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Revolver or Semi-Auto for EDC?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Texasgrillchef, Sep 27, 2019.

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  1. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Why is that? My Ruger SR-9c was about the same size. One can buy one for less than the cost of one hour of billable attorney's time.

    Yes indeed!

    How would you justify "getting the drop on your opponent" before it is obvious that an attack is most probably on the way?

    In reality, whether shots are "well placed" is defined by what they hit within the body. Those critical body parts are hidden, and most likely moving fast. Hitting them would not be easy
     
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  2. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    Don't forget that besides all that, they also demonstrate greater wounding on game animals and are widely accepted as effective cartridges at short ranges for stopping and killing game like deer. This is not because a 150 pound Whitetail needs extreme penetration. This is because the larger caliber or higher velocity or both larger caliber and higher velocity bullets produce greater wounding and anchor game faster and with fewer shots than a 9x19mm.

    I urge you to see that they're only justifying their customer's proposition. They are not telling the customer the facts, but only what the customer wants to hear. They are indeed "in the business" and it is for their business interest that they are advocating. Some people will argue that the experience of hunters stopping and killing game animals cannot be as relevant to manstopping as salesmen with gel blocks. Do you believe that?
     
  3. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Not relevant here.

    QUOTE="labnoti, post: 11268499, member: 250174"]I urge you to see that they're only justifying their customer's proposition. They are not telling the customer the facts, but only what the customer wants to hear.[/QUOTE]By people in the business, I am referring to those whom you call "their customer", and to their customer's experts. Those to whom the analysis is very important.

    I believe that there are material differences, inherent in physiology, between the taking of game and self defense against humans.

    You seem to be hung up on salesmen.

    Can you suggest a better way of comparing defensive loads than using ballistic gel behind layers of other materials? If you can put it into practice and if it is cost-effective, you could make a lot of money.
     
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  4. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    I'm not disputing the usefulness of gel. It can be an effective medium for testing. I do dispute the absurd conclusions that some gel users have made following an erroneous line of reasoning intended simply to get to the conclusion they wanted.

    The anatomy of mammalian game of approximately the same mass as humans is most certainly not irrelevant. There are, of course, material differences, as there is also with gel. Neither is irrelevant. The facts are that results on game animals totally defy the conclusion arrived at by gel testers who are examining penetration and bullet expansion in gel exclusive of other factors and mediums. They have made false assumptions and instead of being willing to see their mistake or more importantly, confront their customer with results the customer does not want to see, they're promoting bad theory.
     
  5. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    "They" and "their customers" are the same folk.

    The users--The FBI folks at Quantico and their law enforcement partners--do not have any reason for not wanting to see anything. They are looking for the best possible answers.

    People in the ammunition industry perform their tests using the exact same protocols defined by those to whom you refer to as "their customers".

    They are not perfect, but nothing can be. There are too many variables in real-life shootings.

    Ammunition specifications are based on based on things:
    • What medical experts say the projectiles must do.
    • Testing using ballistic gel as a surrogate for the human body.
    • Extensive shooting exercises, to determine which gun and load combinations provide the best probability of performing in the field as part of a person-machine system.
    How might that be?
     
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  6. Zendude
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    Zendude Contributing Member

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    I think another relevant point about proficiency is starting a novice shooter with an appropriate weapon for beginners. In many cases, a 22 rimfire semiauto is all someone can handle. It will allow the student to focus on the operation of the gun instead of focusing on keeping an 18oz 9mm pistol from flying out of their hands. It takes time to develop the strength and reflexes to handle more recoil. And in the end, if a 22 magnum is all the person can handle, then it is what it is.
    For all of us, pulling the gun should always be the last resort when there are no other alternatives to end the threat. That’s why I don’t have a mindset of depending on a gun for self defense. The gun is there if there is no other option, and as you mentioned above, I certainly want to be proficient with a gun in order to avoid making the situation worse.
     
  7. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree.

    Yes indeed!
     
  8. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    Is there data gleaned from medical experts comparing wound data of the same location on human tissue by premium defense ammo in different calibers?
     
