Reloads inconsistency?

[Blue68f100]

I sort my LC brass by years. I have worked up a optimum load for each year. I can use the same load but have to vary the OAL to get them all to group the same. So using a different year meaning different lot of brass does make a difference if you want the best accuracy. I never could get H335 to shoot good in my gun. Tac, Varget and CFE 223 being the last choice.

 

[LiveLife]

Did you shoot the "terrible" H335 group with cold or warm/hot barrel?

Was the Benchmark group shot with cold or warm/hot barrel?

Both groups were slightly warm. Done after letting the rifle cool ... 1-10 with 10 being the warmest I would say the barrel was 2-3.

That may explain your group opening up.

Depending on the barrel profile/thickness, it could become a flexible noodle even after a magazine worth of rounds and you can kiss your group size goodbye. For this reason, I decided to go with 20" HBAR for load testing as barrel tolerated heat build up better than thinner profile barrels. I got smallest groups with Black Hills ammo (Blue box) with around 1.5" groups at 100 yards but after barrel got warm, groups opened up to 2.5"+. With typical factory 55 gr FMJ, 3.5"+ after barrel got hot.

I have transitioned to 18" .223 Wylde barrel as round count has reached the point on the 20" HBAR that I anticipate degradation on accuracy.

For consistency of load testing, I usually let the barrel get warm and cool down until I can grab the barrel with my hand. While this produces larger than cold barrel groups, I feel it is more "practical" load testing as I usually plink with warm barrel.

 

[Axis II]

Okay guys.

Me.

The rifle

Or the reloads?

55gr Nosler varmageddon ballistics tips with benchmark at 100yards of a front rest and rear bag. I’ve got this load to put them through the same hole you would have thought the other 4 missed. These are 5 shot groups. Cold to maybe a 3 out of 10 warm bore. I made it a point to shoot 1-2rds and go shoot 10-15 22lr at blocks or take a walk before firing the others.

I don’t know why I can’t just accept the fact that it’s a possible good load and move on. Mentally it’s messing with me because it’s been a lot tighter several times.

 

[JFrank]

One thing that happens when you take time to cool off the barrel is that conditions change.
wind doesn’t wait for you to return to the bench.
Did you shoot over wind flags?

Other things to consider -
1- is this the same lot number projectile
2- throat erosion will effect seating depth
3- buying a fresh box of primers ( difference in lot number )
4- powder lot number may be different
5- neck tension could be different
6- AMBIENTE temperature changes can effect a powder node
Question- How well does you Dies Match the chamber dimensions?

Question- was the original load from testing and came across a great load or development?
There is a difference.

Question- did you expect the amount of vertical seen in the first two pictures?

Question- what level of accuracy are you seeking?
Regards
J

 

[fxvr5]

ohi, do you really want to understand what is happening and to understand what accuracy testing results tell you?

Here is a thought experiment. Let's say you load 50 rounds exactly the same. Now you shoot ten 5-shot groups, and follow the exact same procedure for each of the ten 5-shot groups. Here is the important question: Do you expect every one of the ten 5-shot groups to measure exactly the same size?

Think about that . . . . . . . Because that's what you're telling yourself. You expect every group with the same load to be exactly the same size.

What you refuse to accept is that they won't be the same size. That's the flaw in your reasoning.


If you really want to understand accuracy testing, actually do that 50-shot experiment. Then it will all make sense.

 

[Axis II]

One thing that happens when you take time to cool off the barrel is that conditions change.
wind doesn’t wait for you to return to the bench.
Did you shoot over wind flags?

Other things to consider -
1- is this the same lot number projectile
2- throat erosion will effect seating depth
3- buying a fresh box of primers ( difference in lot number )
4- powder lot number may be different
5- neck tension could be different
6- AMBIENTE temperature changes can effect a powder node
Question- How well does you Dies Match the chamber dimensions?

Question- was the original load from testing and came across a great load or development?
There is a difference.

Question- did you expect the amount of vertical seen in the first two pictures?

Question- what level of accuracy are you seeking?
Regards
J

Jim,

Normal dies, same bullet, powder and primer as before. Load was found during testing so I tried it two other times for good measure and shot great. No wind flags and temp was 70-75 last night.

You lost me on the vertical comment?

 

[Jack B.]

It's almost always me. Some days are diamonds some days are stone.

