Read This, All Fellow Gun Users

[vindi C]

Please read my article with an open mind and reply in an intelligent manor so we can have a discussion. Swearing at me and immediately dismissing my theories isn't going to convert me over to your beliefs.

Guns are designed to KILL people. tasers (and similar) are designed to DETER people. I understand your want to defend your families and yourselves but defending means to simply stop and NOT kill the attacker. All you need to do is deter them - this can be reached by just knocking them unconcious with the many non lethal personal defence items for sale. And you could always use RUBBER bullets in your guns!

Another problem i have is even if your goal is reached - and every one in america owns a gun, what happens when someone opens fire on an attacker - everyone is going to pull out their gun (i know i would if i heard gun fire) and fire on each other. It is very hard to tell who has shot in a tense situation and a massive gun battle could quite easily occur - starting with just one or two bullets fired.

Please hear this - I AM IN NO WAY DENYING YOU YOUR RIGHT TO DEFEND YOUR SELF AND YOUR FAMILY - i just think everyone buying guns isn't the way. there are many other solutions - as mentioned above.

In response to another topic - hoarding guns incase of a government monopoly on weaponry - i think this isn't a bad idea in theory. But what are you going to do IF America or any other country for that matter falls into communism or tyrany. What are you going to do when a squad comes knocking on your door for weaponry, kill four of them with your stashed M4A1 then be cut down by the rest of the squad? Its a waste of human life - and ontop of everything else - its putting your family at risk of torture and arrest, do u call that protecting your family? Even if every one in your neighbourhood does the same thing and manages to take down the gaurds that come knocking on their doors - does this make us any better than them? We are still taking human life, the reason for taking the lives is irrelevant.

Many of you also think that you dont want to risk it with a less than lethal weapon and would prefer just to be safe and kill or maim the attacker with a gun and garentee you your life. This comes back to another of my points - preservation of human life. In the words of my father - who has served in vietnam, seen the horrors of war and who grew up in a rough neighbour hood with many muggins and burglarys - "No man has the right to take the life of another human" i would prefer to have all my belongings taken and be beaten and let the robber go than take his life. Though i would prefer to stun him with an air tazer and get him the help he needs.

You probably all have me figured for a "Gun hating pansy" by now - but let me tell you i appretiate the workings of a gun and shoot targets with friends at their farm quite often - i'll admit its a very fun pass time!

please read this through and post some intelligent responses.
you all think i'm a 40 year old man with nothing better to do than shout at people on the internet dont you! I'm 15 and have many better things to do than this - i enjoy talking people out of madness everyonce and a while though.

i'll close up in saying two things

1. GUNS ARE NOT TOOLS - THEY ARE DESIGNED TO KILL AND MAIM.
2. GUNS ARE NOT THE ANSWER TO SELF DEFENSE.

 

[Darkmind]

Guns are designed to KILL people. tasers (and similar) are designed to DETER people. I understand your want to defend your families and yourselves but defending means to simply stop and NOT kill the attacker. All you need to do is deter them - this can be reached by just knocking them unconcious with the many non lethal personal defence items for sale. And you could always use RUBBER bullets in your guns!

Things like tasers and such have never been proven to deter or stop people EVERY time the FIRST time. Would you want to half to defend your family while haveing to second guess your equipment.

And you could always use RUBBER bullets in your guns!

Rubber bullets can be very deadly!

Another problem i have is even if your goal is reached - and every one in america owns a gun, what happens when someone opens fire on an attacker - everyone is going to pull out their gun

I think you really need to rethink that one!

Please hear this - I AM IN NO WAY DENYING YOU YOUR RIGHT TO DEFEND YOUR SELF AND YOUR FAMILY - i just think everyone buying guns isn't the way. there are many other solutions - as mentioned above.

Once again, Would YOU want to secone guess your equipment?

kill or maim the attacker with a gun

Tasers and other things of a less than leathal nature have been known to kill and maim.

you all think i'm a 40 year old man with nothing better

Nope you sould more like an uneducated kid! Not that thats a bad thing, its just life.