  9. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    Why would you weaken the cartridge without giving consideration to using a heavier gun instead? If the gun weight is the problem, fix the gun weight instead of changing to an ineffective cartridge. This solution makes even more sense than concluding that .22 magnum is all a recoil-averse person will ever be able to handle. Why would making the weapon impotent be better than just making it heavier? What is so abhorrent about a heavier gun that people do not even think of it?
     
  10. Jim Rau

    Jim Rau Member

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    Hundreds of cases. I have been giving this same class for 35+ years in three states. Not to mention being personally involved in MANY cases as a LEO for 45+ years. Have any of you taken a person who has little to no knowledge or experience with firearms, mostly women, and tried teach them to reach a level of safety and proficiency where they are confidant enough to defend themselves????
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  11. Zendude
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    Zendude Contributing Member

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    For some, a heavier gun would be an option, especially if it was for home defense rather than concealed carry. The gun industry is trying to make everything lighter and smaller, so choices can get limited. I think the heaviest 380 is still only about 20 oz. which is still prone to limp wristing misfeeds.
    In other cases, those who are recoil averse might lack the strength to rack the slide on, say, a CZ75.
     
  12. Jim Rau

    Jim Rau Member

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    'use properly' includes how to get back in the fight if it goes 'click' when it suppose to go 'BANG'!;) You would be surprised at how many people, both men and women, who carry SA do not know even the basic 'tap and rack' drill!!!:eek: With a revolver if it goes 'click' you simply pull the trigger again. This requires no real thought and only one hand, as opposed to a SA which REQUIRES A LOT of thought even IF you get the proper training and practice, not to mention it requires two hands to even 'tap and rack', and if you are 'fighting' with your assailant you do not have two hands . For a 'civilian' who will PROBABLY never fire a round and if they do the PROBABILITY is that they will not need more than one or two shots a small DAO revolver is the BEST choice. The long DOA pull is a GREAT 'safety' to prevent the 'startled' discharge, and when they are 'in fear' and adrenaline is flowing the 'long hard' pull is never a problem. Like I said, just reality and common sense. Another thing that few people are aware of is the fact that 'many' who make the responsible decision to 'carry' and do all the research to find the 'most effective' gun and rounds will chose a 'big' gun over the small revolver and with in a few weeks find themselves not carrying because the 'big gun' becomes so burdensome. Just more reality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  13. Styx

    Styx Member

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    I'm not an expert, and have no dog in this fight, but I've seen evidence both ways over the years when countless caliber debates came up. Personally and logically, I find it hard to believe that a larger diameter caliber that creates a larger wound (more blood better lose and a higher chance of hitting or nicking an artery) will have similar results to a smaller caliber. On the other hand, smaller calibers are easier to rapid firearm more rapidly. The latter depends on the person... As to your question, if there was definitive proof either way, caliber debates wouldn't still be going on till this day.
     
  14. Jim Rau

    Jim Rau Member

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    I too use a 22 for those who are to 'afraid' to shoot another handgun. Plus, we train with 148 gr wad cutters and when the 'new' shooters ask me what ammo they should carry in their 'revolvers' I tell them to just carry the same they train with, the 148 gr WC. I would rather they get a 'good hit' with that WC than a miss with the 'best +p' ammo.;)
     
  15. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    The heavier gun would certainly be an option for people who must meet physical requirements for their employment. The gun industry is making everything lighter and smaller because of market demand, but that demand is driven by wimps. I'm not calling them a wimp because they won't shoot a macho 44 Magnum. I'm calling them wimps because they find a 39 ounce gun intolerable on their wrist or belt. There are a lot more people that want a dandy gun because of how comfortable it is to carry than there are people who have a physical disability to shoot a 39 ounce gun.

    The strength needed to rack the slide has nothing to do with the gun's mass, but the recoil spring's rate. The more massive the slide is, the lighter the recoil spring rate can be for a given cartridge. So heavier guns are actually easier to rack than light ones for a given cartridge. Additional weight from a steel (or tungsten-infused polymer) frame also does not make a gun slide harder to rack.

