Byron Quick
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I could easily be mistaken but I've always assumed that the 'four bore' and 'eight bore' double rifles once used in Africa were calibers based on the same system as the shotgun gauge. Right or wrong?
Real cowboys never used Colt 45's !!
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Old Dragoon
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Four Bore Refers to the Elephant guns but they were not rifles. I have personally(as well as all the other guys) fired a Birmingham Four Bore "Rifle" It was an Elephant gun but it was a smooth bore shot 200 Grn.s Bp and a .998 Dia Mini(???) ball that was almost 2 inches long. It was brought to a Rendvous in Okla. By Phil, "Bluejacket " Sanders back in the 70's we all had to shoot the biggest gun any of us had ever seen. 
The bruise on your shoulder was your "Badge" of courage to shoulder it and touch it off. We had a 3 foot dia. Gong set up 100 plus yds away and I'm proud to say I hit the gong(as well as others that did) but it took it's toll as some didn't realize that you had to "lean into it" as it were. Some tried from the one knee on the ground position and were knocked over. It had a heck of a kick, but it didn't knock me down (hurt like Heck, but you knew that goin' in), but I had shot a Birmingham Four Bore. Like to find one some day, not to shoot(that for a younger man these days) but just to have one.
Some of the "bore" guns may have been like a rifled Musket. but that was the extent of it. You didn't shoot an Elephant from 200 yards, it was more like 20-40 yds.
The bruise on your shoulder was your "Badge" of courage to shoulder it and touch it off. We had a 3 foot dia. Gong set up 100 plus yds away and I'm proud to say I hit the gong(as well as others that did) but it took it's toll as some didn't realize that you had to "lean into it" as it were. Some tried from the one knee on the ground position and were knocked over. It had a heck of a kick, but it didn't knock me down (hurt like Heck, but you knew that goin' in), but I had shot a Birmingham Four Bore. Like to find one some day, not to shoot(that for a younger man these days) but just to have one.
Some of the "bore" guns may have been like a rifled Musket. but that was the extent of it. You didn't shoot an Elephant from 200 yards, it was more like 20-40 yds.
Duncaninfrance
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Old Dragoon said:
And probably charging you!
" Smell it lady-i'm standing in it!!"
My grandfather had a punt and gun which he used to go wildfowling with in the upper reaches of the River Tagus above Lisbon. Will try and find a picture and details of it.
Duncan
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OleSarge, I wasn't aware of that. It seems that the things I have read about old Pancho shows that he was good at keeping lawmen at bay and scratching there heads while trying to figure out what his next move was.
Maybe Willy Nelsons song about Pancho was close to telling it like it was
Mike
Maybe Willy Nelsons song about Pancho was close to telling it like it was
MikeLow Key
Member
the guns that won the west...
There wasn’t any single gun that won the west, but it was a combination of many guns that made their own contributions. Both rifles and pistols were used and each played their unique part. It would seem that the cap n ball revolvers played a major part, and were in use by the people who carried pistols for a longer time frame than the colt “peacemaker”. Not to say that the Colt SAA didn’t play a part in the whole show, but by the time it became affordable to the common man most of the shooting was over.
Let’s say that the time frame we a talking about is 1850-1900 for the most part, and I know that could be extended further both before 1850 and after 1900. By 1850 the Patterson was in use, (whether widespread or not I don’t know) and also the Dragoons were in play in the west. During the 1850s and 1860s the various open top Colts and the full framed Remington’s came onto the market and it seems they were very popular.
I’m sure that all these models were used in some form during the civil war and remaining popular afterwards with the general public and with soldiers who had been involved. James Butler (Wild Bill) Hickok fought in the civil war and afterwards held onto his 1851 Navies when he went west. It is said that after he became a “living legend” he owned many guns, cartridge revolvers included, but seemed to prefer the cap and ball 51’s and those were his primary carry weapons. Jesse and Frank James, who fought as guerrilla fighters in the civil war, are said to have preferred the 1858 Remington as their primary pistol and continued to carry and use them after the war when they turned to bank and train robbing as their main source of income. Elmer Keith learned about cap and ball revolvers from some of the old soldiers who fought in the civil war, and began carrying a .36 colt, (an original 51 navy I think) at an early age.