 

[Steve in NC]

"1 good group an accurate rifle does not make" So this may not be a good load to begin with if we are being honest. Somone above mentioned that tiny groups can form the same way a flier that created that 2" group also. Sometimes a bad load that might only be capable of shooting 1.5" has "flyers" that throw them all into a small hole.

And never under estimate wind and mirage. Any BR shooter will tell you how much a bullet moves around at 100yds out of a fine tuned 6PPC BR gun. Your rifles in various calibers are no different. Pick a calm night when smoke from the chimney doesn't actually rise and just floats around..... go shoot groups in that weather!

Steve

 

[Axis II]

Ah screw it! I'm going to run with the hotter load and be done with it. I'm driving myself crazy chasing the dragon. It still drives me crazy that I can go from 5 in one to 3 in one hole and 2 in another. Next step is see how they group out to 400yards. So long as it can kill a woodchuck at 300yards that all that matters I guess. Just kind of kills the confidence.

 

[JFrank]

Jim,

Normal dies, same bullet, powder and primer as before. Load was found during testing so I tried it two other times for good measure and shot great. No wind flags and temp was 70-75 last night.

You lost me on the vertical comment?

I understand your curiosity of loads changing, I am much the same.
In your first two pictures the shots although small strung from 6 to 12:00
Then the third picture they are more towards horizontal.
I would always prefer horizontal, as for load development,some people shoot ladders or groups of powder charges and seating test until they see a good group and say ok that’s my load, others will develop a load and create a diagnostic tree ( for lack of a better term) as they go along.
I prefer the latter therefore if I see my groups going vertical I know that one of two things happened
1- my powder charge is to hot for that particular climate
2- my seating has changed dramatically towards the jam.
I have attached a 300 yard seating test I did originally
My load has to stay at .018 -.020 off a jam
Best Regards
J
Here is an addendum- if everything else is equal keep in mind the most scales only resolve + - 1/10 grain.
In my rifle that’s enough to go from hero to zero

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I wouldn't put much stock in a 3 shot group.

Ran into this long ago. Take the three shot group and multiply by 1.25. By so doing one may get a better idea the potential of the load and firearm.
When I have a flyer it is always some outside factor. Some times it's bad enough to trade the rifle off or, at a minimum replace the scope. Hammering, banging and scraping come next along with shims and a new trigger. .

 

[LiveLife]

When I used 3 shot groups, I later found out 3 shot groups were part of larger 5 shot groups. (Which 3 out of 5 shots? )

When I started using 10 shot groups, I found out 5 shot groups were part of larger 10 shot groups. (Which 5 out of 10 shots? )

When I started shooting 20-50 shot groups recently with 22LR ammunition evaluation, I am realizing 10 shot groups are part of even larger 50 shot groups. (Which 10 out of 50 shots? )

Sad but true - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...25-yards-extreme-9mm-accuracy-testing.851874/

 

[rskent]

I made it a point to shoot 1-2rds and go shoot 10-15 22lr at blocks or take a walk before firing the others.

Why does this make no sense to me?

Me, on the rare occasion that I want to test loads. I shoot a few rounds to get the rifle warmed up and verify my zeros. Then I load up five rounds and shoot them. Most of my rifles are gas guns so I can shoot my group without getting off the sights. Without any changes in my position. Without any changes in conditions. Close my eyes. A few nice deep breaths. Open my eyes. Verify that I am on target. Shoot. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

If I get in a hurry or shoot when I'm tired it's a waste of time and cartridges.

 

[JFrank]

I’m not sure if the OP ever mentioned the rifle of discussion, hunting and Varmint rifles off the shelves IMO would not achieve the consistent level of accuracy one could expect from a competition rifle.
With regards to 3 shot groups I do believe one could see tendencies within that number of shots therefore if you have a crappy group then why shoot more?
It won’t get smaller.
Also and this is my own thought, if I cannot get a direction or a hint within 20-30 rounds then I will change Bullets or powder.
In addition testing without wind flags can be a huge waste of time and money
Just me of course
J

 

[Steve in NC]

I’m not sure if the OP ever mentioned the rifle of discussion, hunting and Varmint rifles off the shelves IMO would not achieve the consistent level of accuracy one could expect from a competition rifle.
With regards to 3 shot groups I do believe one could see tendencies within that number of shots therefore if you have a crappy group then why shoot more?
It won’t get smaller.
Also and this is my own thought, if I cannot get a direction or a hint within 20-30 rounds then I will change Bullets or powder.
In addition testing without wind flags can be a huge waste of time and money
Just me of course
J