    I'm not saying there aren't disabled people who can benefit from using the softest shooting guns. But those people aren't driving the EDC market. I'm not even suggesting that able-bodied people carry macho magnums or that they're wimps if they don't. In fact, I'm asserting the opposite by agreeing that most people really do need a softer shooting gun to perform their best. But the way to achieve that soft shooting is with a heavier gun and not a less potent cartridge that compromises effectiveness. There is no good excuse to compromise terminal effectiveness before considering a heavier gun.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  16. Jim Rau

    Jim Rau Member

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    I have a few friends who still carry a 39 oz gun, but the key word is 'few'.;) I carried a 39 oz 1911 on TEU (SWAT) as my duty gun for years and carried on off duty then too, but now I hate that weight and I find it VERY UNCOMFORTABLE. And VERY FEW new shooters would even consider that, again, just reality. The 'base line' for civilian SD is a small 5 shot 38 sp revoler and it goes up from there. That is what I teach. I am not a fan of the 380, but I do believe that 'something is better than nothing', thus the small/light gun is found carried by MOST CC people!:)
     
  17. Zendude
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    Zendude Contributing Member

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    One example I can think of that illustrates this is the HiPoint. One of the reasons I found HiPoints fun to shoot is exactly what you are describing. They have very little recoil, the heavy slide is easy to rack, and the sights stay on target. A lot of people don't like HiPoints for other reasons, but it's not a difficult gun to operate.
     
  18. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    The thing is, if medical experts can't tell the difference between a fmj .32 ACP and a .45 with gold dots, not only is that evidence that caliber doesn't matter, it is evidence that bullet construction doesn't matter. I'm not sure that argument is compelling to me. Ballistic gel is simply a consistent medium which allows performance comparison not performance prediction in a life or death setting. I'm not arguing that testing on game is any kind of standard, but dismissing evidence or data that higher velocity, more powerful bullets are more effective killers, might not be the strongest argument.

    This thread is not about who is right and who is wrong. There is a lot of information here worth considering when deciding what to carry, and if someone would take the time to read it, they would be better off regardless of what rests in their holster. I appreciate the input from both sides, and have enjoyed following the conversation.
     
  19. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    Due to a table saw accident I don't have a weak hand index finger, and my middle finger is not as dexterous as it used to be. Manipulating the slide is not an easy task for me. As I age and arthritis develops it won't get easier. Your avatar R51 works for me, though.
     
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  20. Styx

    Styx Member

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    So are you saying that in human tissue bullet diameter and damage of a .32 and 45 acp is equal? I'm not arguing for one way or another, but that just doesn't make any logical sense to me absent of any medical or scientific explanation.
     
  21. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    The medical experts analyze how wounds affect people. Others look at ammo.
     
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  22. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Do not take the question as a personal affront.

    Understand that GEM and Frank Ettin have spent a lot of time with trainers whose clients number a lot more than that in a singleseason.

    Frank has been enlisted to assist one of the best.
     
  23. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep. If you have to.

    It's a matter of basic risk assessment . The potential consequences of not being able to sore sufficient hits timely and of not being able to fire a second shot timely are both very severe. The likelihood of the former is sigiificantly higher than that of the latter.

    Not really. after some practice, it's rote.

    The low probability that someone will never fire a round--which, incidentally, applies also to LEOs--becomes moot when the first round is fired,

    Basis for that assertion? Why would you believe that one or two shots would likely damage any of the small, critical, hidden body elements necessary to effect an immediate stop?

    I'm not aware of any well-known trainers who recommend that. Rob Pincus, for example, recommends a single column semi-automatic with no separate motion required to disengage a safety switch.

    Step one is to ingrain the behavior of keeping the finger off the trigger.

    The heavy DA pull is what prevents shooters from firing rapidly enough with adequate control.

    I started out carrying a "small" (actually, it was the same size as a more manageable Ruger SR-9c) 5 shot revolver. I retired it from primary carry immediately after having availed myself of some training.
     
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  24. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    Maybe I'm not communicating clearly. A revolver might be a simpler machine button it takes more time to reload and it's harder to fire one accurately because of the long double action trigger pull.
     
  25. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    And what have we learned from medical experts in regard to caliber of handgun and how those wounds affect people?
     
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