Remington 1911 Observations

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I'm starting to wonder if Remington isn't assembling these pistols on whatever slide and frame overrun that they can get from various sources and manufacturers. Given the wide separation of quality and reports...ranging from "Excellent!" to "This thing is a dog." I have to wonder what the inside story is. That may be why they refuse to respond when asked where they get their parts...because the truth is that they can't tell from one run to the next.

As more of them start to appear, a clearer picture will emerge. I'll report what I see.

Stay tuned. (No pun intended)
 
HisSoldier...I doubt if you'll find any true forged frames. They're forged to rough shape and finish machined.
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I would assume no one provides an "as forged" frame :)p) no matter how good it is it will need machining.

But bar stock means something entirely different and very specific to me. I buy bar from the mill and cut it to blank length and start machining. (My company does this tens of thousands of times every year).

Does Colt make any frames from bar stock? I admit I'm ignorant of how Colt works, but thought they started with (as you said) rough forgings and machined most of the surfaces.

I also agree that it's probably not important to add the slight increase in strength forging would provide for a frame.
But to me a forging should reduce machining time from bar about 50%, and I'm surprised to hear that anyone is doing that.

In other words I assumed there were two common ways of starting, either with a casting or a forging.
 
the R1's frame is cast......and you think it's "nicely done"?
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This one was, and I could find no evidence that it was a casting...and I looked hard. If this particular one was a casting, it's one of the best I've ever seen. It may not be representative of all the Remingtons, but so far, it's the only one that I've seen.

HisSoldier:

I understand the difference, but the finish machining process is the same. The cuts interrupt the grain and create stress risers, and there are a lot of cuts on a 1911 frame. Barstock can be hammer forged into any rough shape desired, and it retains its structural integrity until it's machined.

But, again...far too much concern is expressed over the frame. It's the slide that absorbs the heavy stress...not the frame. The slide and barrel assembly is the gun. The frame is essentially no more than a gun mount.
 
This one was, and I could find no evidence that it was a casting...and I looked hard. If this particular one was a casting, it's one of the best I've ever seen. It may not be representative of all the Remingtons, but so far, it's the only one that I've seen.
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never seen one in a gunshop, or online, that had a forged frame. can you post a pic? thanx
 
The frame has to resist battering, it's not just the slide that endures heavy stresses.
You can clearly see rounded edges on the frame in the frame in the photos supplied that are not normally left in machining processes.
Dunno what you saw, but unless Remington's changed specs it was a casting. An adequate one, but not the best.

And, Colt obtains rough frame & slide forgings from an outside source. They are then machined in-house.
Denis
 
The frame has to resist battering, it's not just the slide that endures heavy stresses.
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I understand very well what the frame endures...but it doesn't undergo the same sorts of stresses that the slide absorbs. Caspian went to cast frames some time ago, and have had no problems to speak of. They stick with machined steel slides, however...and for good reason. Centerfire bolt-action rifles with wooden stocks endure far more stress than any 1911 frame, and they do it for thousands of rounds...because the barrel and bolt make up the gun, and the stock is the gun mount.

Back on topic...

If the slide and frame that I saw were cast, I could find ZERO evidence of it. I don't pay much attention to the surface finish, especially on a bead blasted matte finish. I look inside for flash, parting lines, and irregularities in the surface. I couldn't find any...even with a strong light...slide or frame.

And again...these observations were made on one gun. It's the only one I've seen. If I get the chance to look at more, I'll report on those, too...but I can't do that until I see another one.
 
Tuner,
Wasn't suggesting that a cast frame is automatically a bad frame. There are degrees.
Even what I'd consider a mediocre casting in terms of surface treatment can handle most stresses involved.

But- the frame does get beaten by the barrel on recoil. :)

Denis
 
But- the frame does get beaten by the barrel on recoil.
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Not much. The slide hits it pretty hard, though.

I'll relate a little experience that I had with cast slides.

About 10 years ago, my ex-stepson approached me about building a pistol. He was short on cash, so he opted for an Essex slide and frame for a base, even though I warned him about the cast slide.

He's also a bullet caster and reloader, so he shot the gun hard as was his reason for building it...to get practice while preserving his pristine mid-60s production Colt.

At roughly 10,000 rounds, he busted the first slide where they normally let go...in the left corner just forward of and adjacent to the breechface...up to and through the port. (This particular failure is due to recoil stresses rather than impact with the frame.)