Jim,
I was thinking on this post and was coming back to repost and touch on several of the questions/comments you had already posted above. We think very much alike. Your comment about 3 shot groups showing tendancies and getting a "feel" for a consistant load in 20-30 rds or move is spot on. I couldn't agree more. As a matter of fact when trying a brand new load, I will shoot 2 shot group to get a quick evaluation. If 2 shots are 1.5" apart the 3rd shot won't make it tighter! Make a decision and move on. That is some good advice IMO.

ohihunter2014,
I was going to ask about your actual rifle and complete setup after reviewing the targets above and Jim has already asked also. List out your rifle, scope, does your scope have parallax adjustments?, mounts, has the rifle been bedded, torque on guard screws, barrel channel floated or with a pressure point, etc.
Also what is you setup on the bench? meaning are you using a lead sled (please say no. This is the worst "accuracy" tool companies are selling like hot cakes IMO), bags, rests, bipod? etc. Take a picture of your bench setup to save some typing maybe.
The reason for asking detailed questions is that when you start trying to consistently shoot tight groups (consistent is the key word here) meaning groups that usually measure say .4 or less, every part of the system has to be in tune. AND you better be using wind flags and know how to shoot mirage or you will not be able to repeat this. Heck even with those tools sometimes the conditions won't let you shoot like that believe me. Here is an example: I shot a .256" 5 group in registered competition once at 200yds in Alabama. Of those 5 shots the dot in my scope was never pointed at the same spot on the target when I pulled the trigger but they all went into the same hole. Because the wind was pushing them around and on that day for 5 shots in a row I guessed correctly on which direction the bullet impact would go and held for them. You can't aim the crosshairs on the same point on your target and expect the same results. Weather conditions play too large of a role. And that story can be repeated over and over by anyone who knows how to read wind flags and mirage.
This does happen with all bullets. I don't care if you are shooting a 7mm Rem Mag with 175gr bullets... wind and mirage does move that bullet around at any distance. But most of the time a factory rifle with hunting loads doesn't shoot good enough to really "see" the effects wind does have on a group.

So with all of that said, if you want to pursue small groups, lets list out your equipment, setup, and don't leave out any details and there are some good guys that have offered some sounds advise already. I'm sure we can help diagnose some issues. One of the things I suspect is if your scope has parallax in it after looking at those groups in post #57 above. Notice the open and down and indication of 2 separate areas of grouping. If it isn't parallax and you know how to adjust and test for it properly, then the next thing I would question is rifle bedding or how you hold the rifle on the bench under recoil. Varying shoulder pressure could cause small "flyers" like that. But its all speculate now until we evaluate and/or eliminate some mechanical issues first. And we may not be able to do this by typing on a message board. Face to face at the bench sometimes is the only was to really see everything clearly and diagnose stuff.

Dang... i wrote a book!
Steve

 

[Axis II]

Jim,
I was thinking on this post and was coming back to repost and touch on several of the questions/comments you had already posted above. We think very much alike. Your comment about 3 shot groups showing tendancies and getting a "feel" for a consistant load in 20-30 rds or move is spot on. I couldn't agree more. As a matter of fact when trying a brand new load, I will shoot 2 shot group to get a quick evaluation. If 2 shots are 1.5" apart the 3rd shot won't make it tighter! Make a decision and move on. That is some good advice IMO.

ohihunter2014,
I was going to ask about your actual rifle and complete setup after reviewing the targets above and Jim has already asked also. List out your rifle, scope, does your scope have parallax adjustments?, mounts, has the rifle been bedded, torque on guard screws, barrel channel floated or with a pressure point, etc.
Also what is you setup on the bench? meaning are you using a lead sled (please say no. This is the worst "accuracy" tool companies are selling like hot cakes IMO), bags, rests, bipod? etc. Take a picture of your bench setup to save some typing maybe.
The reason for asking detailed questions is that when you start trying to consistently shoot tight groups (consistent is the key word here) meaning groups that usually measure say .4 or less, every part of the system has to be in tune. AND you better be using wind flags and know how to shoot mirage or you will not be able to repeat this. Heck even with those tools sometimes the conditions won't let you shoot like that believe me. Here is an example: I shot a .256" 5 group in registered competition once at 200yds in Alabama. Of those 5 shots the dot in my scope was never pointed at the same spot on the target when I pulled the trigger but they all went into the same hole. Because the wind was pushing them around and on that day for 5 shots in a row I guessed correctly on which direction the bullet impact would go and held for them. You can't aim the crosshairs on the same point on your target and expect the same results. Weather conditions play too large of a role. And that story can be repeated over and over by anyone who knows how to read wind flags and mirage.
This does happen with all bullets. I don't care if you are shooting a 7mm Rem Mag with 175gr bullets... wind and mirage does move that bullet around at any distance. But most of the time a factory rifle with hunting loads doesn't shoot good enough to really "see" the effects wind does have on a group.