 

[lwsimon]

First, I think you will find this forum VERY reasonable, and no one will likely flame you.

Secondly, I disagree with at least two of your points.

The first is that you state guns are designed to kill people. I contest that guns are designed to fire a small piece of metal at high speed. This is quite capable of killin ga person, mind you, but it is also capable of: killing animals, to put food on the table - intimidating people, to prevent the necessity of killing or injuring another - providing comfort, especially to those who are threatened, and are less physially capable of fighting back, be the threat human, or animal. I'm certain other on this forum can vocalize what i'm trying to say more clearly. Guns are good for a lot more than putting a bullet into someone.

The second major disagreement is your belief that hearing shots will result in a gun battle on the streets. In most states, to obtain a CCW, and therefore the ability to legally carry concealed in public, you must qualify in regards to basic skills to handle the weapon, and the laws governing its use. I think you will find that the VAST majority of CCW holders are more responsible than your average citizen. The power and responsibility one has when carrying a lethal weapon is awesome, in the true sense of the word. Its humbling. People may very well draw at the sound of nearby gunfire, but the taking of a human life is not an easy thing, not to mention the legal and personal repurcussion. No one is going to start shooting willy-nilly at the mere sound of gunfire. A gun is to be used in defense of yourself, your loved ones, and if law and your moral code allows it, innocents. Very few cases allow you to defend your property with deadly force.

You say you are 15 years old. I'm 20. Already, I have had 3 occasions where I was VERY glad I had a gun with me. The first, I was 9 years old, home alone, and someone pulled into my driveway and attempted to break into my house. In this case, I only had to yell for them to leave, and that I was prepared to defend myself, and they ran. I was crouched against a wall across from the doorway they were at, with a shotgun leveled and ready. The second incident was when I first moved out on my own, with my fiance. Some neighbors we had at the time were doing cociane, and followed me to my vehicle with a handgun. I got to my truck and drove away, but my fiance was still in the house. I was able to get her out by retrieving a rifle I had stored behidn the seat, and coming back for her. Again, no shots fired, everyone walked away unhurt. I don't think I would have been able to walk away from that if all I had was a taser or some pepper spray. The third time was only a few weeks ago, at Wal-mart. I was in the parking lot when some teenagers openned fire on a cary driving by at the store entrance. I was putting my groceries into the bed of my pickup - its a covered bed - and when I heard the shots, I got my fiance safely down behidn the car, and I had a hunting rifle in my hand before the car they shot at could even get away. Again, I did not fire, didn't even draw their attention. They fled, but if they had come at me, or had threatened someone else, I would have taken action. The way it turned out, I replaced my rifle, called 911, and stayed around to give the police as good a description as I could.

I guess all I'm trying to say is this: A gun is a tool, and only a tool. It is made of steel and wood. A gun is incapable of killing a person on its own. There will always be criminals out there who seek to do other harm, and the best defense against that is to stay alert, and to have the means ready to defend yourself at all times.

 

[Preacherman]

Vindi C, thanks for posting. You've made some points worth answering, and I'll give it my best shot (pun intended! ) below.

First, you said:

Guns are designed to KILL people. tasers (and similar) are designed to DETER people. I understand your want to defend your families and yourselves but defending means to simply stop and NOT kill the attacker. All you need to do is deter them - this can be reached by just knocking them unconcious with the many non lethal personal defence items for sale. And you could always use RUBBER bullets in your guns!

Unfortunately, less-lethal methods of defence are frequently inadequate to stop an attacker. I know whereof I speak: I'm a chaplain in a Federal prison, and we have many, many inmates who are combative. We don't use lethal force methods to control them, and it leads to a great many staff injuries on occasion! If an attacker is hopped-up on drugs, or mentally unstable, it frequently requires a considerable amount of force to stop them - sometimes, more than can be delivered through less-than-lethal techniques. Any police force in the world will confirm this. This is why police who carry Tasers (a great invention, by the way, which has saved many lives) also carry firearms: because there will - WILL - be times when the Taser isn't enough. So, firearms are still a necessary part of the equation.

