Reommend Home Defense for Elderly Couple w/Special Needs

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JediJJJ

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Recommend Home Defense for Elderly Couple w/Special Needs

I have been asked by an elderly couple (70+) to help them choose firearms for Home Defense. They do not live in a particularly bad area and do not expect any problems. However, they are concerned about news reports of home invasions against elderly and want to be able to defend themselves.

They are both still active and participate in activities on a daily basis. However, there are a couple of special needs considerations, especially for the wife. She has the following items which must be addressed.
  • Arthritis in both hands. Gripping things such as a jar lid or holding a coffee cup are difficult.
  • A formerly broken right shoulder which limits mobility. She is right-handed and right eye dominant.
  • Severe osteoporosis.
  • No firearms experience.
  • Price is a consideration. I keep being told that she doesn't need a Cadillac. I keep telling her she needs what will work for her and that her life is worth more than a Cadillac, if that is the only thing that will work. If a Chevy meets her needs then that is what we will go with. Not sure I can make any headway with that one.

After speaking with her I took her to the range for a familiarization trip. We spent some time primarily with my .22 Neos and a .22 revolver from the bench. Aside from needing to spend time putting lead downrange she did reasonably well. Starting with zero experience my goal was not to worry about getting her zeroed in as much as getting familiar with the operation and safety aspects. Most of our time was spent on safe handling, loading and unloading, and sight alignment.

I did get her to try one shot from a 9mm Mak in a heavy E German Makarov, and a standard 9mm from a polymer FNP. Both produced unacceptable discomfort. That is what I had figured but she thought it was like the movies where you just pointed, pulled the trigger, and life was good. I needed her to experience what it would be like with a conventional firearm. She also was unable to rack the slide on either of those firearms, rendering them useless to her.

Herein lies the crux of my problem. I think the solution for her lies along one of three paths, but I do not own the firearms I am considering for her to try out. So, before spending any money I need recommendations from this learned body.

Option 1
It is obvious that any handgun probably above a .32 will not be viable for her. I do not want to risk damage to the bones in her hand from recoil. For this I am considering something like a Kel-Tec P32 or possibly a Beretta Tomcat as that would not require any slide racking. Another option would be a revolver but I don't see her being able to do a speed reload. We may have to step this down to something like a .22 WMR which would open up the options to a NAA revolver or the Kel-Tec PMR-30.

Option 2
I'm thinking a .410 bore shotgun might do the trick. It is heavier so would reduce recoil and a .410 load of #4 buck would be more than adequate for the task at hand. She would hold it tucked under her arm and basically just be pointing. It would have to be equipped with a mounted light so she could identify the threat and give her an aiming indication. Not sure I would go to a laser but we'll see how it works out. For options I'm looking at the Saiga since it is a semi and wouldn't need to be pumped. I belive it also has a rail (or we can get one for it) for mounting the light. Would also have to add something like the Tromix charging handle extension to make it easier. I envision having the magazine loaded and locked, with the bolt open. Not sure she could manipulate the AK style safety lever. I have read about the deformation issues with plastic hulls left loaded in the magazine so I was looking at the Bear metal hulled rounds. This is probably quite a bit more expensive than option 1. I know there is also a Mossberg .410 but that is a pump and I'm not sure that would work for her. Also, I do not feel that a pistol grip would work for her on this option either. Though that is something we could try later.

Option 3
I was also thinking that a 9mm carbine would be feasible. She would again hold it tucked and point so a rail for mounting a light or laser would be appropriate. This would have the advantage of having a higher capacity magazine and possibly less recoil than the .410. The disadvantage is that you are only firing one projectile. (Realistically I doubt that at the range you would engage someone indoors there would be much spread from the .410.) This would also be semi-automatic so there is no pumping, and ammo for practice is reasonably affordable. As long as she can actuate the bolt handle for the first round or a reload we would be good. For choices in this area I see a highpoint with the vertical foregrip or possibly one of the Kel-Tec offerings. Something like the Ruger CX4 would be way over her budget.

Anyway, that is where my thinking is at. Let me know what you think. In any case I understand that the most useful thing will be to get some experience with whatever is chosen. It has to be something that she will take to the range and practice with, at least when prodded to do so.

I appreciate you time in reading this long post and look forward to your thoughts.

Thanx

JJJ
 
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Similar Situation

I had a similar situation but the elderly couple really didn't want to use a firearm. They are pro gun but never really used a firearm and were more afraid of an ND. I armed them with Hornet spray and the paint can handle that mimics a spray gun, local hardware store will have them. I didn't recommend pepper spray because it's to light and risk blowing back on them. The hornet spray is heavy & oily, shoots farther, steady stream flow and has more shots per can then most pepper spray cans. No permit required and inexpensive to put multiple cans through out the house. Some thing is better then nothing. Hope this helps.:D
 
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for a shotgun, what about a 410 benelli or something of the like, she may have difficulty with the magazine in the saiga...
 