So with all of that said, if you want to pursue small groups, lets list out your equipment, setup, and don't leave out any details and there are some good guys that have offered some sounds advise already. I'm sure we can help diagnose some issues. One of the things I suspect is if your scope has parallax in it after looking at those groups in post #57 above. Notice the open and down and indication of 2 separate areas of grouping. If it isn't parallax and you know how to adjust and test for it properly, then the next thing I would question is rifle bedding or how you hold the rifle on the bench under recoil. Varying shoulder pressure could cause small "flyers" like that. But its all speculate now until we evaluate and/or eliminate some mechanical issues first. And we may not be able to do this by typing on a message board. Face to face at the bench sometimes is the only was to really see everything clearly and diagnose stuff.

Dang... i wrote a book!
Steve

Front Caldwell adjustable rest and rear bag. Savage axis heavy barrel, vortex 6-19 AO Burris rings, egw rail, Boyd’s stock not bedded yet. Everyone says it’s an axis it shouldn’t shoot bug holes but it has on more than say 20 occasions so I feel it should all the time.

 

[JFrank]

^^ with that set up , I would think firstly your scope may not be holding poi ( been there done that) additionally Axis are not necessarily the best ignition system with regards to timing and firing pin fall, etc. with that said a 1/2 minute rifle would be very acceptable. IMO

 

[Steve in NC]

ohihunter2014,
I don't have any 1st hand experience with Vortex scopes. But holding POI is a very valid point. But 2 other thing do stand out ot me in the description of your equipment also.

#1 - Your scope has a AO. Can you describe in detail how your adjust the AO when you sit down to at the bench to test loads?
#2 -

Boyd’s stock not bedded yet.

. The 2 separate groups that were shown in your targets above are a sign of improper bedding contact points. If you remove the action from the stock, do you see any wear points or darker colored areas to where the action seems to be moving in the stock. If I plan on getting serious with a rifle, one of the first things that gets done before even firing the first shot is to glass bed the rifle and make sure the barrel is floated 100%. You can bed the first inch or two underneath the chamber, but I personally float 100%. Personal choice there.

So, lets see what your AO adjustment procedure is and how you do or don't test for parallax first. Then..... And I can't stress this enough is to get that rifle properly bedded sooner rather than later or consistent groups like you are trying to shoot will be the exception rather than the norm. I have no experience with the Axis model rifle either except for a 270 sporter weight rifle. They are adequate deer hunting rifles, but I don't know how capable they are of shooting consistent small groups though. Not putting down your equipment at all, but you can't buy a '73 Vega and expect to win a drag race against a '73 Camero either just because they are both made by GM doesn't mean they are the same quality.
I'm a Remington fan, but I wouldn't personally go and buy a brand new Rem 700 heavy barreled rifle and expect the same level of accuracy as the older model 700's I currently shoot. There is a difference when you are looking for small groups.

Steve

 

[Axis II]

ohihunter2014,
I don't have any 1st hand experience with Vortex scopes. But holding POI is a very valid point. But 2 other thing do stand out ot me in the description of your equipment also.

#1 - Your scope has a AO. Can you describe in detail how your adjust the AO when you sit down to at the bench to test loads?
#2 - . The 2 separate groups that were shown in your targets above are a sign of improper bedding contact points. If you remove the action from the stock, do you see any wear points or darker colored areas to where the action seems to be moving in the stock. If I plan on getting serious with a rifle, one of the first things that gets done before even firing the first shot is to glass bed the rifle and make sure the barrel is floated 100%. You can bed the first inch or two underneath the chamber, but I personally float 100%. Personal choice there.

