Ruger LCP And General Pocket Gun Hatred

[halfmoonclip]

It has been a longtime discussion on the Walther forum regarding the PPK. It is straight blowback, and the original .32 ACP version is fun to shoot. The .380 not so much; what you really feel is that blowback slide coming to a halt against the frame. They can have feeding issues as well; that slide is moving so fast that the cartridge stack is challenged getting up fast enough. Shoot the locked breech G42; it's hard to imagine it's the same caliber as the Walther.
The LCP is great for what it is; the original was stone reliable, and really, really small and flat. It replaced a Beretta 950 and a KelTec .32 for me.
The G42, and the P365, have now largely supplanted it; they work well in an Alabama pocket rig and jeans.
Reflecting on what others have said; a quality .380, perhaps slightly larger than the LCP, with the build quality of a Glock or SIG. A steel chassis in the current LCPs might be a place to start. Something both more durable, and more shootable, than the LCP. I think SIG missed a real opportunity when they simply made their new .380 a downcaliber P365.
Moon

 

[starling]

It has been a longtime discussion on the Walther forum regarding the PPK. It is straight blowback, and the original .32 ACP version is fun to shoot. The .380 not so much; what you really feel is that blowback slide coming to a halt against the frame. They can have feeding issues as well; that slide is moving so fast that the cartridge stack is challenged getting up fast enough. Shoot the locked breech G42; it's hard to imagine it's the same caliber as the Walther.
The LCP is great for what it is; the original was stone reliable, and really, really small and flat. It replaced a Beretta 950 and a KelTec .32 for me.
The G42, and the P365, have now largely supplanted it; they work well in an Alabama pocket rig and jeans.
Reflecting on what others have said; a quality .380, perhaps slightly larger than the LCP, with the build quality of a Glock or SIG. A steel chassis in the current LCPs might be a place to start. Something both more durable, and more shootable, than the LCP. I think SIG missed a real opportunity when they simply made their new .380 a downcaliber P365.
Moon

Maybe not. That Sig p365 in 380acp should be really nice to shoot and easy to manipulate the slide. I could see that turning out a lot better than people think. I have a Keltec p11 clone in 380acp and it is far nicer to opperate and shoot. I dont have problems operating the P11 but you can sure tell its a 9mm and not a 380 when you rack the slide and start pumping out the rounds. This goes back to the proper size to caliber ratio and how it impacts shootability I mention sometimes. I would expect the P365 380 to be similar in shootability to the ruger LC380. Im curious to try the 380 Sig.

As for the PPK... if they were not so supremely accurate they wouldnt be as impressive. That PPK accuracy from such a small pistol puts them into another league. As for the magazine feeding issues...yup. Have to keep magazines clean and properly sprung. That goes for any pistol though. A PPK in the right hands will outshoot most full size duty pistols. the 380s have some snap to them for sure though...I think its a little exagerated but I guess James Bond is stuck in their head. Its not a 25acp in terms of hollywood recoil. The 32s are pretty soft shooting so there is always that option. Through the years I have gone back and forth on which is better for the PPK. Pretty rare you see one with a cracked slide so clearly they can take it. Maybe 32acp for the PPK and 380acp for the PPK/S. PPK in 380 is nothing compared to an original Accutek AT380. Those are tiny and kind of unpleasent...but they fit in your pocket so there is that!

 

[chicharrones]

I got rid of my Seacamp. Was too unruly, jammed too much, too small for my hand. I have much better time shooting my Kel Tec P32 which is not much bigger. I got the Seacamp partly because it is all metal.

My NAA was the same. It had to be held with anger to not have a slip in the hand "limp wrist" jam. Those little guns have short and stiff recoil springs. My TCP, much like your P32 is actually an easier and more accurate gun to shoot with none of the reliability issues of the small metal frame blowbacks. Sure, the Seecamp and NAA look like "real" guns as they are all metal . . . but proof is in the reliability.

I never had the Tomcat, but I still own a Bobcat. An interesting shooter the Bobcat can be, but reliability sure isn't its strength. Blame that on long skinny rimfire cartridges.

One thing is for sure, my NAA could never shoot as good as my TCP. Not even close. Not that little guns are much more than the proverbial belly guns, but . . .