By the time the SAA was produced in 1873, (midway through our given time frame), cap and ball sixguns had been in use for more than 25 years and had filtered through all levels of society. After the civil war many soldiers had purchased their revolvers to keep after their service ended. Prices on the older models would have come down and many would have been resold, so the cap and ball guns were more affordable to the average joe. The SAA, like most revolvers even now, was expensive to purchase brand new and therefore out of reach for most people. Of course those who had money to spend on such things could easily aquire one, but they most likely were for show or for target practice and not in general use on “the front lines” so to speak. By the time that the SAA would have had time to filter into the hands of the majority of the populace, the major period of “winning the west” would have for the most part ended.
This is just a very basic understanding of the time frame that I have gained from various sources, and I’m sure there are those in here who know much more about this subject than myself. I’m sure that the SAA made it’s own contribution and it is obviously a well designed and sturdy pistol and still a very popular design even today. I think that Hollywood has made a major use of the SAA in a lot of films simply because it was a convenient gun to use, it was easily and quickly loaded and obviously it looks good in the hand. But most people don’t want to watch the hero in the movie take 2-3 minutes to reload his c&b so enter the SAA to fill the gap, even if a lot of its portrayals are historically inaccurate.
There wasn’t any single gun that won the west, but it was a combination of many guns that made their own contributions. Both rifles and pistols were used and each played their unique part. It would seem that the cap n ball revolvers played a major part, and were in use by the people who carried pistols for a longer time frame than the colt “peacemaker”. Not to say that the Colt SAA didn’t play a part in the whole show, but by the time it became affordable to the common man most of the shooting was over.
Let’s say that the time frame we a talking about is 1850-1900 for the most part, and I know that could be extended further both before 1850 and after 1900. By 1850 the Patterson was in use, (whether widespread or not I don’t know) and also the Dragoons were in play in the west. During the 1850s and 1860s the various open top Colts and the full framed Remington’s came onto the market and it seems they were very popular.
I’m sure that all these models were used in some form during the civil war and remaining popular afterwards with the general public and with soldiers who had been involved. James Butler (Wild Bill) Hickok fought in the civil war and afterwards held onto his 1851 Navies when he went west. It is said that after he became a “living legend” he owned many guns, cartridge revolvers included, but seemed to prefer the cap and ball 51’s and those were his primary carry weapons. Jesse and Frank James, who fought as guerrilla fighters in the civil war, are said to have preferred the 1858 Remington as their primary pistol and continued to carry and use them after the war when they turned to bank and train robbing as their main source of income. Elmer Keith learned about cap and ball revolvers from some of the old soldiers who fought in the civil war, and began carrying a .36 colt, (an original 51 navy I think) at an early age.
By the time the SAA was produced in 1873, (midway through our given time frame), cap and ball sixguns had been in use for more than 25 years and had filtered through all levels of society. After the civil war many soldiers had purchased their revolvers to keep after their service ended. Prices on the older models would have come down and many would have been resold, so the cap and ball guns were more affordable to the average joe. The SAA, like most revolvers even now, was expensive to purchase brand new and therefore out of reach for most people. Of course those who had money to spend on such things could easily aquire one, but they most likely were for show or for target practice and not in general use on “the front lines” so to speak. By the time that the SAA would have had time to filter into the hands of the majority of the populace, the major period of “winning the west” would have for the most part ended.
This is just a very basic understanding of the time frame that I have gained from various sources, and I’m sure there are those in here who know much more about this subject than myself. I’m sure that the SAA made it’s own contribution and it is obviously a well designed and sturdy pistol and still a very popular design even today. I think that Hollywood has made a major use of the SAA in a lot of films simply because it was a convenient gun to use, it was easily and quickly loaded and obviously it looks good in the hand. But most people don’t want to watch the hero in the movie take 2-3 minutes to reload his c&b so enter the SAA to fill the gap, even if a lot of its portrayals are historically inaccurate.