So, lets see what your AO adjustment procedure is and how you do or don't test for parallax first. Then..... And I can't stress this enough is to get that rifle properly bedded sooner rather than later or consistent groups like you are trying to shoot will be the exception rather than the norm. I have no experience with the Axis model rifle either except for a 270 sporter weight rifle. They are adequate deer hunting rifles, but I don't know how capable they are of shooting consistent small groups though. Not putting down your equipment at all, but you can't buy a '73 Vega and expect to win a drag race against a '73 Camero either just because they are both made by GM doesn't mean they are the same quality.
I'm a Remington fan, but I wouldn't personally go and buy a brand new Rem 700 heavy barreled rifle and expect the same level of accuracy as the older model 700's I currently shoot. There is a difference when you are looking for small groups.

Steve

The AO stays set on 100 and I don’t move it. I then get a good cheek weld and fire. I do have the scope set to the right instead of center of the diamond because it messes with me seeing a hole in the center.

 

[JFrank]

The AO stays set on 100 and I don’t move it. I then get a good cheek weld and fire. I do have the scope set to the right instead of center of the diamond because it messes with me seeing a hole in the center.

I would disregard the number indicated on the AO and simply focus the target,
can I assume the scope is a Vortex crossfire model?
I’ve sent one back three times then finally told them to keep it!
J

 

[Axis II]

I would disregard the number indicated on the AO and simply focus the target,
can I assume the scope is a Vortex crossfire model?
I’ve sent one back three times then finally told them to keep it!
J

Yes it is a crossfire. The only issue I had with it was when I dropped the gun and some powder coat came off inside. They replaced the scope within a week with a new one. It holds zero and I've hit woodchucks out to 300yards with it, so I have no real complaints.

 

[Nature Boy]

The AO stays set on 100 and I don’t move it. I then get a good cheek weld and fire. I do have the scope set to the right instead of center of the diamond because it messes with me seeing a hole in the center.

Good video in eliminating scope paralax. As @South Prairie Jim says, the 100 yard setting is notional. You have to do the “bobble head” to dial it all out

 

[Steve in NC]

Ohihunter2014,
You answered my question about AO adjustments and was what I suspected. As others have already posted and shown a clear video on this. Those numbers are useless and moving your head to adjust out parralax is the only way to do it. NOTE: You can't do this by simply adjusting the AO until the image is "clear" also. You have to move you head until the cross hairs do not move off from your aiming point. And sometimes the image your looking at may not be perfectly clear as far as focus, but that is where their is no paralax for your eyes. This is where you need to be to shoot small groups!

So go try adjusting the parallax properly and try to get that rifle properly bedded ASAP and see where you stand as far as group size and see if things are more consistent. Report back and we can keep whittling on your issues.
But keep in mind about what Jim is trying to say about quality of scopes. Scopes are a weak part of the shooting system. Don't discount that information so easy. Nobody can say your scope is an issue. But past experience with a particular brand is an indicator. Like I said above I simply don't have any experience with the Vortex brand but Jim has and it wasn't good.
If you have access to an older bore sighting colliminator mount it into the crown of your barrel and set your rifle on the bench that is rock solid and adjust the power ring back and forth and see if you don't see the cross hairs shift. I've seen it more than once and sometimes with huge changes in POA. Also do the box test with the windage and elevation adjustments and see if it returns to zero. If your going after a cheaper scope try to use a fixed power if at all possible.

Steve

 

[Axis II]

After checking my parallax and finding out that the AO actually needs to be between 100yards and 200yards and using Boretech carbon cleaner and letting it soak for 10min and using a soaked brush a few times and firing 7 fouling shots of 50gr AE BT I ended up with this group. I have been pretty sick these last couple days, so I'm going to chalk the flier up to being sick. I'm going to try this load one more time and I am done and just going to run with it. It’s still not the tightest group I even shot but good enough. 5 shpts. 55gr Nosler Varmageddon BT with 25gr Benchmark and CCI 450 seated 20k from the lands. I have this same charge with a CCI 400 primer I am going to try out tonight. I may adjust OAL closer to the lands by 5k and see what happens.

I do have another conundrum that I would like to address. I fired about 7-8 factory rounds of 55gr V max and 50gr AE BT to foul the barrel. The V max hit on par with the 55gr NBT but the 50gr AE BT hit POA. They made a very tight group like my reloads too. My question is why would the 55gr all shoot to the right but the 50gr shoot right in the center?