Old pic for an online shootin' "contest". 5-shots per target at a dimly lit indoor range with tiny black sights. And that's with a heavier hammer spring for reliably lighting off harder primer euro ammo, which increased the trigger pull about equal to the NAA.
View attachment 1109531

 

[halfmoonclip]

starling, you are spot on regarding 'shootability'; that is the biggest problem with the LCP. Don't doubt the .380 365 is immensely shootable; it just isn't significantly smaller than its 9mm cousin, which is entirely shootable IMHO.
My wish was something like Baby Bear's porridge; a just right combination of size and caliber. There has to be something a little bigger than the LCP, but still smaller than the G42/365. And durable enough to tolerate a bunch of shooting.
No doubt the Walthers shoot really straight, but the .380 iteration just wears me out with its snap. I reload .32s, so that version sees a bunch of shooting; it really isn't hard to reload. Even have a Scorpion in .32, which is a ball to shoot.
BTW, Bond's PPK was a .32; "...like a brick thru' a window..." Wish Ft. Smith would see fit to make some new ones.
Moon

 

[Charlie98]

English is such a difficult language....

Only because people make it so... and that includes the people who write the laws.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

You'll see no hate from me, a pocket gun is great when I just want to do manual labor outside and not be bothered by retention, dressing up for it, etc. Or for deep concealment options with a very low threat risk assessment but still want to be armed as a just in case.

And honestly I have not seen one valid argument in opposition of, only feelings of derangement and fallacies. That is NOT how one debates a position at all.

 

[starling]

starling, you are spot on regarding 'shootability'; that is the biggest problem with the LCP. Don't doubt the .380 365 is immensely shootable; it just isn't significantly smaller than its 9mm cousin, which is entirely shootable IMHO.
My wish was something like Baby Bear's porridge; a just right combination of size and caliber. There has to be something a little bigger than the LCP, but still smaller than the G42/365. And durable enough to tolerate a bunch of shooting.
No doubt the Walthers shoot really straight, but the .380 iteration just wears me out with its snap. I reload .32s, so that version sees a bunch of shooting; it really isn't hard to reload. Even have a Scorpion in .32, which is a ball to shoot.
BTW, Bond's PPK was a .32; "...like a brick thru' a window..." Wish Ft. Smith would see fit to make some new ones.
Moon

I would love to see the PPK 32s become more common. People just tend to hold onto them and when they do come up for sale the bidding wars happen. I agree for the most part on the PPK 32s. Much softer shooting. I can see benefits to both though. Honestly for me it all about how accurate they are. They could snap like a subcompact 40S&W and I would still like them with that accuracy. I should carry one but its hard for me to shake the Makarov off my back for my favorite go to comfortable carry-- (not a pocket gun though). My old interarms stainless PPK was an unbelievable pistol.. never jammed and shot target pistol size groups from 25 yards off a bench.

 

[chicharrones]

starling, you are spot on regarding 'shootability'; that is the biggest problem with the LCP. Don't doubt the .380 365 is immensely shootable; it just isn't significantly smaller than its 9mm cousin, which is entirely shootable IMHO.
My wish was something like Baby Bear's porridge; a just right combination of size and caliber. There has to be something a little bigger than the LCP, but still smaller than the G42/365. And durable enough to tolerate a bunch of shooting.
No doubt the Walthers shoot really straight, but the .380 iteration just wears me out with its snap. I reload .32s, so that version sees a bunch of shooting; it really isn't hard to reload. Even have a Scorpion in .32, which is a ball to shoot.
BTW, Bond's PPK was a .32; "...like a brick thru' a window..." Wish Ft. Smith would see fit to make some new ones.
Moon

If we all agree that the TCP is a copy of the LCP, which is a copy of the P3AT . . . the RM380 is that slightly larger pistola that makes shooting .380 in a 6+1 pocket gun as easy as shooting .32 ACP in a TCP. And I've put real comparison time behind the trigger of a pair of LCPs that my ol' shootin' buddy owns against the .32 TCP and the RM380.

Note the slightly wider gun, which spreads out the felt recoil to the hand.

Note the slightly taller slide, which adds some reciprocating mass that soaks up a bit more of the recoil.

Also note the RM380 is a Rorhbaugh design that was made in 9mm and .380 with no difference in size. The mags in my RM380 have removable spacers for allowing longer 9mm to fit, but the RM was never chambered or sprung for 9mm like the Rohrbaugh was. In essence, the RM380 was built tough enough for 9mm yet only sold as a .380.

RM380 loaded 6+1 = 16.3 ounces.
TCP732 loaded 7+1 (modded magazine) = 13 ounces.
View attachment 1109538

View attachment 1109539

 

[chicharrones]

So, having said all that about discontinued guns, the Ruger LCP Max is a smidge taller in the grip than the RM380 and holds 4 more rounds.