Old Dragoon
Member
There is a picture of a Colt patterson in Bruce McDowells Cartridge Conversion Book that was converted to cartridge when it was over 30 years old! Mc Dowell states the age of the pistol but I don't remember the exact age at conversion. I have the page and chapter, but I need to look it up as i don't have the book within my grasp as I sit here. Yes C & B pistols were used for a mighty long time even after cartridge guns were being produced, and they were being converted at the same time period also. Colt 45 has it's place but so do ALL of the other guns that were used.
The wierdest conversion I have seen was a Savage Navy converted to 38 CF
The wierdest conversion I have seen was a Savage Navy converted to 38 CF
Beartracker said:OleSarge, I wasn't aware of that. It seems that the things I have read about old Pancho shows that he was good at keeping lawmen at bay and scratching there heads while trying to figure out what his next move was.
Maybe Willy Nelsons song about Pancho was close to telling it like it was
Damn good tune and only Willie i like!
Low Key said:There wasn’t any single gun that won the west, but it was
By the time the SAA was produced in 1873, (midway through our given time But most people don’t want to watch the hero in the movie take 2-3 minutes to reload his c&b so enter the SAA to fill the gap, even if a lot of its portrayals are historically inaccurate.
Hence the "Deadwood Reload"!!! Ya gotta know these guys carried a few! And so does MANYIRONS!
Father Knows Best
Member
Low Key said:
Unless it's Clint in High Plains Drifter pulling extra cylinders out of his belt and swapping them into his Remington New Model Army....
Father Knows Best
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Old Dragoon said:
Old Dragoon makes an excellent point. Even once metallic cartridges became commonplace with the expiration of the Rollin White patent on bored-through cylinders, there were probably a lot more converted cap-and-ball guns on the frontier than factory cartridge revolvers. Thanks to the civil war, Colt and Remington cap and ball revolvers were plentiful and cheap. A decent gunsmith could convert one of them to use cartridges for a lot less than the cost of a new Colt Peacemaker or Smith & Wesson No. 3, even when you factor in the cost of the used cap and ball revolver. Quite a few patents were issued just on conversion methods, in fact, with the most famous being the Richards and Richards-Mason methods for converting Colt cap and ball revolvers to use cartridges.
Old Dragoon
Member
I used to collect Conversions(and I still do when I can get the bucks), and everything I have seen or read, there were a lot of gunsmith/blacksmith conversions done at the time of Rollin White's invention and patent on a onesy and twosy type arrangement. Conversions on the frontier were hard to confirm or prosecute, the big companies even tried everything they could to get around old Rollin's patent. some did so very cleverly, and some got taken to court. Yes all Heck broke loose when Rollin's patent expired. then everyone was converting C & B revolvers in several different calibers,Rimfire and Center Fire. They also were able to produce drilled through cylinders without fear. All the companies could make them legally. That didn't stop the conversion process, but added to it. Fascinating time period in history and that is why I chose to collect conversions.
MCgunner
Member
Father Knows Best said:
Pale Rider, actually, but close, same story line basically. In early western movies, I assume they were shooting autoloaders, or maybe the revolver pictured below, because they never seem to ever have to reload, just keep on shootin'!
How about the movie "Sons of Katy Elder". One of the sons had a mauser broom handle. That was a cool movie. I reckon it was no gun that settled the west, though, but men and women with guts and grit. The guns were the tools. At the time of the Texas revolution, it was flintlock Kentucky rifles.
Father Knows Best
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Doh! Wrong movie, but you knew the scene I was referring to. I love that scene.... 
Duncaninfrance
Member
I thought John Wayne won the west 
Duncan
Duncan
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Duccan, John never settled the west but he did run the Brittish out of here,HA!!!