In the spirit of a layered defense, I'd be thinking about where they live as well. Do they have neighbors who are close by? Are they neighbors who could respond quickly if need be? I would put together an electronic silent alarm system they could activate to summon aid if necessary. These kinds of things are increasingly affordable. I'm lucky enough to have a fairly close neighbor with teenagers. They come and go at all hours. The varied schedule makes us a bad candidate for break ins. I would also put in motion activated lighting to deter people who might enter their property boundary. Again, a cheap deterrent. Do they like dogs? A good dog is a good alarm system. It tells you what's up and it tells a possible intruder what might be up too. Timers on inside lighting systems are great too. They give anyone who might be watching the premisis that there is no set schedule. Make sure their answering machine gives out no information. Most people think of this but remind them. Review what is available through the phone book and what information is available through tax records. Burglars often review these records when selecting appropriate victims. Then you're getting down to weapons. Double action revolvers. Flashlights. Your suggestions seem solid. I wish them the best and I thank you for your efforts to help them.
 
Boy... maybe something like the taurus TCP in .32acp? Locked breech, last shot lock open, light trigger pull, etc.
 
A bit more clarification.

They do have a monitored alarm system and close neighbors. So if it should go off help will be summoned, but whether or not it arrives in time is another question.

I'll bring up the wasp spray. Not sure if they will be confortable with that as they may not perceive it as being "enough" to stop an attack.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the carbine or shotgun used as I described?
 
Legal Problem with Wasp Spray

I would not even consider using wasp spray for self defense.

In most jurisdictions there are no state laws against the use of wasp spray for justified self defense, but according to a recent Wall Street Journal article, there is a federal chemical-weapons law that was enacted in 1998 that is tied to an international arms-control treaty. The law makes it a crime for an average citizen to possess a "chemical weapon" for other than a "peaceful purpose." The statute defines such a weapon as any chemical that could harm humans or animals. There is no defense of justification for using such a "weapon" in self defense.

There as been at least one conviction for breaking that law, and it resulted in a six year sentence. The Supreme Court recently said that the person convicted does have standing to sue to challenge the constitutionality of the law, so stay tuned.

In the mean time, use pepper spray.
 
I would not even consider using wasp spray for self defense.

In most jurisdictions there are no state laws against the use of wasp spray for justified self defense, but according to a recent Wall Street Journal article, there is a federal chemical-weapons law that was enacted in 1998 that is tied to an international arms-control treaty. The law makes it a crime for an average citizen to possess a "chemical weapon" for other than a "peaceful purpose." The statute defines such a weapon as any chemical that could harm humans or animals. There is no defense of justification for using such a "weapon" in self defense.

There as been at least one conviction for breaking that law, and it resulted in a six year sentence. The Supreme Court recently said that the person convicted does have standing to sue to challenge the constitutionality of the law, so stay tuned.

In the mean time, use pepper spray.
Click to expand...

This.

Wasp spray is absolutely not suggested. Wasp spray is a pesticide and as previously stated, is illegal to use in a manner not authorized.

Check out www.sabrered.com Sabre offers a training program to teach people how to properly use pepper spray.
 
The Benelli .410 sounds good. A semiautomatic with less moving parts would be better than having to rack the slide or pump.
 
Given their physical limitations and that they already have an alarm system perhaps the money used to buy a gun would be better spent hardening their home against entry.The harder/longer it takes anyone to get in the better chance of police or neighbors arriving to help.Even a bunch of motion activated lights outside that turn night into day could be enough to discourage the average criminal.
 
After beefing up the home, perhaps a nice good guard dog would be better - advanced hearing for an alert, deep growl will disinterest most on the other side of the door, loving and faithful companion. A friend adopted a German Shepherd - lovely dog, likes to play, can run down a deer (has done so several times) and is VERY protective.
 
First make sure their doors to their house open outward. It is hard to kick in a door that opens out. Make sure the bedroom door is the same. A good alarm system that really screams and flashes a blue strobe outside the house. Install glass breaking detection with opening alarms. Tell them to keep their car keys close at night if they one of those fobs that set off the car alarm or just blows the horn. Then tell them to get a nice 12 ga and attend neighborhood watch meetings and invite the people their to go target shooting with them. The word will get out they are not the best choice to rob. Oh, and if they are broken into and the perps are caught there needs to be a new law at the federal level where a federal judge can rule the case blatantly obvious and sentence to immediate execution. Might take a while to get this passed though.
 
I agree with those who have suggested the 'onion approach' to home security. Help them do what they can to reduce or eliminate vulnerabilities in the house itself and the surrounding area. Look at their place as if you were planning to break in, and see what weaknesses or shortcomings you can identify.

Talk to them about common scams that lead to older people being taken advantage of or worse. Make sure they know not to be overly trusting of people who just show up on their doorstep.

They don't sound like 'gun people' from what you have described so far. I don't know them and so of course I can't say for sure, but for folks who don't have at least a passing acquaintance with firearms, it's hard to know what will work and what won't work so well for them. It's usually my assertion that any defensive firearm needs to be easily managed and operated by the smallest and physically weakest person in the household. I see no reason why that shouldn't apply in this case as well.

