What is too much coffee?
I find if I shoot in the evening after work, I shoot poorly compared to early Saturday or Sunday. I drink a thermos of coffee while shooting. It may hurt my groups.
Reloads inconsistency?
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I find if I shoot in the evening after work, I shoot poorly compared to early Saturday or Sunday. I drink a thermos of coffee while shooting. It may hurt my groups.
I had a couple high caffeine content energy drinks this morning and it gave me a 1moa or so shake. I consume a ton of caffeine too lol.
JFrank
Member
How many rounds are on the barrel
400-500
Ej3
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- May 6, 2017
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I read this and realized I am an internet Commando:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/The_Trouble_With_3_Shot_Groups/118-279218/
JFrank
Member
That’s about the perfect round count for a carbon ring,
Scrub with Bore Tech C-4 or ISSO paste and report back
I use the eliminator and ran a nylon brush through it 6 times tonight and several wet patches and dry patches. I’ll load up 10 of each tomorrow and see how it goes.
JFrank
Member
I’ve used a .45 cal bronze brush right in the chamber in a circular motion as well as a 6 mm bronze, c-4 finally got it.
What a bear
I’ll order some this week. Thanks for the help. I fired 3-3 shot groups with H332 tonight and it didn’t do too bad.
JFrank
Member
Sounds good ,
I’m happy to contribute in any way I can.
Shoot Small
J
I’m happy to contribute in any way I can.
Shoot Small
J
CptnAwesome
Member
I find more consistency with my Lee beam scale. Could shoot .5"-.75" consistently with my 6.5 CM. Not saying this is your problem, but I bought a Hornady digital scale to double check every load. The moment I started using that scale my groups opened up and got kind of erratic. Followed all procedures as far as letting it warm up, keeping electronics away from the scale etc. Got kind of frustrating...
Went back to beam scale only and my groups got back to being consistent like before. In scratching my head on that one
Went back to beam scale only and my groups got back to being consistent like before. In scratching my head on that one
troy fairweather
Member
Some of the scales don't like when you trickle the powder. They will read fine if you just dump the hole charge in. My hornady will be off over a grain after about 20 loads.
LiveLife
Member
That's why regardless of scale, you should always use check weights in the powder charge range you are using to verify the accuracy of your scale.
I think it's a load sensor sensitivity issue. I think a particular units assembly can make a difference also.
My little Hornady is actually very consistent, both with heavy drops and with trickling. I do need to pause for a few seconds to let the scale settle, and the logic to decide it it's going to round the weight.
I've checked this scale against our very accurate and precise microgram scales at my old job, and it was surprisingly consistent for a 20 dollar unit.
My little Hornady is actually very consistent, both with heavy drops and with trickling. I do need to pause for a few seconds to let the scale settle, and the logic to decide it it's going to round the weight.
I've checked this scale against our very accurate and precise microgram scales at my old job, and it was surprisingly consistent for a 20 dollar unit.
LiveLife
Member
In addition to two Ohaus 10-10s and RCBS 5-0-5 beam scales, I have three "cheap" $20 range digital scales and some have even higher resolution and accuracy/repeatability than .1 gr resolution beam scales. Gemini-20 will verify check weights down to .04 gr.
RCBS and Ohaus ASTM Class 6 check weights
troy fairweather
Member
I have not had to much to load, need to shoot more lol. But now I have the ohaus 10-10 the more scales the better. The thing i hate the most about the hornady i have. It's nearly impossible to not tip the scale some when pushing the tare button. I am thinking off gluing it to a peace of wood, and cut a hole to replace the batteries.
I've had the Gem-20 and the FA, ended up giving both away, but they worked very well also.In addition to two Ohaus 10-10s and RCBS 5-0-5 beam scales, I have three "cheap" $20 range digital scales and some have even higher resolution and accuracy/repeatability than .1 gr resolution beam scales. Gemini-20 will verify check weights down to .04 gr.
RCBS and Ohaus ASTM Class 6 check weights
I also had a 505 and and a Lee safety, and both were consistent enough for my uses but the electronics are less finiky about being level in my experience, and I'm rarely level lol.
The loads I weighed out on our analytical balances were more accurate and precise than what I got from my little electronic balances, but didn't shoot any more accurately. Perhaps tho my delivery equipment and technique (and perhaps loads) are the weak link at that point lol.
Ya know I've still got a box of 7mm rounds I weighed out on a lab balance.....I haven't shot those in my new 7mm. Might have to try another comparison.
LiveLife
Member
There are many reloading variables and powder charge is one of them.
And there is shooter input.
NATO Reloading
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variable neck tension is a big factor in group size.
Nature Boy
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- Apr 21, 2015
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Gremlins I call them. Nasty little beasties that infect all things with moving parts. The more complex the system, the better the chance for one of these little buggers to gnaw on something and jam a proverbial gear. A modern rifle, optics, and ammunition is a rather complex system of chemical and kinetic reactions, and there are many habitats for gremlins. Best practices towards consistency of the system can mitigate their damage, but they are still there waiting for a lapse in QC, good old fashioned entropy, or a seemingly insignificant change to give them succor.
