Reality and the power of handguns

[brownie0486]

So, the solution is..Practice often, make sure to know where to shoot to have the best effect on stopping someone, and SHOOT TO SLIDELOCK, SHOOT TO SLIDELOCK..and oh yeah..SHOOT TO SLIDELOCK.

In a dynamicly developing street encounter, and likely everyone moving with handguns used, you'll be hard pressed to actually keep em [ the bullets ], anywhere but somewhere into COM.

As to shooting to slidelock, it could be hard explaining putting 17 rds from the g17 into anyone to the responding officers. It would require the perp to still be a threat for all 17 rds, unlikely.

Brownie

 

[Kontiki]

Just to play devil's advocate...If handguns are incapable of putting a subject down, and most people are unable to hit what they're aiming at...what is the point of guns/ccw anyway?

 

[meef]

So, the solution is..Practice often, make sure to know where to shoot to have the best effect on stopping someone, and SHOOT TO SLIDELOCK, SHOOT TO SLIDELOCK..and oh yeah..SHOOT TO SLIDELOCK.

Likely in performing such a feat, you will have made your local Prosecutor orgasmically happy as he/she merrily ponders on the best way to present to the jury what a bloodthirsty, murderous, misbegotten excuse for a human you in fact are.

And the chances are better than even that the jury will in fact buy it.

 

[brownie0486]

Kontiki;

If handguns are incapable of putting a subject down

What gives you that idea. People are put down everyday with handguns.

and most people are unable to hit what they're aiming at..

Thats more a TRAINING issue, along with a multitude of other factors which can't be known until a particular event ocurrs.

Most people do not train/pratice enough to become VERY proficient with their handguns, many more do not practice the correct skills sets which will likely be used when it happens to them, and still others don't understand that making nice tight groups on paper is not the skills that will keep you alive when it happens to them in the majority of SD situations.

Brownie

 

[kengrubb]

If handguns are incapable of putting a subject down, and most people are unable to hit what they're aiming at...what is the point of guns/ccw anyway?

The handgun is the primary weapon for defense against unexpected attack. Nevertheless, a majority of shootings occur in manners and circumstances in which the officer either does not have any other weapon available, or cannot get to it. The handgun must be relied upon, and must prevail. Given the idea that one or two torso hits can be reasonably expected in a handgun shooting incident, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation.

FBI Academy
Firearms Training Unit
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[BullfrogKen]

CDignition said: SHOOT TO SLIDELOCK, SHOOT TO SLIDELOCK..and oh yeah..SHOOT TO SLIDELOCK.

Shoot to stop.

 

[johnster999]

I'd speculate that the effect of any gunshot against any person from any gun would be exactly equal to:

1) what structures inside the body were damaged by the bullet passing through
2) how badly those structures were damaged
3) how the person reacts to being shot.

 

[redneck2]

To answer the question about rifles vs handguns...

I saw a special on Discovery about terrorist organizations. They bombed a car in Germany. Used a backpack on a bicycle to hold a bomb that had a sheet of copper. Target car was heavily armored against bullets. The sheet of copper blew thru the car (as in totally thru) and killed everyone inside.

It's about physics. IIRC the copper sheet was doing 9,000fps. Speed kills.

If you think a .45 acp @ 900fps even approaches a .223, you've never hunted very much.

As for knockdown and stopping power, my son-in-law shot a 150# buck this week with a 12 gauge 1 oz. slug. Blew thru the top of the heart and took out the lungs. Still went 80 yards.

Total pass-thru. 70 caliber.

 

[LightningJoe]

Guns work well almost all the time despite the fact that they rarely produce mechanical incapacitation. There's an obvious explanation. All this stuff about foot-pounds and expansion overlooks 95% of what's going on when handguns are used for self-defense. Hint: you're (usually) shooting at somebody who's familiar with the handgun's reputation as a weapon capable of inflicting mortal injuries, who is aware of his own mortality, and whose motivation for attacking you can be affected by wounds.

 

[benelli12]

no handgun or shotgun or rifle under the .50cal, will stop a human 100% of the time, your expecting to much of the bullet. Shotguns and rifles are almost always more effective than handguns, that does not mean handguns are worthless. Bullets do crazy things, but you can't expect the target to explode after being hit with a piece of lead the size of a marble, going under or around the speed of sound. Handguns will always be second to a long gun, but they are still guns.

 

[kengrubb]

I saw a special on Discovery about terrorist organizations. They bombed a car in Germany. Used a backpack on a bicycle to hold a bomb that had a sheet of copper. Target car was heavily armored against bullets. The sheet of copper blew thru the car (as in totally thru) and killed everyone inside.

The Alfred Herrhausen murder.
Device was a Misznay-Schardin mechanism.
44 pounds of TNT will ruin your day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misznay-Schardin_effect

 

[LightningJoe]

I don't recommend carrying less than 45 pounds of TNT. 9 pound "mousebombs" don't perform well on highly agitated attackers or ones hopped up on PCP, etc.