Second:

everyone is going to pull out their gun (i know i would if i heard gun fire) and fire on each other

Er - no, they're not! There have been countless thousands of instances of the use of firearms in self-defence by ordinary citizens (not police) in the USA. In none of those instances was there a sort of "mass shooting" by other members of the public. I don't think such an outcome will ever occur, because one's usual reaction on hearing shots fired in one's immediate vicinity is to get down and hunt for cover! I carry a firearm daily, and I can assure you, there's no way I'm going to get involved in anyone else's gunfight! Besides, it's illegal to do so: most states allow the use of lethal force only to protect oneself, or those under one's protection, against an imminent, unlawful and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or serious injury.

Next: "hoarding" guns. I don't personally have any friends in the shooting community who buy guns for the purpose of hoarding them against the day when an evil government will try to confiscate them. There are probably some such people around, but the vast majority of shooters buy their guns legally, use them legally, and enjoy doing so. We're not blinkered fanatics who see ourselves using our guns to defend against hordes of jack-booted thugs overrunning our country. Of course, if such a threat came to pass, such measures would be taken: but quite frankly, I think it's silly to speculate about such things. I regard them as being unlikely to the point of impossibility.

Another point:

"No man has the right to take the life of another human"

I agree that this is a wonderful theory: but it's also simply untrue. What you're saying is that I have to allow a criminal to take my life, because I don't have the right to take his life! You see, this position is a contradiction in terms. If no-one has the right to take another's life, then he/she must be stopped before they can do so illegally: and sometimes, the only way they can be stopped is by taking away their own life. You can't have it both ways. I've had to use a gun to defend myself and others, and whilst I deeply regret the necessity to do so, I would not hesitate to do so again.

Finally, let's look at your closing points.

1. GUNS ARE NOT TOOLS - THEY ARE DESIGNED TO KILL AND MAIM.
2. GUNS ARE NOT THE ANSWER TO SELF DEFENSE.

1. Guns are, indeed, tools. Just like a hammer, or a motor vehicle, or an eraser, they are designed to do a particular job. Some do it better than others. They are also not necessarily designed to "kill and maim" - any Olympic shooter would immediately take issue with this statement, as his/her highly specialized target guns are almost unusable for hunting or defensive purposes. Some guns are, indeed, designed to defend oneself against attack - but that is not the same as being designed to kill and maim. They are designed to STOP the attack. Unfortunately, death and serious injury often result.

2. I actually agree with you that guns are not "the" answer to self-defence. They are the LAST RESORT in self-defence, when all other means have failed. Those other means include situational awareness, creation of a secure living environment, use of less-than-lethal defensive measures, summoning assistance, etc. These measures will very often (probably in the vast majority of cases) be sufficient to defend oneself. However, there are cases where every lesser method of self-defence fails... and that's when the gun stands between you and destruction.

I hope these thoughts help.

 

[only1asterisk]

.

 

[jobu07]

Vindi, no one here will call you ignorant for your point of view. I suggest that you hang around a while and read some of the discussions that pop up. You'll find that people who carry a weapon for self defense aren't like actors in movies. We are saftey concencious first and foremost. No one here wants to shoot anyone. Our firearms are a last resort, I assure you. Stay at our community here, read and learn. You can learn from all of us, and in turn, i'm sure we can all learn from you.

 

[vindi C]

- thanks alot

thanks for having an intelligent discussion with me - i can see one immediate difference between this and the countless other forums on the net - the responses and "FK off n00ber".

