Rifle lethality

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Hear me out. Yes high powered rifles will down someone if the impact of the bullet is about chest, but you have to ask, after the bullet penetrates the skin, and layers of muscle, what else does it hit? There might be some places on the chest that a bullet can pass through totally, and be totally survivable. So, you must have many many "plates" of registration for which the damage is counted on the body of the character, each representing a possible trajectory within the body, leading to missing or hitting organs and such, causing blood loss etc.

You don't hunt, do ya? Sounds like a Facklerite approach. Dude, when a high powered rifle with a good bullet hits a torso, the pressure wave destruction must be seen to be appreciated. That 7 mag I mentioned, I cut that deer open and there was simply NO SIGN OF A LUNG in that deer!:what: The lungs were, well, vaporized is the best word I can think of, total destruction, not just the part the bullet passed through. We ain't talkin' .32 ACP here. The heart was still in tact, but hard to recognize and the bullet passed six inches above the heart. The off side shoulder was hangin' by a few tendons and skin. The on side shoulder was completely blood shot. It was as if 5 lbs of HE had gone off in that deer's chest. This is typical of a rifle producing 3300 fpe shooting a rapidly expanding game king bullet. This deer was hit at 50 yards. It was dead literally before it hit the ground and there was no CNS hit, was a shoulder shot. No, ANY HIT ANYWHERE center mass and you are dead before you can even feel the pain is my hypothesis from hunting with this cannon. My other rifles are devastating to lesser degrees, but the pressure wave destruction can happen well away from the path of the bullet in .257 Roberts or .308 Winchester, two other calibers I have extensive hunting experience with. These calibers don't produce the levels of energy the big 7 does, but they're 2200 fpe and 2600 fpe respectively which is way over and above any handgun. At those levels, tissue well away from the path of the bullet can be permanently damaged if not totally destroyed. I've personally seen it many, many times. I can count the number of deer I had to blood trail over 40 years of deer hunting on two fingers.
 
Yes, I've hunted but it's a game. You're not going to get 100% I'm trying to give him hints as to what will be more realistic. You need to think about all the things you said as well, I didn't say the shock wave will not cause damage... I agree with what you are saying you are just assuming too much from my post, my post is as basic as what I believe I'm trying to say.

Edit: Re reading my post I don't mean to say "you're stupid I'm right". Thank you for the input. I just believe you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Yes I've seen the symptoms of the "shock wave" and bullet fragmenting inside the animial close up. I agree with what you're saying.
 
TLC,

Looking through the responses here, I can deduce that your never going to get the information your looking for, if for no other reason than it is too broad a question and because it is subjective on the placement of the bullet, among several other factors. Thanks to you, I spent about 2 hours researching this question today, and I came up with nada in terms of hard, reliable data that says xxx% of troops perished from rifle fire. Branching out, I could find no reliable figures that state the total number of troops killed by bullets fired from any gun. As I said, the question is broad. Broad, yet so specific, hence my two hour research jag.
 
@TimboKhan: Sorry for wasting your time, but I really appreciate the effort.

Well, this wasn't what I hoped for, but I guess reality won't be helped. Thanks, all! :)
 
given then 13.5% figure for all bullets in Korea, could one estimate a realistic maximum of rifle bullets?

Well when "small arms" are mentioned, they do include pistols (and maybe hand grenades for all I know), but the overwhelming majority of "small arms" casualities will be from rifle fire. So a really good "guesstimate" would be between 12 and 13 %.

As regards "center of mass shots", I would naively expect that they (and headshots) amount to rather less than an overwhelming majority of bullet wounds during combat, sniper situations excepted. Is this correct? I'm told leg and arm hits account for ~45% of hits in criminal assaults.
Addendum: The way we've got it currently, a hit by a typical rifle against a typical human has about a 50% chance of killing (and ~80% of causing immediate incapacitation). I was saying this is if anything too harsh, whether my opposite numbers think it's not harsh enough. Which side would you take?

Well, you kinda have to define COM. All the "vital stuff" is in the upper part of the torso (and of course the head). Now getting hit it the abdomen is messy, ugly, and will PROBABLY cause death fairly rapidly, due to bleed out, but if medical attention (on a surgical) is available, the survival rate would go up. Similarly, shots to the upper leg COULD open the femoral (?) arteries, and cause a rapid bleed out.

So, lets approach it another way---lets draw a box about 6 feet tall and 24" wide, and place a human inside the "target" box(I'm scribbling pictures as I type this). About 50% of the box is "empty" and would constitute a "miss". The most vital regions (head and upper torso) occupy no more than 10% of the box. Areas likely to cause immediate TOTAL incapacitation (my definition,lower spine, pelvis. other major skelatal components, serious abdominal shots, or the lucky heavy bleeder) cover only another 10-15%.
The balance, is arms and legs, "flesh" and other non-essential stuff. (Think about it this way---Someone with "holes" in both legs, and one arm, may still be quite capable of shooting back. They arefar from totally incacitated at this point, even though they may be hurting bad.

SO---Back to your figures---first of course we remove the "misses". Then only 20% if the "hits" will result in death. And only another 20-30% can be expected to take the fight out of the opponent. So there's a good 50% chance that even though your opponent is wounded, he's stills somewhat operational. SO, in short, yes I would say the 50/80% numbers are VERY high.

Not quite what you're looking for, I know, but I found it an interesting mental exercise and I thought I'd have a go at the logic.


P.S. A couple cases in point: a few years ago, I stuck my hand in a table saw, amputated 1/2 my index finger, a cut all the rest up badly. As I turned away from the saw, I stumbled over some lumber, fell and dis-located my right shoulder (which hurt alot more than my hand). I very calmly walked in from my barn, sat down and had my GF call 911. However, had I been alone, I was still quite capable of driving myself to the hospital.
Was also, (in my young and stupid days, hanging out where I probably shouldn't be) shot in the back with a .25 auto. Turned around and beat the living c**p outa the clown that shot me. Didn't realize I even been shot.

While neither of these are quite the same a being shot with a rifle, I use them to illustrate the point that it takes a fairly major injury to incapacitate someone to the point where they can't fight back.
 
given then 13.5% figure for all bullets in Korea, could one estimate a realistic maximum of rifle bullets?

Well when "small arms" are mentioned, they do include pistols (and maybe hand grenades for all I know), but the overwhelming majority of "small arms" casualities will be from rifle fire. So a really good "guesstimate" would be between 12 and 13 %.

Korean War era, you had a whole lot of communist Chinese and North Korean troops carrying SMGs, so for that time frame, I suspect you got a whole lot more wounds from handgun type cartridges than you would see today.
 
TLC:

The data does exist, more or less. The US Army Materiel Systems Analysis Activity (AMSAA) has that sort of data. Unfortunately, you can not access it. Perhaps some foreign gov't has done similar studies and declassified them?

IMO, you will have to come to a solution from another angle.

You have two problems: Probability of Hit and Probability of Kill/Incapacitation.

I will not address Phit.

I would suggest you come at the Pk/i problem from an "incapacitation" angle rather than a "lethality" angle, first off. Some sort of probability of incapacitation, given a hit, with max amount of time that the target will live without medical attention.

dfaugh has a good start: a 2D representation of a human's innards, and summing up the proportion of the human's surface area that would likely lead to incapacitation given a hit: heart, lungs, brain, spine, major arteries/veins, pelvis, etc.

Do this for orthagonal representations (front & side) and average them. Multiply this proportion by HorseSoldier's .80 for a probability of incapacitation given a hit. 80% sounds good 'cause it grants 20% to Murphy.

Good luck with that. A lot of folks have tried to represent such engagements with fidelity.
 
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