 

[razorburn]

Uh-uh. If it worked that way, you couldn't shoot firearms without killing yourself. The equal-and-opposite factor is momentum, not energy. Most of the energy from the propellant dumps into the lighter bullet, not the heavier gun/shooter.
(And, as the projectile gets heavier and/or the gun gets lighter, a bigger proportion of the energy transfers out the back end. That's why really light, really powerful guns are impractical.)

No, it's force, not momentum. Force is the first derivative of momentum with respect to time, but not momentum itself. It's the rate of change of momentum.

 

[LightningJoe]

Conservation of force?

 

[razorburn]

No. It's just newtons 3rd law. There's a conservation of momentum, which is newtons 1st law about inertia, and conservation of energy, which is the 1st law of thermodynamics. But the equal and opposite thing people are talking about is newtons 3rd law, and it pertains to force and not momentum. Actually, on further thought since force is the derivative of momentum, then momentum is the integral of force, so if the forces are equal, then momentum would be too.
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/newton3laws.html

 

[mdao]

I have never seen the results of a hollow point .45 on a human that is 10 yards or less away. But, historically, it was supposed to stop a charging Moro that had wrapped his torso in leather and then poured water and allowed the wrap to shrink prior to charging.

I would like someone with actual experience to tell me if a BG is hit left or right of center with an expanding .45 will continue forward, or will he be spun around? Will it stop his forward progress?

Quick physics example:

Say you had a mad 180 pound, machete wielding Moro islander charging at you at a leisurely 15 miles/hour. You take your trusty Grease Gun and dump 30 rounds of 230 gr. @ 900 ft/s .45 ACP JHP at him. All bullets hit and expand, but due to his thick leather armor, no rounds perforate the target.

Conservation of momentum says the guy will still be moving towards you at 11.5 miles/hour after your mag is empty. So no, it won't stop the guy's forward progress.

To physically stop the guy's progress, he would need to be hit with ~ 129 .45 ACP JHPs. Not that there'd be much left at that point.

 

[CDignition]

Ok, Ill re Examine the issue.. SHOOT TILL YOUR GUN IS EMPTY.... SHOOT TILL YOUR GUN IS EMPTY... SHOOT TILL YOUR GUN IS EMPTY..

Nuff Said,lol..

 

[givo08]

Handguns are extremely effective fight-stoppers, but not because they can inflict mechanically-incapacitating injuries. Their immediate effects are mainly psychological rather than physical.


Fear and demoralization are the handgun's principal incapacitation mechanisms. If your opponent does not fear your gun and is not demoralized by injuries inflicted by your gun, stopping him will require shot placement that would best be described as serendipitous.

I have sometimes wondered if the .357 mag developed such a reputation for "stopping power" due to the psychological impact of the sound and muzzle blast on the person on the receiving end.

 

[Jeff White]

Handguns are extremely effective fight-stoppers, but not because they can inflict mechanically-incapacitating injuries. Their immediate effects are mainly psychological rather than physical.


Fear and demoralization are the handgun's principal incapacitation mechanisms. If your opponent does not fear your gun and is not demoralized by injuries inflicted by your gun, stopping him will require shot placement that would best be described as serendipitous.

I would guess that anyone who believes this has never had contact with an emotionally disturbed person or someone who was too intoxicated on legal or illegal substances to reason with.

I have sometimes wondered if the .357 mag developed such a reputation for "stopping power" due to the psychological impact of the sound and muzzle blast on the person on the receiving end.

Most people, even firearms enthusists who routinely indentify guns in movie and television scenes are unable to give much of a description of a gun they were threatened with. I wouldn't bet my life on the psychological impact or the weapon I was carrying.

Jeff

 

[ndh87]

yes...the only one professional enough..... :banghead:

 

[rwc]

FWIW - I took a deer last week with a .308 at ~115 yds. The bullet broke one rib entering, chewed up the lungs and heart, then broke two ribs and the scapula before exiting. It also left a hematoma on the far-side shoulder meat a couple inches in diameter (hole+lacerated meat). I've not hunted with a handgun and don't have a baseline for comparison.

Any handgun hunters out there want to weigh-in on relative downrange consequences of, say a .357 magnum to a .308WIN?

 

[gyp_c2]

hmm...

The ONLY reason a Moro dropped was from perforation...Bigger slug=bigger hole...

The 45 SA was pressed into action as a response to pleas for something to replace the 38 Long Colt. They were revolvers...Single action 45 and double action 38...I think the savages are getting mixed up here...

 

[Ivy Mike]

I thought the Marines adopted the 1911 because it would stop the forward progress of a drugged and mind dead Moro.

They didn't adopt the 1911 because it would stop a drugged Moro. They adopted it because the .38 they had, wouldn't. The old .38 Long Colt didn't have the oomph that the military wanted, hence the adoption of the 1911 and the .45ACP

Its not because the .45 is some magical killer, it simply performs better than the cartridge they were using previously.

 

[mbs357]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU

This is the first time I've noticed, but just after the ND he calls it an AD.
Moar liek ADD.