Rock River AR 15

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I'm a competitor in the Service Rifle matches at Camp Perry. If you really want to know how good or bad an AR15 maker is go there and ask around. Real expert advice can be had there for free and won't include silly and meaningless hyperbole that attempts to demean any given manufacturer for apparent parochial purposes.
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Very good, a meaningful post.
Also, very true.
I'm sure White Oak Armament will come up.
Good stuff, and yes, I have a financial stake in that.
 
i second that "get a bushmaster" I ordered a 24 inch varment upper just two weeks ago and they had it to me in 4 days.
 
Well you also have to remember, a lot of LE agency's and Military use RRA rifles. The DEA are contracted with RRA for their standard model carbine.

I know it sucks for the civie like you and me, but RRA focus more on their Government contracts than joe schmo who wants a new bang-bang for target shooting.
 
I cannot name you one LE or military agency that uses RRA. I can name you dozens (of LE) that use Bushmaster, LMT or Stag/CMT.
I thought in fact that the DEA is not renewing their contract.

The OP wanted a NM upper. I would recommend White Oak Armament.
 
I guess RRA sold out and is back-ordered.

My del-ton rifle kit came in about two days. ordered it Monday morning, got it Tuesday afternoon. Guess it all depends on what you're trying to get.
 
What about how Glocks in use by Federal Agencies in 40 cal tend to blow up with alarming frequency? Go to any armsroom at any FLETC and ask the armorers to see the buckets of glocks that have gone up.
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Gotta throw the flag on this!! :scrutiny: Make that several flags. :scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny:


I've been watching various AR boards for several years and I've noticed "the best AR" changes with what's en vogue at the moment. Two years ago Rock River was the AR and if didn't have one you were... A) an idiot for not owning something better and cheaper than Colt or B) taking your life in your hands with anything else AKA "junk".

This year it seems the pendulum has swung to LMT or Noveske or Spikes Tactical as the best AR and RR has fallen from grace. What brand is next slated to be "the best AR"? :confused: I suppose it won't be Colt or DPMS or Olympic.

I've continuously owned Colts since 1977 so in some circles that automatically makes me a "Cool-Aid drinker". :cool: Bought an Olympic Plinker Plus two years ago, it operates more reliably than my Galil with Wolf ammo and the Galil is based on the most reliable weapon of all time..the AK-47. Plus it shoots five shot 1/2" groups with my long-time match load using a $20 Tasco 4x and $5 scope mount (not to mention crappy factory trigger). And I didn't have to spend $XXXX for a Les Bauer to get sub 1" groups. Cripes, by some accounts you'd think Olympic was all potmetal. Funny how they have been able to stay in business so long....what is it now..25 years or so?
Our previous armor sgt (Oly and Stag fan) and the SWAT teams picked DPMS for their "assualt rifles" (to compliment the P90's) and UPR's. They could have bought any brand of AR because the money was there and with govt + qnty buying the price differences between brand names are miniscule. So based on their high marks for DPMS the past 6 or so years I bought a DPMS this summer. Now that appears to be junk also!! Sheesh, I just can't win. :banghead: Guess I better cut up my junk before it blows up and maims or kills me.
 
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Well, let me ask you this..... Did you read the report that HK handguards reach 750 degrees F in only 90 rounds on semi-auto? Probably not because HK doesn't want you to. You think they dunk them in water to show how tough they are? You can do that with a normal AR. Did you read how the 416 self destructs in the lab after about 7k rounds? Probably not. What about that recent, very extensive testing has shown all of the current types of piston uppers are showing the same type of problems that they did 30 years ago when they tried this crap? Did you know CAG were such huge fans of the guns because they got new uppers every 3-5k rounds and thats why they wanted to keep them? Why not? Because it doesn't sell magazines or products.

Did you read how SIG has two different production lines? One is for civilians and the other is for high use LEO/MIL customers, their being made to a much higher standard?