You guys have talked me over on a number of things but i also disagree with some of the stuff said - i'll quote u all later when i get some time!

thanks for this discussion.

i'lll quickly verify something

tools are designed to do certain things

hammers are designed to put nails in wood
cars are designed for transportation
guns are designed to END LIFE

so i supose in this sense, yes a gun is a tool.

and i do disagree with people when they say that tasers arent a effective method to detering people - have u seen some of the newer models? you miss with a shot - u can fire up to twenty more.

as i said i'll replay in a fuller form later when i get time - thanks all

 

[ruger270man]

yes, guns are designed to end life, but in the process, save many more lives.

 

[mnrivrat]

the reason for taking the lives is irrelevant.

You caught me on a late night with nothing to do - so I will respond here even though I think it a waste of time.

The fact is I strongly disagree with most of what you present. The quote above being in my mind the most grievous error. The reason to take a life is what IS relevent - there are legitimate reasons to use lethal force .

If your life or the lives of the ones you love are not worth defending then what is ? in your mind . You appear to think there is nothing worth defending - that's a pitiful thought in my opinion.

Face a criminal who has a gun with your taser and your going to be the dead one.

There are places for non-leathal force . Just not against a criminal who has something more and who has no respect for your right to live.

"No man has the right to take the life of another human" i would prefer to have all my belongings taken and be beaten and let the robber go than take his life.

And if the robber wanted to beat you to death ? Would it make sense to let him ?

 

[thumbody]

Welcome vindi
I see the others have spoke up on most of your points the one that I would like to adress is this

" "No man has the right to take the life of another human" i would prefer to have all my belongings taken and be beaten and let the robber go than take his life."

What if all they wanted was your spouse ,your child, your mother, your fiance, or even yourself.Would none of those deserve protection up to and including taking a criminals life?
For me those lives are worth more than anything and if I have to I will protect them any way necessary

 

[Darkmind]

thanks for this discussion.

Things like this are always fun and a good way to learn new things.

and i do disagree with people when they say that tasers arent a effective method to detering people - have u seen some of the newer models? you miss with a shot - u can fire up to twenty more.

I'm not sure if i'm right but dont most newer models need to be reloaded after every shot. I dont think i've seen one that works like a pistol mag/simi auto/auto loader. I dont know about you but i've seen a guy all hoped up and crazy on some sort of drug take a taser shot COM and keep comeing. Thats why i'll never trust my life with just a taser and nothing else.

 

[mikea]

wow...10 posts while i was typing mine!!!!!
vindi...thanks for the post...and welcome....your thinking is a bit off the mark though...

Guns are designed to KILL people. tasers (and similar) are designed to DETER people. I understand your want to defend your families and yourselves but defending means to simply stop and NOT kill the attacker. All you need to do is deter them - this can be reached by just knocking them unconcious with the many non lethal personal defence items for sale. And you could always use RUBBER bullets in your guns!

there is an old saying..."never bring a taser to a gun fight..." (or is it knife) an attacker is meaning to do you bodily harm, this attacker has some form of weapon...probably a gun...i want to have at least the same weapon as my attacker...no... i want more weapon than my attacker.
you cannot deter a drug induced felon, intent on killing you or your family....you do not know the intentions of the attacker before hand...

Another problem i have is even if your goal is reached - and every one in america owns a gun, what happens when someone opens fire on an attacker - everyone is going to pull out their gun (i know i would if i heard gun fire) and fire on each other. It is very hard to tell who has shot in a tense situation and a massive gun battle could quite easily occur - starting with just one or two bullets fired.

everyone will not pull out their guns and start firing...if that was the mindset then you would hear about law abiding citizens doing that now...owning guns has been shown to reduce attacks or at least make attackers think twice about who has a gun...when guns are outlawed...crime goes up because the criminal does not fear anyone...(look at australia and great britain)

Please hear this - I AM IN NO WAY DENYING YOU YOUR RIGHT TO DEFEND YOUR SELF AND YOUR FAMILY - i just think everyone buying guns isn't the way. there are many other solutions - as mentioned above.

yes you are...the 2nd ammendment says i can own a gun....the 2nd amendment guarantees the 1st!!!

