry's case, he has voted consistently to restrict gun rights every time he has had that opportinuty. He has been in lockstep with the VCP and every other anti-RKBA organization on every gun issue. It is not faux logic to draw a conclusion based on solid references. In fact, it is perfectly logical to do so. You may have never read that A=C, but if A=B, and B=C........well, you get the idea.

 

[benewton]

"I'd much rather see something based on Kerry's own words or actions rather than a connect the dots form of faux logic."

Follow the votes, my man, just folllow his votes!

Skip listening to his words, skip connecting dots, simply follow his votes!

It's not really all that hard, even if you don't live next to the people's republic of Taxachusetts, to figure out how this game would be played.

 

[Ransom]

Ransom,
To my knowledge, there has never been legislation introduced during Kerry's term that sought outright "to ban all civilian ownership of firearms". So, what you are looking for doesn't exist. However, you can ascertain a politician's views and political philosophy from their voting records. In Kerry's case, he has voted consistently to restrict gun rights every time he has had that opportinuty. He has been in lockstep with the VCP and every other anti-RKBA organization on every gun issue. It is not faux logic to draw a conclusion based on solid references. In fact, it is perfectly logical to do so. You may have never read that A=C, but if A=B, and B=C........well, you get the idea.

While this is true you can also paint a completely false picture of someone using their voting record as well. Example: A bill comes up giving more money to the human society. Tacked on is a law that makes it a crime to be black. Vote no and you hate kittens and puppies. Voting isnt always a true case.

Its best to go based on what he has said himself, rather than trying to interpret and entire philosophy from a "yes" or "no".

Kerry has voted in favor of the AWG and things like that but thats hardly "wanting to outlaw all firearms". The man himself is a gun owner and a hunter. Trying to paint him as a gun hating lunatic is just plain dishonest no matter how you slice it.

Besides, Bush is in favor of the AWB as well. Using some of the same logic you could claim he wants to get rid of all firearms and is cahoots with the anti gun zealots as well. In fact, I think when it comes to firearms Bush and Kerry are pretty much one the exact same level.

 

[benewton]

Ransom:

Fair enough, since they don't read the bills they vote on, how could I be expected to?

But we do have advocates, on both sides, who do.

The democratic slate rates where with the antis?

And where with the progunners?

Contrary to the left wing's wishes, liberal is a perjorative term for those of us who have to pay the bill, while gaining no benefits beyond the requirement to pay even more, for less, in the future.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Ransom, in the middle of the Democrat primary, Kerry left the campaign trail on the single most important day--Super Tuesday--to make one of his rare appearances in the Senate. He was there to vote for Feinstein's renewal of the AW ban, and for Kennedy's bill, which would have enabled the BATFE to ban certain centerfire ammo.

He's voted with Senator "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in" Feinstein at every turn. He's voted for every anti-gun bill that's come down the pike in the last twenty years.

Josh Sugarman and the other anti's have stated publicly their intent to disarm America, and Kerry has voted the anti's way every time.

You don't have to play "connect the dots" with Kerry. The pattern is so clear that only the blind can't see it.

 

[Hack]

Who cares what the man is like underneath when he votes only to damage America further?
"Poor Lurch, it's not really his fault he voted that way".
That stuff don't wash.

 

[Ransom]

He believes in some of the things the anti gun groups have said. Does that mean he believes everything? Using the fact that he is for the AWB to assume things about him you dont honestly know is wrong. Dont saddle him with the belief that he wants to "ban all firearms and outlaw hunting" when I doubt he has said or voted for anything even remotely close to that.

Keep in mind, Bush himself supports the AWB so he agrees with Feinstein. By this same assumption logic you can argue that Bush wants to ban all firearms.

Stick with the facts. He supports the AWB and wants to intrduce background checks to gun shows and probably supports trigger locks and so forth. Dislike him on those points, dont make up things that arent true. Thats just wrong no matter what side of the fence you are on.

 

[Ransom]

An interesting tidbit, that 100% rating from the Brady group covers 21 votes that they agreed on. Some of them had nothing to do with gun control but were things like Campaign Finance Reform and an urban gun buyback program. The rest are a bunch of the same stuff over and over such as waiting periods, backgroun checks, and crap with the AWB.

So some of the claims about him being Bradys bitch are a little out of context.

 

[jfh]

Ransom, why are you

defending Kerry's record so vociferously, with some of the most tenuous of rationalizations?

Anyone who flew in to vote for the mfr's liability bill and the related AWB extension is a gun-grabber, given the logic of the AWB. (If you don't understand that logic, do a search here, on THR and read some posts.

The man is clearly dangerous to any of us who view the 2nd Amendment as an individual right. He is fully aligned with Kennedy--and past him, actually, in his gun-control voting record. He is now one of the "big four" of Senators who want to tax, register, and yes, confiscate the public's firearms.

And those issues can stand by themselves, without any reference to his 'liberal' politics. He stands for what political liberalism has become--the refuge of tyrants. I will stop this rant, less the moderator move it to the Roundtable--but I truly do NOT understand what there is to defend about Kerry's position on firearms.