What about how Glocks in use by Federal Agencies in 40 cal tend to blow up with alarming frequency? Go to any armsroom at any FLETC and ask the armorers to see the buckets of glocks that have gone up.
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Can we get a link or a scanned version of all these 'reports?' Or are they too top secret?

Too much 'internet wisdom' and hearsay and 'I know a guy' or 'my friend..' and 'people who know me' type of references in this thread for any of it to be believable and of any use.

Oh and c'mon guys, I read this whole post and not one of you posted THE CHART! This is the first AR thread that doesn't have THE CHART in it.
 
i suspect people have Chart Fatigue at the moment. at this late date, most everyone knows about it and has either comprehended and begun making informed decisions or have fabricated sufficient excuses to justify whatever feelings they had.
 
I've been watching various AR boards for several years and I've noticed "the best AR" changes with what's en vogue at the moment. Two years ago Rock River was the AR and if didn't have one you were... A) an idiot for not owning something better and cheaper than Colt or B) taking your life in your hands with anything else AKA "junk".

This year it seems the pendulum has swung to LMT or Noveske or Spikes Tactical as the best AR and RR has fallen from grace. What brand is next slated to be "the best AR"? I suppose it won't be Colt or DPMS or Olympic.
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I think you're not understanding the way the market works.

During the ban there were only a handful of options available. Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS, Olympic, and (towards the end) Rock River. Colt suffered some QC issues during the ban, which allowed Armalite and Bushmaster (and later RRA) to be seen as equals offered at a lower price. Colt was also having production issues which led to scarcity which also drove the price up. So, during the ban you heard things like "ABC" for "Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt", which was often later amended to "ABC and R" to add RRA to the mix.

Near the end of the ban, Colt started getting back on track, and they started offering products in their civilian and LE lines that were every bit as high quality as what they sell the government but with semi-auto FCG parts. When the ban ended, this led to the 6920 being the holy grail of ARs, and the Colt products were now offering something for that extra cost in terms of materials, QC, and assembly that "ABR" weren't.

With the ban gone, the market opened wide for smaller companies to start offering a wide range of products, and the first of these was really LMT with their uppers only. Their uppers had all the right materials and QC, and were just missing some very small assembly issues that would never affect most owners. Then along came Sabre, Noveske, and more recently S&W and Charles Daly that were offering products that were either better than the Colt and were priced accordingly, or were better than "ABR" and priced the same or less.

So, at one time the "ABR" choices made sense. Yes, they weren't to the level of a current-production Colt, but then neither were the Colts at the time, and they cost less anyway making them viable economic choices. Fast forward to today where you can get a better Smith and Wesson for the price of a Bushmaster, a better Stag for the price of an RRA, or a better Charles Daly for the price of an Armalite, and these older established brands that are resting on their laurels no longer make any economic sense as purchases. For every one of the "ABR", I can now get an equal product for less money, or a better product for the same price. If you can buy a Lexus for the price of a Toyota, why would you buy the Toyota?

Notice that I left off brands like Olympic, DPMS, Hesse, etc. These brands have always served a function, which was (and is) to offer a low cost alternative with materials, quality control, and assembly standards to match. If someone is on an extremely limited budget, is looking for a low-cost plinker that looks like the current issue military firearm, and wants a platform on which to bolt crapco accessories, then these brands serve that niche. This is why Pat Rogers refers to these manufacturers as "hobby guns". They are there to fill the niche of the hobby shooter market. Kind of like a V6 Mustang or Camaro, they may look like the real thing, and if all the owner wants is the style of the real thing they may suffice, but they are not the same thing. Personally, I think the best sub-$800 AR is an AK, but YMMV.
 
Just bought my first AR....a RRA A4 midlength with chrome lined lightweight profile barrel and Magpul CTR stock. Went with RRA cause i wanted a midlength and my limit was $900. Haven't actually gotten it yet (supposed to ship on Monday from ar15sales) but i made sure to get it from a place that actually had them in stock....the first model i wanted the dude said it was a 12 week waiting period.