I really ought to get off my arse and get a Max.

 

[halfmoonclip]

starling, I've an Interarms PPK and PPK/s; the latter was sitting, all forlorn in a display case, brandy new. Tracked down the PPK on Gunbroker. The .32s are an article of faith over on the Walther board; the popularity there has helped dry up the supply.
chicarrones, you are the first Remington/Rorabaugh fan I've ever encountered... Only thing I can recall is a complaint about the takedown pin falling out. Thot' the Rorabaugh had something other than a traditional Browning dropping barrel lockup?
Local shop tried to talk me into one some years ago; now you're making me sorry I didn't give it a try!
Thanks,
Moon
ETA- You might well like the LCPMax. Mine ran well enough, except for the trigger slap thing. Again, wish Ruger would take it a little upmarket; the steel chassis thing.
M

 

[WheelGunMan]

The Browning tilting barrel locking system is not the best design for a 380acp pocket auto IMO.

How so? What have you designed as an alternative?

 

[Offhand McFlan]

My favorite Pocket Gun is Radom's p83 Wanad. My shield almost qualifies but not quite. It stands a bit taller than the p83, which dimensionally is a serious disqualification for any handgun. Also at one time I owned kel-tec's p11. That was actually pretty good.... But in spite of being a little bit heavier my p83 wins again! I have actually carried it around the house in a sweatpants pocket, or out to the curb bringing the garbage out at night.

Someday I'd really like to try it's predecessor the p64 on for size. I really don't care if a pocket gun is a little bit heavy as long as it fits very very well into my pocket, AND I can actually get my hand fully and completely around it and my finger on the trigger while both are in my pocket.

 

[starling]

How so? What have you designed as an alternative?

I talked about different systems a couple pages ago. I think it was this thread anyways (could be wrong). Tilting barrel isnt the only way to incorperate a delay.

 

[starling]

If we all agree that the TCP is a copy of the LCP, which is a copy of the P3AT . . . the RM380 is that slightly larger pistola that makes shooting .380 in a 6+1 pocket gun as easy as shooting .32 ACP in a TCP. And I've put real comparison time behind the trigger of a pair of LCPs that my ol' shootin' buddy owns against the .32 TCP and the RM380.

Note the slightly wider gun, which spreads out the felt recoil to the hand.

Note the slightly taller slide, which adds some reciprocating mass that soaks up a bit more of the recoil.

Also note the RM380 is a Rorhbaugh design that was made in 9mm and .380 with no difference in size. The mags in my RM380 have removable spacers for allowing longer 9mm to fit, but the RM was never chambered or sprung for 9mm like the Rohrbaugh was. In essence, the RM380 was built tough enough for 9mm yet only sold as a .380.

RM380 loaded 6+1 = 16.3 ounces.
TCP732 loaded 7+1 (modded magazine) = 13 ounces.
View attachment 1109538

View attachment 1109539

RM380 has a lot going for it. Its a shame Remington went down. Be nice if someone else could resurect it. I was asking around when they had their sell off who bought the rights to the Remington pistols but never could find an answer. All of those remington pistols had great potential. I was kind of bummed out. Not enough were made to the point that parts are abundant either.

Lots of leeway on the RM380 though. Overbuilt for 380 and a longer action due to the fact that it was modified from a 9mm. All good things. The Rorbaugh really pushes the limits for 9mm but 380 is just right IMO. I think you had to change the springs on the 9mm every 500 rounds. Thats pretty razor thin. Neat pistols though. Dont think I would enjoy shooting them. Probably have to run Hornady Lite 9mm 100gr loads in them. I do that in a couple of my mini 9mms blowbacks because I dont trust the manufacturers specs. Keltec PF9 cant really handle 9mm very well either. Kellgren should have offered those in 380acp if he was going to dump the P3AT IMO. A PF9 in 380acp would be a nice pistol.

Like I said Taurus dumping the 732 was a bonehead move but taurus does these things sometimes. As much as I like a lot of their products they fumble a lot. TH9 is an excellent pistol but its duty size. The Spectrum 380 wasnt impressive but it wasnt mine and it needed some work. It felt good and shot pretty decent (when it fired) but QC must have been off that day because it had all kinds of malfunctions. Probably just a badly fitted one. I may try it again someday. The rubber slide inserts were pretty dumb IMO.

The Sig P290rs looks nice but I have no experience with one. I would have to REALLY like it to drop that much money. Some of the prices I see on those get close enough to PPK territory that I would likely just opt for that.