In response to another topic - hoarding guns incase of a government monopoly on weaponry - i think this isn't a bad idea in theory. But what are you going to do IF America or any other country for that matter falls into communism or tyrany. What are you going to do when a squad comes knocking on your door for weaponry, kill four of them with your stashed M4A1 then be cut down by the rest of the squad? Its a waste of human life - and ontop of everything else - its putting your family at risk of torture and arrest, do u call that protecting your family? Even if every one in your neighbourhood does the same thing and manages to take down the gaurds that come knocking on their doors - does this make us any better than them? We are still taking human life, the reason for taking the lives is irrelevant.

if our forefathers felt that way....we would not have the freedoms that you and i enjoy today...read your history...many of the signers of the constitution lost their families and farms...sons were killed if fathers did not renounce their views...not all signers enjoyed the fruits of their labors...freedom is not free!!!

Many of you also think that you dont want to risk it with a less than lethal weapon and would prefer just to be safe and kill or maim the attacker with a gun and garentee you your life. This comes back to another of my points - preservation of human life. In the words of my father - who has served in vietnam, seen the horrors of war and who grew up in a rough neighbour hood with many muggins and burglarys - "No man has the right to take the life of another human" i would prefer to have all my belongings taken and be beaten and let the robber go than take his life. Though i would prefer to stun him with an air tazer and get him the help he needs.

what if the "robber" wants to kill you?

You probably all have me figured for a "Gun hating pansy" by now - but let me tell you i appretiate the workings of a gun and shoot targets with friends at their farm quite often - i'll admit its a very fun pass time!

please read this through and post some intelligent responses.
you all think i'm a 40 year old man with nothing better to do than shout at people on the internet dont you! I'm 15 and have many better things to do than this - i enjoy talking people out of madness everyonce and a while though.

i'll close up in saying two things

1. GUNS ARE NOT TOOLS - THEY ARE DESIGNED TO KILL AND MAIM.
2. GUNS ARE NOT THE ANSWER TO SELF DEFENSE.

no...you are young and only hearing one side of the story... the government school that you are being educated in and the anti gun crowd make sure you only hear about the shootings, etc...how many murders, robberies are thwarted just by a gun being there...not used?
keep questioning and you will find the answers...but don't take the freedoms that you have for granted...when you have to defend yourself or your family...remember...you will be on your own...and "if" you get time to call the police it will probably be 20 minutes before they arrive....what if you were protecting your mom or dad...your little sister?...you will be on your own...a felon with a gun...you with your taser...or baseball bat!!! you don't ever have to like guns and no "normal" person wants to shoot another human being....but i will protect myself and my family to the best of my ability...and so should you.

good luck in finding your answers in life...i absolutely disagree with your current views...but as you grow older you may see things in a different light...good luck

mike

 

[vindi C]

-

you will all not that i have said no one has the right to TAKE the life of another man.

It is your right to defend yourself, your family and those around you from harm. but you do not need to TAKE the life of an attacker. There are MANY ways to neutralise the threat without killing the attacker - MANY ways.

and when i said i would prefere to be robber and take a beating than take a mans life i was just saying that i would prefer to be hurt and save a life than come out without a scratch and have taken a life.

as you may have come to realise now - I am all about the preservation of life.

I'm not saying that guns are bad things and i'm not saying that you shouldn't defend your family and yourself. I'm just saying that i dont beleive that guns are the way to defend.

adressing another point - the attacker has a gun and you have a tazer - the attacker wins. If a total gun ban was made (here come the retaliations!) the robber would HAVE no gun - come to think of it thats a bad point - theres never going to be a gun ban - the reprocusions from citizens would be massive.

90% of the time the attacker just wants money and sex - pulling a gun on them is going to make them want to defend themselves and they'll pull a knife or gun on you. Making a situation where you could have just been robbed into a situation where your arm gets blown off. I'm again not telling you not to defend yourselves.