If Stag made a midlength i likely would have went with them.
 
If you are an LEO or military, you could probably get the reports fairly easy from DHS or FLETC. Other wise probably not so much. But they are there wether people like the fact that they are or not. But negative reviews dont sell advertising space. Ask SWAT. Benelli pulled all their adds after an honest review of a bad product.

I am happy to see people so passionate about the products they love. If your feelings got hurt or your toes stepped on, sorry. It isn't about what is in vouge for me. It is about what the guys that pump 10,000rds thru a gun during a test for their duty rifle report. It isn't about adds or positive reviews from teh gun whores. Sorry, Dave, Gary and the rest that get product for free when they write a good review, but if I had the opportunity to do my own civilian testing the way the agencies do, I would and post it for the world to see.

And that is something we are working on. We are trying to find the support for the ammo, we will buy the weapons. We will run it to the same specs as some of the agency tests that have been done and preform the same documentation. But until that comes thru, public opinion is largely dictated by good reviews and magazine adds.

My opinion is mine, take it or leave it. The friend of a friend thing is what it is. I will never give up my sources, but they are MY friends, not a friend of whatever. I will however be putting out my findings on the SCAR when DHS is done testing it. I am a certifed SCAR armorer and DHS does not have one so I have been ask to help in the test. As a civilian I am not bound by the NDA's. So that you can count on it being first hand.

Take it all for what you paid for it. The OP got the answer he needed. Have a good one.
 
PvtPyle,

Some of the best information I've gotten off the net have been from those with first hand personal experience and those with sources that could be verified.

I have seen no posts of yours describing your personal experience with owning an RRA. In all fairness, I may have missed one.

The sources you quote are unreachable by most of us. The one person that did, could not verify the existence of the documents you are quoting.

It would be nice if you could provide some supporting argument for an opinion that contradicts my personal experience and that of half a dozen of my friends.

Daniel
Austin, Texas
 
I cannot name you one LE or military agency that uses RRA. I can name you dozens (of LE) that use Bushmaster, LMT or Stag/CMT.
I thought in fact that the DEA is not renewing their contract.

I can.
DEA
FBI
ATF
(Together, the own more AR's than any law enforcement agency in the world).

And, if DEA is canceling their contracts with Rock River, that is news to the DEA.

The fact that those three agencies use Rock River may not mean everything, but it certainly means something. These are agencies that shoot .223 rounds they pay $0.75 for each, and have budgets most similar sized state or local agencies would drool over.

They are also often out in front of firearms trends, for what that is worth. In other words, they go there own way, for their own reasons, rather than following the crowd. DEA, for instance, was one of the first law enforcement agencies to carry Glocks. The FBI for instance, really caused the .40 to be invented.
 
There is a tremendous run on firearms right now... people are scared of Obama. And with good cause...

As for LE using RR's. I know the FBI seems to be happy with them. At least that is what the local FBI firearms instructor tells me.

RRA is not my first choice, but they wouldn't be my last one either...
 
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I cannot name you one LE or military agency that uses RRA. I can name you dozens (of LE) that use Bushmaster, LMT or Stag/CMT.
I thought in fact that the DEA is not renewing their contract.

I can.
DEA
FBI
ATF
(Together, the own more AR's than any law enforcement agency in the world).

And, if DEA is canceling their contracts with Rock River, that is news to the DEA.

The fact that those three agencies use Rock River may not mean everything, but it certainly means something. These are agencies that shoot .223 rounds they pay $0.75 for each, and have budgets most similar sized state or local agencies would drool over.

They are also often out in front of firearms trends, for what that is worth. In other words, they go there own way, for their own reasons, rather than following the crowd. DEA, for instance, was one of the first law enforcement agencies to carry Glocks. The FBI for instance, really caused the .40 to be invented.
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As far as high quality, professional, duty use ARs are concerned RRA is at the bottom of the my list.