Whatever is chosen for their use must be easy for the wife to operate. That's going to be problematical at best given the physical limitations you have described. The most likely approach is to continue to present her with various options and let her decide. I wouldn't sneer at a good quality reliable .22 semiauto carbine, if she can manage that. My own mom at 84 is deadly with her Marlin Model 60.

You're doing a Good Thing, and I wish you all every success,

lpl
 
Lots of good proactive tips in this thread. A dog would be a great additional layer of protection.

As far as firearms go, with the criteria mentioned by the OP, I would go with a Ruger 10/22 .22LR with factory high capacity magazines loaded with high performance hollow point ammunition like CCI Stingers or equivalent. This would be inexpensive, cheap to practice with, lightweight with minimal recoil, and would put a hail of bullets down on a bad guy. Just make sure they know their manual of arms, how to clear malfunctions and change magazines, and also how to use the empty rifle as a weapon if surprised.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
I have done trigger jobs on S & W 642 , double action only for some elderly ladies and I have gotten them down to 9 1/2 pounds.
You could get one of those in 32 for less recoil and get a laser grip on it.
If the can handle a rifle a 10-22 ruger would be a great option.
Also a Browning Buckmark 22 standard model goes new for about 350 and the slide is pretty easy to rack.
 
Get a 10/22 and a fifty round mag for them. Their physical limitations preclude the "one well placed shot from an adequate caliber" that most of us think of as ideal. Spray the intruder with multiple .22 rounds.
 
First JediJJJ let me say I respect what you're doing to help them, and that you've done a good job of describing the situation making it a little easier for us to consider.

My own opinion on this is to keep things as simple as possible. It is a very hard choice, and with your second statement pointing out that they do have neighbors near them, to me raises another concern that if they did have to shoot would there be a risk of injury to those neighbors from their choice of weapon.

I would recommend just about any type of a .22 revolver but which one would be more specific to them. Take them to a gun store and let them hold a few options to see which one feels the most comfortable to them. I did notice your concern about speed loading but I would say that realistically in the event they do need it, then training with it and getting practiced at hitting the target would prove more valuable than anything else. Even if they do miss I'd expect that their assailant would probably not be sticking around very long since they're in a populated area.

Another great tool to suggest to them would be a simple and cheap whistle. Then just let the neighbors know that if they hear a whistle coming from their house it means they need help.

Hope this helps.
 
I'd advise against the .410 shotgun. I've read that even .410 slugs are a mediocre manstopper. If they can't handle a 20 gauge, then I'd go with the pistol-caliber carbine idea, which is a really good one. I don't agree with your choice of caliber, though. The recoil of even the most powerful magnum handgun loads, when fired from a semiautomatic carbine, is surprisingly mild and should not trouble your elderly friends too much. So there's really no reason to go with such a comparatively wimpy round like the 9mm luger. Get an M-1 carbine, or, better yet, get a Ruger .44 carbine (if you can find one, that is; they're not that common. You might have some luck looking on gunbroker or guns America.)
 
IT sounds like first you need to find a gun she/they can operate, then find the calliber that will work.

Berreta, Hi-Point, and Kel-Tec all make pistol calliber carbines, but I don't know how hard they are to operate. A ruger 10/22 in .22Mag might be the way to go for a long gun, if those don't work.

I'd stay away from the NAA minis in this instance. I have never owned one, but ones in the LGS all had what I thought were pretty stiff hammers. Maybe one of the larger .22 revolvers that you could use a speed loader in? I'd stay away from the Browning Buckmark, Ruger 22/45 and MKI/II/III pistols. They are great guns, but in this case, I think that having only that smallish bolt in the back to grab onto might be detrimental. Something where you could grab the whole slide, like a Walther P22 or one of those 1911 clones might fit the bill.

She/They should probably go to a gun store, and just see what guns they can rack the slide of, and go from there.

I like the Hornet Spray idea. Maybe bear spray?


Hope this helps.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
 
I have an 8-shot S&W 317 AirLite .22 LR small frame revolver (3" bbl) that I keep in a GunVault in the master walk-in closet for my wife and daughter to use in the event I'm not home. I refer to it as "the panic gun" because all they have to do is point it (figuratively speaking) and press the trigger. It doesn't recoil enough to startle them and allows them to quickly recover for follow up shots, if necessary. In addition they don't have to be proficient in quickly clearing stoppages. It's loaded with CCI 40gr flat nose SGB (small game bullet). Unfortunately it's not cheap. See - http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
 
In most jurisdictions there are no state laws against the use of wasp spray for justified self defense, but according to a recent Wall Street Journal article, there is a federal chemical-weapons law that was enacted in 1998 that is tied to an international arms-control treaty. The law makes it a crime for an average citizen to possess a "chemical weapon" for other than a "peaceful purpose." The statute defines such a weapon as any chemical that could harm humans or animals. There is no defense of justification for using such a "weapon" in self defense.
Click to expand...

So...if a lady is being raped on her kitchen floor and she grabs a can of raid from under the sink to spray in the attackers face to get him off her she'd be facing charges for using a chemical weapon?

I don't think so. And whatever case you were talking about that resulted in imprisonment, I would love to see the circumstances.
 
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