I'm happy to be a new member of these forums and i hope i can have many intelligent discussions and arguments with u guys and girls. One thing u all will need to know is that i type fast and ideas flow through my head at the rate of knots so, yes i will contradict myself and yes i will make some terrible points from time to time.

i'll finish off with another two things
1.Guns are not the way to self defence
2. i am in no way telling you not to defend - you MUST defend yourselves and others.

 

[vindi C]

-

another short thing.
I know you have a right to bear arms - i'm not trying to take that away.

i think u can still use guns for recreation fine in target ranges but i beleive they are not the answer to self defence.

also - a robber with a gun can quite easily be disarmed without you weilding a gun - look into martial arts, seriously i'm not kidding

wow these forums move fast

and also - prove me wrong but listen to what i have to say!

 

[Darkmind]

adressing another point - the attacker has a gun and you have a tazer - the attacker wins. If a total gun ban was made (here come the retaliations!) the robber would HAVE no gun

Ok now your WAY off. What about Europe? They have a total gun bad but yet attackers STILL HAVE GUNS. And they due tend to KILL people even when theres a TOTAL GUN BAN going on.

 

[Firethorn]

Vindi, I echo that a gun isn't designed to kill, a gun is designed to rapidly accelerate a round down a path. The bullet may be the one designed to kill, in the case of hollowpoints. I will argue that an ordinary household hammer is deadlier than many handguns, especially of the .22 variety.

Look at paintball guns. Firing something other than paintballs can make them quite dangerous. Lewis & Clark hunted deer with a .50 caliber air rifle.

Don't underestimate the deterence factor of a firearm. Criminals usually have the same wants that we have: Avoiding death and injury. I've heard of criminals who resist tasers and sprays. Especially drug addicts. From what I've read about tasers, especially civilian ones, is that the disablement ceases almost immediatly upon removal of the device. So if you use the taser on a bad guy, he's back 'hunting', whether it be after you or another victim in about 10 seconds. You're more likely to need to use your non-lethal method, and do you have a backup incase it fails? I've heard of crooks wearing heavy clothing to resist tasers and goggles for pepper spray. A mugger can just stand back a bit and cover you with his own gun if all you have is a taser or pepper spray.

Non-lethal devices don't often leave wounds that require the crook to go to a hospital where they can be picked up by the police. So, sure, you're safe for the moment after pepper spraying the crook. But the crook tries again later.

Confrontation with a gun has an excellent deterence rate. Maybe the crook will think twice about that line of criminality. Just look at the difference in hot robbery(where the tenants are home) rates between the USA and England.

In the case of mass shootings, well, it's best to put the perpetrater down quick. A response time of under 5 minutes is considered excellent. This is enough time for a killer to unload hundreds of aimed shots. If I'm on the scene, it's now a gunbattle between him and me. Aim tends to go to heck when it becomes a battle. Best case scenario: I pop him, killing stops. Worst case: I hit somebody else. That's why I practice.

 

[thumbody]

A world without guns

Vindi heres a little reading on the topic of a total gun ban

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel120501.shtml

 

[lwsimon]

Check out some of our other forums. We have forums on less-lethal weapons, martial arts, etc. I have been hanging around THR for about a year now, and I've met not a single person who wants to kill someone. That's not what it is about. I don't want anyone to die - most especially me, or my loved ones.

A wiser man than I once refered to a gun as "The Great Equalizer". That's exactly what they are. It doesn't matter if you're a 6'6" 240lb man, or a 90lb weakling, a pistol in your hand will give an attacker the same pause, and will deter and/or STOP an attacker with equal success.