How's your weather over there? It's cold here in the south east of the states but summer not far away. Shot my Colt 51 this morning and it was so cold the black smoke cloud just froze in the air and stayed there! Mike
How's your weather over there? It's cold here in the south east of the states but summer not far away. Shot my Colt 51 this morning and it was so cold the black smoke cloud just froze in the air and stayed there!
MikeMCgunner
Member
Father Knows Best said:Doh! Wrong movie, but you knew the scene I was referring to. I love that scene....
I got it on tape, watched it a bazillion times.
My favorite scene is when Megan is reading from Revelations and reads "the fourth beast rode a white horse and he who sat on him was death" and Clint Eastwood rides into view in the window in a white horse. I really, really wanted a colt pocket .31 after seeing that movie. But, Gander Mountain had .31 pocket remingtons on sale about that time and I bought one.
The term "gauge" and "bore" are identical measures but according to at least one source I have read, "gauge" was applied exclusively to smoothbore/shotguns while "bore" was applied exclusively to solid projectile/rifled guns.
I have been unable to locate the cite, and it appears that even if this was once true, the two terms have been used (whether correctly or incorrectly) as if they were interchangeable for so long that it is probably impossible to get the cat back into the bag at this point.
Elmer Keith liked ball projectiles and his writings seem to indicate that they had a more impressive terminal effect (on humans) than a conventional lead bullet.
Duncaninfrance
Member
Beartracker said:Duccan, John never settled the west but he did run the Brittish out of here,HA!!!
How's your weather over there? It's cold here in the south east of the states but summer not far away. Shot my Colt 51 this morning and it was so cold the black smoke cloud just froze in the air and stayed there!
Weather is cold, bit of sun but dry. Wind has gone round to SW so that's why it is warmer. 48deg F at the moment.
As for your frozen smoke - I suppose you can also plait fog and nail mercury to a ceiling - get out of here Mike!!
Duncan
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Duncan, LOL, The best one was when I kicked a rabbit out of his warm bed under some brush and when I shot at him he dropped dead right on the spot! When I went over to pick him up he was stiff as a board and no bullet holes. He froze to death on the first jump out of his bed! Now that's cold
The best one was when I kicked a rabbit out of his warm bed under some brush and when I shot at him he dropped dead right on the spot! When I went over to pick him up he was stiff as a board and no bullet holes. He froze to death on the first jump out of his bed! Now that's cold Old Dragoon
Member
And when he tried to cook the rabbit he almost died of starvation because the fire froze and the rabbit never cooked.
Oh! we don't plait fog we cut it with a knife. The last time BT nailed the Mercury to the garage door his dad got mad cauze he couldn't drive it to the store.
Oh! we don't plait fog we cut it with a knife. The last time BT nailed the Mercury to the garage door his dad got mad cauze he couldn't drive it to the store.
Duncaninfrance
Member
Old Dragoon said:And when he tried to cook the rabbit he almost died of starvation because the fire froze and the rabbit never cooked.
And I know about the guy who skinned a polar bear and it had a brown stain on the pelt. When he laid it in front of the fire as a hearth rug it went Thuzzzzzzzzzzzz!
Duncan
Father Knows Best
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JohnKSa said:
I'm not familiar with those writings (I know Elmer Keith, but not that particular article). I don't see how a round ball could have a more impressive terminal effect than a conical or cylindrical bullet, assuming the same caliber and velocity. After all, the ball will be quite a bit lighter. If he was comparing projectiles with the same amount of propellant behind them, then perhaps that makes sense because the lighter ball would be expected to have much higher velocity.
Steve499
Member
Old Dragoon, I know you lived in K.C. Mo. for a while. Did you ever get to Carthage to the civil war museum there? They have an 1860 Colt army on display which has been converted to fire cartridges. Apparently the people who accumulated items for exhibit didn't know, or didn't care, that conversions of that kind weren't happening when the battle of Carthage occurred. There isn't any history posted with the converted Colt so one can only speculate how it got into the museum. It is behind glass with the right side against the wall so you can't see the loading cut but appears to have no ejector.
Steve
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