Many shooters read too many online articles, forums and old fashioned paper rags on extreme accuracy. Many shooters sugar coat their grouping capabilities on said medias. This leads many shooters to allow the pursuit of perfection to be the enemy of the sufficient.
I shoot NRA high power, CMP matches and I hunt big game. I would be ecstatic to have a rifle consistently group under 1" at 100 yards across 10 rounds. In the real world, with service rifles or hunting rifles, about 1- 1.5MOA range is the best I've seen reproducible. I consider smaller groups in smaller numbers of shots to be outliers, and useful to narrow down options for further testing, nothing more. Over the years, I have found loads for most of my rifles that will maintain 2MOA or better across a range of atmospheric conditions and will usually hold this standard with a lot change in a component. This is good enough for my purposes, and since I also like to have money in my bank account and do things other than load and test ammo, this is where I stop.
Cloverleafs are fun, but I don't chase them into black holes.
Here's a real world example. Not my target or rifle, but submitted in the match I'm hosting as an unofficial "look at this". This is a tuned BR or F-class rifle. It is BUILT. Target courtesy of Nature Boy. 10 shots in aprox .9 MOA at 200 yards. This is about as good as it gets. If you're chasing a higher standard consistently, you better have the money, time, gear, and money to chase it (money intentionally mentioned twice).
That horizontal dispersion is something I’ve been fighting for months. Suspected that the ears on my rear bag weren’t as firm as they should be and that was causing some variation. Added some sand and just that little change netted this result
Sometimes it’s not the load
LiveLife
Member
Yes, it's not the "finished" OAL rather "chambered" OAL after any bullet setback from bullet nose bumping the feed ramp that will determine the holes on target - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4
Yes, I agree and why I replaced the collapsible stock on my JR carbine with fixed stock.
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lightman
Member
Like the others have said, it can be many things. Even a combination of things.
The shooter---Some days you are in the groove, some days you're not. A restless night, a stressful day at work, too much caffeine, sinus problems, a head cold, ect. Any of those things can effect your shooting. Sometimes you mis a condition. A change in wind speed or direction.
The barrel----Sometimes a barrel gets an odd bit of fouling. Maybe a crown problem. Maybe a bedding problem. I scrub my barrels with a bore mop and some Losso right ahead of the chamber and for a few inches. I've also invested in a good one piece cleaning rod, a bore guide, I buy bore brushes by the dozen, patches in packages of 500 or 1000 and a good strong copper solvent.
The ammo----There has been a lot of argument about concentricity. But a bullet seated crooked is going to land outside of the group. The weight and length of the bullet needs to be compatible with the twist rate and velocity. The powder also needs to be compatible with the bullet weight and case capacity.
The equipment----Like Nature Boy posted, the bag and the rest. Don't forget the target stand. If it moves in the wind its going to hurt your groups. Is the bench and the seat comfortable? Are they stable?
The surrounding conditions----Are you shooting alone or are you surrounded by other shooters? A shooter near you can cause you to flinch. Are other shooters or bystanders walking around the firing line? Airline traffic overhead? A train track near by?
Your scope----Have you tried another scope? Have you checked the rings and bases for tightness?
These are some of the things that I have seen or experienced. A flyer can cause you to scratch your head, chase your tail and shake up your confidence. Good Luck finding the problem.
The shooter---Some days you are in the groove, some days you're not. A restless night, a stressful day at work, too much caffeine, sinus problems, a head cold, ect. Any of those things can effect your shooting. Sometimes you mis a condition. A change in wind speed or direction.
The barrel----Sometimes a barrel gets an odd bit of fouling. Maybe a crown problem. Maybe a bedding problem. I scrub my barrels with a bore mop and some Losso right ahead of the chamber and for a few inches. I've also invested in a good one piece cleaning rod, a bore guide, I buy bore brushes by the dozen, patches in packages of 500 or 1000 and a good strong copper solvent.
The ammo----There has been a lot of argument about concentricity. But a bullet seated crooked is going to land outside of the group. The weight and length of the bullet needs to be compatible with the twist rate and velocity. The powder also needs to be compatible with the bullet weight and case capacity.
The equipment----Like Nature Boy posted, the bag and the rest. Don't forget the target stand. If it moves in the wind its going to hurt your groups. Is the bench and the seat comfortable? Are they stable?
The surrounding conditions----Are you shooting alone or are you surrounded by other shooters? A shooter near you can cause you to flinch. Are other shooters or bystanders walking around the firing line? Airline traffic overhead? A train track near by?
Your scope----Have you tried another scope? Have you checked the rings and bases for tightness?
These are some of the things that I have seen or experienced. A flyer can cause you to scratch your head, chase your tail and shake up your confidence. Good Luck finding the problem.
Okay, I cleaned the rifle with Boretech Eliminator and loaded up 5 more at the same charge of 24.6gr of H335 with a CCI450 primer, same year LC brass, all charges trickled. I even ventured to 25gr by 2/10 of a grain (yes, I know 25.3 is max) and this load shot a hair better. The 24.6 didn't shoot as well as it previously did. I then said okay, I'm done! I loaded 5 of the same bullet with Benchmark, but different year LC brass and it did the pic below. I am guessing its the powder or cases? To go from shooting good to shooting great with H335 then terrible and then great with Benchmark I'm still racking my brain.
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