inconsistant reloads-rifle?

[Axis II]

I am going to pull every last hair out of my head messing with these reloads. My 44mag handi rifle will shoot 3-4 shots all clover leafing and then 5 will throw high or low or wherever then 6-7 are good and 8-9 might throw all over too and ive had others shoot this rifle just so I know its not me.

I weigh each charge and trickle to what I want and weigh again and dump and seat the bullet and crimp each round at the end.

is it just nature of the beast with 44mag or what??

imr4227, cci LPP mag, starline brass all same length. 240gr xtp.

 

[Reloadron]

Time between shots?
Type of crimp? The only crimp I ever apply to 44 Remington Magnum is a roll crimp with uniform brass.

Ron

 

[Axis II]

Time between shots?
Type of crimp? The only crimp I ever apply to 44 Remington Magnum is a roll crimp with uniform brass.

Ron

Hey Ron

Its a roll crimp. I set my lee seat die up per instructions and then turn 2 full turns in to crimp. 2 turns gets me crimp anything less doesn't. I have good neck tension too as I just flare enough to let the bullet slide in.

time between shots is 4-6 seconds. the barrel doesn't get hot at all. should I wait longer?

 

[Reloadron]

Just unusual. No it is not common with 44 Mag rifle. My little old Ruger 44 carbine while not a tack driving target rifle will generally get 4 rounds into a 3" group at 100 yards. Then too, it only holds four rounds. Since others get the same results we can remove you from the equation. The brass you are using is good quality brass. Long as the barrel remains cool I see no reason to wait longer.

My 44mag handi rifle will shoot 3-4 shots all clover leafing and then 5 will throw high or low or wherever then 6-7 are good and 8-9 might throw all over too and ive had others shoot this rifle just so I know its not me.

For hunting we really only care about the first maybe 3 shots being on target, if that. It's just unusual the way the rifle is behaving especially considering . After the holidays if you want some 44 Magnum brass shoot me a reminder. Years ago I had a bucket of the stuff and while I do shoot 44 Magnum I had more than I will ever need.

Ron

 

[Blue68f100]

May want to check the bullet size (dia). If the pill is too small it will play havoc on accuracy. You may have a box of bullets where some are undersized. I've run into this before. If your not expanding to the same internal ID, different wall thickness will give a big swing in neck tension. Have you run your loads through a crony? This may give you a indication.

 

[Axis II]

Just unusual. No it is not common with 44 Mag rifle. My little old Ruger 44 carbine while not a tack driving target rifle will generally get 4 rounds into a 3" group at 100 yards. Then too, it only holds four rounds. Since others get the same results we can remove you from the equation. The brass you are using is good quality brass. Long as the barrel remains cool I see no reason to wait longer.



For hunting we really only care about the first maybe 3 shots being on target, if that. It's just unusual the way the rifle is behaving especially considering . After the holidays if you want some 44 Magnum brass shoot me a reminder. Years ago I had a bucket of the stuff and while I do shoot 44 Magnum I had more than I will ever need.

Ron

I have a couple hundred 44 starline cases midway had them for like $18-100 so I should be good. thanks. I might take you up on it if I get my handgun I want.

I get the first shot counts but what I'm worried about is it being the reload and say that first shot is the one that is goofy and decides to fly. today I shot 6 shot group to get on paper and threw 2 to get me on bull and 3-4 touched each other right in the center of the bull but 5-6 was about 2 inches or so different. its all minute of deer groups but my brother will be using the rifle and hes not the best shot. I could pull it off with a 2-3 inch difference but I want to make sure hes got precision so it doesn't screw him up very well.

 

[Sunray]

Far more likely you're shooting too fast(3 or 4 seconds is too fast.) and the barrel is heating up(after 9 shots in roughly half a minute, the barrel is hot), than the load. Clover leaf groups out of a cold barrel attest to that.
Plus there will be a tendency to jerk the trigger even on a single shot.

 

[Reloadron]

Per Blue68f100 you can look close at your bullets, we know the brass is new. IMR 4227 is also one of the most common 44 Magnum powders out there so it's not how full the cases are or a powder issue. Frustrating!

Ron

 

[Axis II]

ill try slowing down the rate of fire and see what happens.

 

[Reloadron]

Post back on how that works out for you.

Ron

 

[Axis II]

With the barrel not being warm to the touch and 44 not being a fast round like my 223 I figured it was fine but I guess not. Will report back today

 

[9mmepiphany]

...time between shots is 4-6 seconds. the barrel doesn't get hot at all. should I wait longer?