Government "contracts" are nice marketing tools. Look at Armalite, they entered their SASS into testing but didn't get the contract. You wouldn't know it from their advertising.
 
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I cannot name you one LE or military agency that uses RRA. I can name you dozens (of LE) that use Bushmaster, LMT or Stag/CMT.
I thought in fact that the DEA is not renewing their contract.
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I can.
DEA
FBI
ATF
(Together, the own more AR's than any law enforcement agency in the world).

And, if DEA is canceling their contracts with Rock River, that is news to the DEA.

The fact that those three agencies use Rock River may not mean everything, but it certainly means something. These are agencies that shoot .223 rounds they pay $0.75 for each, and have budgets most similar sized state or local agencies would drool over.

They are also often out in front of firearms trends, for what that is worth. In other words, they go there own way, for their own reasons, rather than following the crowd. DEA, for instance, was one of the first law enforcement agencies to carry Glocks. The FBI for instance, really caused the .40 to be invented.
Click to expand...

As far as high quality, professional, duty use ARs are concerned RRA is at the bottom of the my list.

Government "contracts" are nice marketing tools. Look at Armalite, they entered their SASS into testing but didn't get the contract. You wouldn't know it from their advertising.
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So, going back to your original statemen, are you saying the FBI, DEA, and ATF are not law enforcement agencies, or what? Or,that they are, but you just don't think Rock River rifles are any good?

There is a difference in fact and opinion. It may be your opinion that Rock River rifles are no good, but it is a fact that lots of law enforcement agencies, including three of the four biggest federal law enforcement agencies, are using Rock River rifles.
 
Participate in an LE procurement sometime and see if you still think it's the be-all end-all of weapon selection criteria.
 
I'm here to throw my support in with Pvt Pyle.

I owned a Rock River Arms carbine. It shot just fine and had nice fit and finish. Once I learned a bit more about the system, though, I mad some unsettling discoveries. Nothing was staked properly. The buffer tube was not milspec. I had to purchase a new one to mount a stock I had ordered.

There were a few other things that I discovered that made me decide to not keep the rifle. Like I said, it shot just fine. It ate everything I fed it, and never gave me any trouble. However, there were things about it that suggested shoddy workmanship. I sold it to a guy as a plinker (I was up front with everything about the rifle) and spent the money on an LMT CQB MRP.

I spoke with a guy who is former special operations and an armorer. He also trains people under a very high profile company and he said that he would NEVER take an RRA carbine into a fight.

He said that the really liked the Bushmaster. He sort of shook his head when he saw my LMT (thought I was crazy for spending so much money - I got a great deal but that's a complete aside), but he checked it all over and pronounced it a "damn fine weapon."

So, I would stay clear of the RRA if I was going to have something as my "go to" or SHTF gun. For plinking, there are other less expensive companies. Bushmaster got the thumbs up from an unimpeachable source.
 
After reading most of the three pages, it seems like the topic has wandered a bit; although some valid points seem to have been made. I'm not sure what the ATF, FBI, DEA or whoever have to do with a NM gun, but I just got my White Oak Precision CMP upper in 6 weeks (I was told up front that the wait for a NM upper was 6 to 8 weeks). I did a ton of research before I decided who to order it from, and feel I made the right choice. John himself talked to me when I called to order, answered all my dumb questions that I had already looked up, and was very nice to speak with. If the guys on the line at Perry are using White Oak, I feel that says a lot. Not to mention that the price was very reasonable, I paid under a grand for my upper (I didn't get the stainless barrel, otherwise it would have been 7 and change); put that on top of a $300 lower and your shooting for a lot less than you will get a good bulls eye gun for. If I went through what you have with the RRA upper, I'd can em' and make a call to Illinois.
 
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