Or are you one of those Democrats who thinks your gun-control brethren don't really mean what they do?

 

[Hack]

When someone claims to have voted for the war before voting against it, his family having an suv but not him, inferring that he voted to end the marriage penalty tax when in reality he voted against ending it, not supporting the death penalty for terrorists when it suited him but supporting it when it did suit him.
And my personal favorite.
Throwing away medals protesting the war and justifying it by saying they were only ribbons when it came back to bite him. Remember that one?
I truly hope that one, above all, bites him HARD.

What he believes in is subject to whim and always what's convenient for him at the moment.
I agree that we should stick to the facts.

 

[mrapathy2000]

anyone else getting the fealing people from DU are coming here to toy

 

[Ransom]

Anyone who flew in to vote for the mfr's liability bill and the related AWB extension is a gun-grabber, given the logic of the AWB. (If you don't understand that logic, do a search here, on THR and read some posts.

George W. Bush supports the AWB, does that make him a gun-grabber?

For the record I'm against all gun control. I hate the AWB just as much as you all. The difference is I also hate when people make assumptions based on no facts. Bush and Kerry have practicly the same views on gun control but one is labeled an evil gun grabber and the other gets a pass. Thats crap.

 

[Hack]

Defending Lurch. Doesn't matter how or by saying what.
As long as Lurch loses some of the smell anything's in play.
Kinda like the way they talk to our kids.

 

[DonP]

Ransom

"George W. Bush supports the AWB, does that make him a gun-grabber?"

If he ever actually signs an AWB bill, yes it does.

But what he very carefully said was, "if an extension of the current assault weapons ban reaches my desk, I will sign it". Try and find me any speeches or policy papers he has had put together in support of the AWB.

There is a slim to none chance of that happening with a Republican controlled House so it was ane asy promise to make with a low level of risk for Pissing off his base.

As previously noted, Kerry made one of his very few Senate votes for renewing and expanding the AWB then proudly posed for photos with Schumer, Feinstein and Kennedy following the vote.

Sorry, there is no way you can twist his voting record to make him even vaguely pro-second. If you love his social programs, (I'm sure he must have some to propose beyond evict GWB), then vote for him ... and say good-bye to your second amendment rights via executvie orders and a far left Supreme Court interpreting the constitution.

Anyone that gets a 100 rating from Brady will never get my vote. If Bush is dumb enough to let the AWB reach his desk and signs it, he won't either. If the AWB dies, then Bush gets my vote. I guess I'm just too simple to understand the "Subtle Nuances" of Kerry's anti-gun voting record.

 

[GEM]

Bush is not a good proactive RKBA president. I know GOPites go into twists to try to portray as such. He is clearly the lesser of two evils though on gun issues.

I'm sure Kerry would be proactive in passing new gun legislation. The gun show 'loophole' has been shown to be a very minor issue if one really understands illegal gun traffic. It is just a political totem as is the AWB.

Since Kerry is pro both, it demonstrates that he (unfortunately like Bush) don't understand the issue.

 

[Boats]

What do they say? A picture is worth a thousand words? So be it:

END OF DISCUSSION. sKERRY AIN'T DOING ANY MISUNDERSTOOD FOOTSIE WITH THE THREE WORST ANTIGUNNERS IN THE SENATE.

No one flukes their way into a simultaneous career "F" from the NRA and into a 100 score from the Bradys.

I'd also note that sKerry BORROWED his shotgun for his photo op. If he really owned one, he could keep it on his chartered freakin' campaign plane and take it with him to kill birds and clays to fool the morons.

 

[cracked butt]

Ransom,

The very reason why we elect congressmen is to make laws and vote on laws. A Congresscritter's voting record is the only thing you can judge them on at the end of the day. That being said, if it walks like a duck...

 

[Monkeyleg]

Using the "T" word may get me a moderator reprimand, but I've been looking at the dates that the Kerry supporters joined, the number of their posts on the forum, and on which topics they post.

There can't be any argument as to their intentions. As cracked butt said, if it walks like a duck...

When the anti-gunners cannot succeed legislatively, when their lawsuits are laughed out of court, when their "million mom marches" draw only a few hundred, when the Brady Bunch and the Million Mom March have to save pennies by sharing office space...you know they're losing.

When they have to send surrogates here to try to Divide and Conquer, well, things are probably even worse.

However, if Kerry succeeds in getting in, the Clinton years will look like a pillow fight. Bill Clinton didn't believe in the necessity of the AW ban, or the Brady Law, or any of the other shams we had to endure. Bill Clinton only cared about himself.

John F. Kerry, though, believes all of this. He's a True Believer, and that makes him more dangerous than Bill Clinton.

 

[rock jock]

By this same assumption logic you can argue that Bush wants to ban all firearms.