Meanwhile, I have a question for you - and take a moment to think about this. If you were in your house, and you had just finished cleanin your target pistol, and had ready access to a loaded magazine when suddenly your front window shatters and a man comes through with a gun in his hand - would you pick up your pistol and fire, or would you try to bargain for your life?

and please note, the person flaming you for trolling has only 2 posts

 

[vindi C]

-

dark mind if u read on just a few words you would see i typed "come to think of it thats a bad point "

i dissmiss the gun ban theory - it wouldn't work as the government would never ceaes EVERY gun - there would always be at least one left to rod people with.

all you people you claim tasers in effective are wrong - i may be calling them the wrong name. A tazer fires two barbs into an attackers body from distances of up to 50 meters and is highly accurate (in many cases more so than a gun) the barbs then deliver a high voltage shock (some of the cheaper models deliver a weak shock that isn't enough to deter victems but the mid range models can paralyze for up to half an hour). maybe theyre not called tazers - u tell me

and the theory that tazers stop paralyzing the attacker when the trigger is released is absolute rot - it continues long enough to disarm the attacker and even tie him to a wall.

when i talk about tazers as apposed to guns i should really classify that there are MANY other personal defence items - and i'm not talking about those piss weak personal alarms - that i havent mentioned. i'm also not talking about pepper spray.

i'd also like to mention my love of machines (wow that sounds suspect) such as guns, their simple and effective mechanisms amaze me. Another example is the zippo - have we got any zippo fans here?

wow i'm rambling - dont block me for spaming please - i have made some points in this post

 

[keyhole]

"Guns are designed to KILL people"

Umm, er,, not all are designed for that. ( don't say that too close around my sillouette Ruger, it might get offended!) You could use the same theory for cars, that are designed to break the speed limit, by going faster than allowed.

Anyway, your post is welcome, and as always open to friendly banter. Welcome, and sit back and enjoy the conversation.

 

[jobu07]

Vindi, this is somewhat pertinent to the discussion. Where are you from? State, nation, etc. Just curious as people have different ideals based on where they grew up more often than not.

 

[Firethorn]

Do a great big post, and find more to comment on in the new replies...

Vindi: I can guarentee that the crooks will have a gun, or at least a knife or blunt instrument. You can already see the continuation of this over in Europe, where areas are trying to enact knife bans. They've actually found 3 illegal gun factories in England!

With home tools I could make a blackpowder weapon. Over in the Middleeast there are towns that make AK-47's, and they have no electricity, it's all done with hand tools.

Martial Arts? I'm a small 5'6" guy in middling shape. I'm uncoordinated, yes, I've had martial arts, but my skills will never be extreme. I know women who are 4' something. Do you think that unarmed "martial arts" will protect me or that woman against a 300 pound former linebacker? How about my grandfather. He's a surviver of polio, but has permament nerve damage in his lower spine. He can't practice martial arts, but he can carry a .38.

90% of the time the attacker just wants money and sex - pulling a gun on them is going to make them want to defend themselves and they'll pull a knife or gun on you. Making a situation where you could have just been robbed into a situation where your arm gets blown off. I'm again not telling you not to defend yourselves.

And we're supposed to protect ourselves against the remaining 10% how? I'm sorry, but I feel that protection against rape and assault is a perfectly good reason for using lethal force.

I think it's that you value life regardless, but we put a value quantifier on it. IE it's best to put a mass murderer down because to do otherwise will cost more life. A single criminal can cause a huge amount of damage to an area.

Just look at stealing car stereos- They smash the window and pry it out, causing thousands of dollars worth of damage for a stereo worth maybe $50.

 

[Firethorn]

Vindi, the tasers that shoot barbs are police models. Often unobtainable by us plebes.

 

[mikea]

take the time to educate the youth of america...they are our future...

mike

 

[vindi C]

-

a world without guns would be wonderful (here come the retaliations).
AS LONG AS ALL guns were destroyed and none were left. Then no robber could attack your family as effectivly and you would be able to defend equally.

i beg to differ that guns are the great equalliser - you need to know how to use one. a 10 year old you picks one up off the ground defending agains an international terrorist?? guns do not make you equal.

i'll be quite happy to join your forum and participate in discussions if you'll have me.