It went back to Essex, where they cherry-picked another one with the same specs. It came back with a warning to refrain from shooting handloads...along with the notification that they wouldn't warranty another one...but his load of choice was perfectly safe, and well below +P levels. He's been using the same one for years. (4 grains Bullseye with a 200-grain lead SWC)

The second slide let go in the same place, at approximately the same round count. He was convinced, and shopped the gun shows until he found a good Series 80 Colt top end assembly. With a few minor adjustments, the gun was back up and running. He's since logged about 30,000 rounds on the gun without further problems. The frame is still good to go.
 
Now then...If there's anyone else who has one of the the Remington 1911 clones and you're within driving distance of my place...and you don't mind dogs...I'd like to have the opportunity to look at another one. Bonus if it's a rough example. A rough one will reveal more than a nice one.
 
I've got a new Colt DE 10mm that's showing faint signs of impact from the barrel on the frame. The frame takes a couple good hits on every shot fired, between barrel & slide.
Denis
 
Dasfriek: I paid $589 + tax at local shop thats not cheapest around but has excellent service. Could have got it for few bucks less, but its worth it to me to support local shop.
 
Even though we've veered a little off topic...since I started the thread, I'll go ahead and do a condensed explanation of how the pistol functions....in the interest of furthering your understanding.

Any time you have steel to steel contact at speed, you'll get signs of impact eventually. You can wear a railroad spike down with a tack hammer if you keep at it long enough.

The question is...How hard does it impact? How much momentum does the barrel have when it hits the Vertical Impact Surface? The answer is...not much. If it did, the barrel's lower lug would be destroyed in short order.

The barrel doesn't hit the VIS when the gun fires. It hits it after the bullet is long gone, and after the link has pulled it out of the slide. Since momentum is Mass X Velocity, and the barrel's mass is relatively low...there isn't much impact energy imparted to the impact surface. Additionally, because the link causes the barrel to change directions from straight back to down on an arc...the link itself is bleeding speed and momentum from the moving barrel...so it doesn't hit the VIS with a full head of steam.

The slide has a higher mass than the barrel, but the slide is being decelerated by the recoil/action spring from the instant it starts to move...so the impact energy...while higher than the barrel's...isn't all that great. The impact abutment is designed to absorb that many tens of thousands of times.

The real force...recoil impulse...is absorbed by the barrel and slide lugs because they engage horizontally in opposition as the bullet hits the rifling and yanks hard forward on the barrel while the equal/opposite force is slamming the slide backward at the same time....under whatever level of force is imparted by about 20,000 pounds per square inch of pressure...applied over the course of a millisecond or two.

The heavy, most damaging stresses are in the slide and barrel. The frame's job is a cakewalk by comparison.

When the US government adopted the 1911 pistol, they ordered a dozen or more slides and barrels for every complete pistol delivered. They understood that the slides would be replaced many times before the frames became unserviceable.
 
Tuner,
Understand the operation, just saying the frame does undergo stresses too.
You've seen cracks in them, so have I, and frame battering also occurs.
To return to the OP, the Remington's cast frame is not a condemnation of the pistol, just noting it IS a cast frame. At least in the photos shown. :)
Denis
 
1911 Tuner

I believe the new Remington R1 is made by a company called ERPC and that they're located in either North or South Carolina. I looked at one a couple of weeks ago and the gunshop owner (also an accomplished M1911 gunsmith), went over the gun with me. This was only the second one they had gotten in and he wanted to check it for himself as well. All the materials in the box state that the gun is being made for Remington by this ERPC company. He tried looking them up online, but couln't find any mention of them. He thought that the frame was cast, and that on this particular model, the barrel to slide fit, while not bad, could have been better. Overall the rest of the gun appeared to have a fairly decent fit and finish. In comparing the R1 with some other M1911's in the shop, he found a couple of American Tactical .45's that actually had a better barrel to slide set-up. Their only downside is that they may not accept other companies M1911 parts. The R1 retailed for about $650; the AT's were priced at around $440.
 
Dasfriek: I paid $589 + tax at local shop thats not cheapest around but has excellent service. Could have got it for few bucks less, but its worth it to me to support local shop.
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As long as thats a new price i wouldn't complain. The gun i was referring too was used at $499, I was just surprised to see a used one so fast sitting on a shelf for resale.
 
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