 

[starling]

My favorite Pocket Gun is Radom's p83 Wanad. My shield almost qualifies but not quite. It stands a bit taller than the p83, which dimensionally is a serious disqualification for any handgun. Also at one time I owned kel-tec's p11. That was actually pretty good.... But in spite of being a little bit heavier my p83 wins again! I have actually carried it around the house in a sweatpants pocket, or out to the curb bringing the garbage out at night.

Someday I'd really like to try it's predecessor the p64 on for size. I really don't care if a pocket gun is a little bit heavy as long as it fits very very well into my pocket, AND I can actually get my hand fully and completely around it and my finger on the trigger while both are in my pocket.

Things must be pretty bad when you have to CCW to take out the Garbage. Polish P64s are high quaity pistols. One of the nicer 9x18s. Quality wise I put them right there with CZ82s and Nice Makarovs PMs. They kick though so be aware of that. DA is very heavy but the SA is nice. I was kind of a 9x18 junkie long ago.

 

[CDW4ME]

Ruger LCP...

Concealed in plain site with Sneaky Pete?....yup

very well concealed.

Sneaky Pete and other pouches, fanny packs, are the equivalent of concealed open carry; its concealed but screaming gun.

Shopping at Publix / Wal-Mart:
Somebody with a untucked shirt: that is the norm.
Somebody with tucked shirt: adheres to inconsequential manner of dress, or going to/from work.

Somebody with tucked shirt: and has SP, pouch or fanny pack, its a flashing light- they are carrying.

 

[Hal]

I like my Ruger LCP.

'nuff said.

 

[jar]

I would love to see the PPK 32s become more common. People just tend to hold onto them and when they do come up for sale the bidding wars happen. I agree for the most part on the PPK 32s. Much softer shooting. I can see benefits to both though. Honestly for me it all about how accurate they are. They could snap like a subcompact 40S&W and I would still like them with that accuracy. I should carry one but its hard for me to shake the Makarov off my back for my favorite go to comfortable carry-- (not a pocket gun though). My old interarms stainless PPK was an unbelievable pistol.. never jammed and shot target pistol size groups from 25 yards off a bench.

Hated the 7.65 PPKs I've owned or shot. It's "The Original Slice-n-Dice". Love the PPs and the PPK/s. Like the HSc and the 38h far more than the Walther PP family. Interestingly the Walther Model 4 while truly an "Ugly Duckling" is my favorite out of that whole grouping.

 

[chicharrones]

chicarrones, you are the first Remington/Rorabaugh fan I've ever encountered... Only thing I can recall is a complaint about the takedown pin falling out.

I have to admit, I'd prefer the heel mag catch of the Rorhbaugh. The takedown pin thing, that's simply cured by installing it with a blob of light gun grease and cycling the slide briskly.

The only time the pin walks out is if the gun is nearly dry (or the pin is lubed with RemOil) AND the guy cycling the slide goes slow by fartin' around with the gun.

Fer instance, the only time the take down pin wandered in my RM380 is when I let a coworker shoot it right when I bought it at a local gun range. The gun wasn't properly lubed and my co-worker is a bit of klutz. He jammed my unjammable SKS at the range the only time I let him shoot it, too. He's the only person I've seen jam an SKS.

 

[chicharrones]

So, having said all that about discontinued guns, the Ruger LCP Max is a smidge taller in the grip than the RM380 and holds 4 more rounds.

I really ought to get off my arse and get a Max.

Done.

It actually slides right into the Recluse pocket holster for my RM380.

View attachment 1109598 View attachment 1109599 View attachment 1109600

 

[Hal]

Even though I like my LCP, I did decide to "upgrade the situation" by getting a Sig 938 - but - the Sig isn't exactly a pocket gun. The Sig carries well in an ankle holster - which is fine - and it's a more significant (no pun intended) 9X19 caliber - but - it's not a pocket gun. I like my LCP in my pocket.

I thought over my buying of the LCP when I read more about the Beretta Pico and mulled over getting a Pico - but I like the LCP & step one of Hal's pat pending "sell it or keep it" decision process is 1.) Do I like it - yes or no? I chose Yes - which brings up bullet (again no pun intended) #2 - which is 2.) If yes, then how much will it cost to replace it? It fails that in a big way. Because - I like my LCP and I'd carry it because I like it. If I bought a Pico, I'd always feel guilty about leaving my well-liked LCP at home. Then I'd feel bad because I had so much wrapped up in the Pico that I left at home.
So - in the end - I like my LCP.