Ransom, You are purposely avoiding using any logic. Zero. Nada. Look at the facts:

- As Governor of Texas, Bush championed and signed into law the first shall-issue system in the state's history, and the first one that allowed most citizens to carry legally for the first time in almost 150 years
- Under Bush's administration, no gun-control measures have been signed into law
- Bush's personal choice for AG has declared that RKBA is an individual right. This is the first such admission by the nation's highest LEO in history (AFAIK)
- The Bush administration has openly defied the UN call for a worldwide ban on personal RKBA

- Kerry, OTOH, has voted in favor of EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF GUN CONTROL LEGISLATION during his tenure. Every one, without exception.
- Kerry is given a 100% rating by the gun-grabbers.

You cannot objectively think for a minute that Kerry is anything but a total gun-grabber.

 

[jfh]

time to smell the coffee, guys...

it looks like Ransom did his work and is gone. It's been well over 24 hours since he posted. Pretty much like Harry Truman said, isn't it?

At least until the next chance to troll....

 

[rock jock]

You're right. Waste of time on my part.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Bush and Kerry have practicly the same views on gun control but one is labeled an evil gun grabber and the other gets a pass.

Ransom, that is simply not true. Here is what Bush has done for gun owners during his term.

1. UN Small Arms Restrictions blocked by US

Kerry supports the UN in its effort to disarm gun owners in the U.S.

2. Attorney General declares Second Amendment is individual right - reverses 35 years of previous Justice Department doctrine on the matter.

Kerry supports "collective rights" interpretation saying only the organized militia is protected by the Second Amendment

3. Attorney General refuses to allow legitimate purchase of NICS data to be used for fishing expedition - Ashcroft stops grabbers from sifting through NICS data of legitimate purchasers to look for "terrorists".

Kerry opposed Ashcroft and sought to keep data even longer.

4. Ashcroft changes NICS data holding from 90 days to 1 day - NICS data on legitimate purchases will now be purged from the system in a single day as the law intended rather than being held onto for 90 days per Clinton policy

Kerry opposed this move by Ashcroft as well.

5. Bush supports and will sign lawsuit preemption bill

Kerry voted against it in March.

6. Bush ends taxpayer funding of useless HUD gun buybacks

Supported and started by Democrats.

7. Signed the appropriations bill containing the Tiahrt Amendment that protects gunowner privacy by making item #4 the law of the land.

Opposed by Kerry.

9. Gets chance to have several things he claims to support (lawsuit preemption, gunshow background checks, semi-auto ban) on a single bill. Sends letter to Congress asking them to consider only lawsuit preemption.

Kerry voted for background checks and semi-auto ban, no preemption

10. Partially repeals Clinton ban on import of some semi-auto firearm parts instituted in Summer of 2000 to allow import of parts for repair purposes.

Think Kerry would support that? His buddy Dianne was just on the Senate floor complaining about it today.

Kerry voted on March 2, 2004 to ban all centerfire rifle ammunition in America. Is that anti-gun and anti-hunting enough to satisfy your criteria?

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=2&vote=00028

Nobody is giving Bush a pass here; Kerry earned his reputation as a gun grabber with 100% support of every piece of Brady Campaign legislation introduced since 1991.

 

[Ransom]

Just a quick disclaimer: I disagree with John Kerry on all his guncontrol opinions. I'm just agianst people using made up facts against the man.

6. Bush ends taxpayer funding of useless HUD gun buybacks

Supported and started by Democrats.

While democrates might have supported this Kerry did not and voted against the gun buybacks.

Kerry voted on March 2, 2004 to ban all centerfire rifle ammunition in America. Is that anti-gun and anti-hunting enough to satisfy your criteria?

"To expand the definition of armor piercing ammunition and to require the Attorney General to promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against body armor."

Just out of curiosity how does this "ban all centerfire rifle ammunition in America"?


The point I've been making this entire thread is this: "Kerry wants to ban all firearms and outlaw hunting" is a lie. Plain and simple. Saying "Well he voted for every gun control bill" doesnt mean you can automatically assume he believes everything the Bradys believe. The man himself is a hunter and a gun owner. He may support some crappy gun control ideas but he doesnt support confiscating all firearms and outlawing hunting.

Kneejerk reactions and leaps of logic to justify a lie are wrong no matter what. When John Kerry votes for a bill that outlaws all firearms and hunting then you can make that claim, until then its unfounded and simply trying to smear the man just because you dont agree with him.

Dislike him on actual issues not made up issues.

 

[jfh]

and again, I have to say that you

defending Kerry's record so vociferously, with some of the most tenuous of rationalizations.

As for your comment about how does [Kerry's vote to support the AWB and related amendedments]...."ban all centerfire rifle ammunition in America"?, read the link provided immediately above.

It seems you would cut him far more slack for some arcane reasons, while expecting the rest of us to not reasonably predict his voting behavior based on his voting history.

So what is it that you like about the man? Are you a political liberal / Democrat who thinks he can be pro 2nd Amendment and not take the rest of the baggage--the baggage of what your party represents in its platform?