Try waiting at least twice as long between shots...call it 15-20 seconds

 

[Axis II]

well I went to the range to see if waiting longer would work better and they are having a ccw class the day before gun season! this is a dedicated hunt club too. we will be hunting Monday-Sunday so looks like ill have to deal with the 2-3 inch group. my first 2 hit each other right in the orange ring on the right on the center bull and the other 2 hit about 2.5-3 inches away from each other top of the orange circle and bottom of the orange bull ring.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/712957/burris-target-12-x-12-pack-of-10

 

[beefyz]

"I am going to pull every last hair out of my head messing with these reloads.... 6-7 are good and 2-3 might throw all over.....I weigh each charge and trickle to what I want and weigh again and dump and seat the bullet and crimp each round at the end......is it just nature of the beast"

I really empathize with you as i've said the same thing far to often. Reloaded now & then first 30 yrs as too busy working but these last 10 yrs in retirement carefully & earnestly got back into reloading but at times experiencing the same frustrations as you. Why ? We're older now and the eyes ain't what they used to be? I dunno ? I'm not a schmuck, i don't drink or watch tv while reloading seeing John Wayne running up Suribachi or have anything else to distract me, and i take my time. I used to just weigh the first few charges, and then drop the next 8-10, and re-weigh. I 'd get the above. Now i often weigh every charge.... and still get the occasional flyers. If it wasn't for the fact that its a hobby and i enjoy it and it lets me shoot on the cheap all day if i want to, i'd give it up because i just can't seem to come home really feeling good as to what i reloaded and shot. Or, even worse. i'll have some real fine results with 1 particular load, and then come back the next week to shoot that same load and its terrible. Why ? Must be me. Maybe this reloading thing isn't all its cranked up to be. At the range i see guys shooting factory $45 / box Winchester '06 ammo and they ain't doing much better than i am. I'd love to sit down with a so-called expert to critique my skills as i originally was from a city and had no one to teach me.

 

[macgrumpy]

What is the powder charge weight and OAL? Your issue might be copper fouling buildup caused by too high of muzzle velocities for your bullet.

.22 competition shooters are familiar with the same phenomenon, the first few shots are grouped tight, suddenly a flyer or two appear and then the next few rounds go back in to the original group. In the case of a .22 cartridge, it's not unusual for the rifle's barrel to pickup fouling as the first few rounds are fired. That fouling is pulled/cleared out as each bullet passes down the bore but when the fouling becomes bad enough it (the fouling) will start to curl and leave little lumps of lead or copper here and there. Eventually there are enough of these lumps of fouling that a bullet will plow through them those deposits will cause the bullet to impact outside the main group. After that bullet clears those lumps of fouling the next bullet will go back in to the main group. If your bullets are exceeding the manufacturer recommended velocities then it is more probable that you are fouling the bore.

One thing that you can try to test this hypothesis is to fire three shots and then brush out the bore then fire three more shots, do this a couple more times and see if your group is more like you want. If the group improves then I'd say that fouling buildup is the problem and you might have to slow down your muzzle velocities.

 

[Axis II]

What is the powder charge weight and OAL? Your issue might be copper fouling buildup caused by too high of muzzle velocities for your bullet.

.22 competition shooters are familiar with the same phenomenon, the first few shots are grouped tight, suddenly a flyer or two appear and then the next few rounds go back in to the original group. In the case of a .22 cartridge, it's not unusual for the rifle's barrel to pickup fouling as the first few rounds are fired. That fouling is pulled/cleared out as each bullet passes down the bore but when the fouling becomes bad enough it (the fouling) will start to curl and leave little lumps of lead or copper here and there. Eventually there are enough of these lumps of fouling that a bullet will plow through them those deposits will cause the bullet to impact outside the main group. After that bullet clears those lumps of fouling the next bullet will go back in to the main group. If your bullets are exceeding the manufacturer recommended velocities then it is more probable that you are fouling the bore.

One thing that you can try to test this hypothesis is to fire three shots and then brush out the bore then fire three more shots, do this a couple more times and see if your group is more like you want. If the group improves then I'd say that fouling buildup is the problem and you might have to slow down your muzzle velocities.

23.6 and 24gr IMR 4227 and hornady 240gr xtp. according to the book its 1800fps.

 

[macgrumpy]

Hornady says that the top end velocity for their 240gr XTP is about 1800 FPS and your load is pushing pretty close to that top end. I'm not saying that the velocity is the problem but it's more possible in light of this information.