I chose to carry a Smith and Wesson M69 .44 Remington Magnum in a shoulder holster, loaded with .44 Remington Magnum JHP ammunition during cold weather because I feel that the additional layers of heavy clothing make the extra couple hundred feet per second of velocity of the magnum over the special can deliver out of the <3" barrel. The .44 is only a 5 shot and - even though I carry 10 extra loose rounds in the pouches of the shoulder holster - reloading is a fairly slow process. A "New York Reload" is much quicker. The LCP in my pocket is just dandy for that, so, I like the LCP.

The LCP is made by Ruger. Even when they get something wrong, it's right enough to be great. The LCP has been through what, three or four different types now? Despite that, the LCP as it was initially offered is still a popular design. My LCP is a first-generation single stack and - I like my LCP - which is a first generation.

 

[MedWheeler]

starling writes:

I wish someone would offer a true lightweight pocket blowback 32/380.

The Grendel P-12 was a polymer-framed 380 in a DAO blowback configuration. It followed the P-10, which had an internal (non-removable) magazine. They were creations of George Kelgren, and would eventually evolve into the Kel-Tec P-11.

They're crude and need some smoothing-out to work, and are easy to limp-wrist. As far as I know, they were the only polymer-framed blowback .380-caliber pistols with both a DAO trigger and pocket-friendly dimensions.

I've had the P-10 since around 1988, purchased on a department order when it was marketed to my agency as a potential OD/BU gun. Several of us got in on the deal and tried them out. I've even considered going back to it as I have had issues with magazine releases being actuated on other guns in my left front pocket (I'm left-handed.)

 

[defjon]

I'm in the market for something thinner and lighter than my j frame.

Got a bead on a gen 1 db9 for 135 otd...3 mags case etc

Or a p3at 3 mags 150 otd...90-95% condition case etc

Or an lcp custom for 225 otd...

Anyone have any hands on experience with these?

Beretta 21a inox is actually pretty hefty.

Lcr22 is like 575 otd...and no lighter than my j frame


Glock 42 is comparable with the j weight wise.

 

[Mark39]

I ignore those comments. It's just a lack of understanding that there are all types of gun owners and enthusiasts and that gun people move in all kinds of circles so one size does not fit all. Guns come in all shapes in sizes because they fill different roles and there is no reason to belittle something just because you don't personally like it or have a need for it.

Many thumbs up for a new manufacture PPK in .32 ACP.

 

[trackskippy]

I ignore those comments. It's just a lack of understanding that there are all types of gun owners and enthusiasts and that gun people move in all kinds of circles so one size does not fit all. Guns come in all shapes in sizes because they fill different roles and there is no reason to belittle something just because you don't personally like it or have a need for it.

Many thumbs up for a new manufacture PPK in .32 ACP.

By all means, ignore those comments if they annoy you.

I do think there is a lack of understanding here, but its coming from those who insist that a pocket gun is fine as a primary gun. They can and do have a role, but its not that.

Look at it this way, somehow your kids Magic 8 Ball tells you that youre absolutely going to be in a gunfight later in the day. You will absolutely have to deal with it, no way around it, and its going to be ugly, and its going to be a bit more than what the "rule of 3" proponents keep telling you is all you'll ever have to deal with. Knowing that, what are you going to choose to carry that day? The LCP? Seecamp? What?

This isnt about pocket gun "hate". Not at all. Its about being at least somewhat realistic in your choices and the skills that go with them, so you can, within reason, deal with as much as you might have to deal with. We dont get to choose the fight, thats the other guy's option and luxury. Whatever he, and maybe some of his buddies decide, is what you get, and at their timing. And of course, youre as well prepared and practiced as reasonably possible to deal with that, right?

Im not knocking back up guns in the least either, they do have a place, and if you get to working with and shooting them a bit, especially in a more realistic manner, I think youll come to realize, that you can actually do better than what youre always told is all you can possibly do. At least thats how it worked out for me, and I feel a lot better now, knowing what I do, than when I thought that things like my Seecamps, LCP's, Baby Brownings, etc, was all I could possibly get away with.

If you are bothering to carry a gun, why are you carrying it? Seriously.

I dont know about you, but I do my best to always carry the gun(s) that will most likely give me the best chance at dealing with anything I might get, and I put in a lot of time and effort with them, to be as capable with them as I can. I believe thats part of my responsibility that goes along with carrying that gun. And carrying it is really about the smallest and easiest part of the whole equation.

By all means, carry whatever you want and floats your boat. Just be realistic with yourself about what it, and your actual skills with it really are.