Ruger LCP And General Pocket Gun Hatred

[trackskippy]

Maybe for some, there is some validity to the movies. Depends on what kind you watch, and if youre living and/or working where they are filmed.

Lots of CCTV "movies" like this as an example.......

 

[jar]

Maybe for some, there is some validity to the movies. Depends on what kind you watch, and if youre living and/or working where they are filmed.

Lots of CCTV "movies" like this as an example.......

Notice all the dead bodies lying on the ground.

 

[trackskippy]

This might explain things too.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRH17pSB/

On a serious note though, hopefully, this doesnt look familar to anyone. We all can shoot as fast at that distance and do better with what we carry? Right?

 

[starling]

This might explain things too.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRH17pSB/

On a serious note though, hopefully, this doesnt look familar to anyone. We all can shoot as fast at that distance and do better with what we carry? Right?

I dont shoot that fast but I can hit a bullseye. Funny video. Somebody convinced him about "point shooting" and fast follow ups I guess. His buddy talking in the background sure didnt help his confidence.

On a plus note at least he had hearing and eye protection on. There might be hope for him if he can learn to calm down a little. This is why my kids started on single shot bolt actions. No rapid fire... relax ....take your time and concentrate.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Also have to factor in the notion that people think they need to have the ability to make 40 yards hit now to defend themselve. Thats not really going to work out well with a vest pocket type pistol. Smallest pistol I would consider that for would be a PPK for accuracy ability alone.

Now for a normal CCW without the need for deep concealment... I want something that fits my hand well and easier to manipulate. Thats more of a feel thing. Firearm control = Bullet control for me. Smallest I like to go for a primary is a Makarov. For deeper concealment I prefer 25 or 32 because its a whole lot easier to control small pistols when they shoot small bullets. Range shooting is one thing but CCW is another. I am not recoil sensitive normaly. I dont have a problem shooting 380acp vest pistols at the range. In an actual event of an armed confrontation I prefer a little more leeway. Some pistols are better than others and I have my preferences. On a vest pistol I sure dont want a push button magazine release (prefer the heal release) and if I cant comfortably shoot it one handed.... forget it. Has to be DAO with restrike ability as well. In the end there are not a whole lot of pistols that check all those boxes. I also prefer straight blowback as apposed to the complications of trying to squeeze a delayed system in a tiny pistol. Even less pistols to choose from in that area.

It seems that the P365 has taken over the pocket gun role for many.

I handled one today.... it is not a pocket gun... not in my book, at least

 

[WYO]

There are a lot of good comments and differing perspectives on this thread. I’ll add mine.

I have noticed a general consensus among the gun community of emotions ranging from annoyance to downright hatred of the Ruger LCP, and equivalent pocket .380 Automatics; and I can not grasp this. They are *not* range guns, *not* guns particularly enduring of a high round count, but for their intended purpose, they are *excellent*.

I like pocket guns as backups and also as primaries when I am going to be doing a lot of walking in urban areas. However, my choices are based on my orientation that the terms “range gun” and “carry gun” are interchangeable. Most of the ammo I shoot is fired through carry guns. I also shoot a few IDPA and Defensive Pistol matches each year with the carry guns, although I cannot use some pocket pistols in those because they do not meet the power factor or caliber requirements. But, even then, I run the pocket pistols through similar courses of fire on my own time.

We don’t get to choose our encounter. It finds us. I would never assume that an encounter will involve a single bad guy facing me squarely with no barriers at a distance under 7 yards. Having spent more than half of my life in a murder capital, I’ve been in “ambiguous” situations outside those parameters where, fortunately, I have not had to deploy a firearm. I won’t carry a gun in my pocket that won’t keep up with a duty sized gun on a police qualification (starting with hand in pocket). That leaves me carrying locked breech pocket semi-auto .380 pistols in the 16-19 ounce range loaded, which are bigger and heavier than the LCP or even the LCP MAX. My pocket guns are fun to shoot and see a lot of range time. I reload for all of them. The Glock 42 had been my favorite, but the slightly larger and heavier Sig P365 .380 (which is slightly smaller than the 9mm version, weighs about 3.8 ounces less loaded than the 9mm, and can be fired much faster than the 9mm) is about to overtake it. They both work in my jeans pockets.

I started carrying pocket guns when the gold standard was a 5 shot S&W J frame with a steel or aluminum frame that weighed about the same or more loaded, had limited capacity, took more effort to reload, was no fun to shoot, and took a lot of effort to maintain proficiency. So, I am grateful to be able to carry what I now carry even if it is larger than the smallest gun on the market.

Most choices involve trade-offs based on one’s background and priorities. I’ll take a little more inconvenience for a lot more performance. If someone thinks the LCP meets their criteria, that’s fine with me. Stay safe.

 

[bdickens]

When I was in the military (MP) it was safety on, no round in the chamber. We were all armed and had regular training. These days people say that is like not even having a loaded firearm.....really?

Yes. Really.

If you think you can get it into action in time, you need to try it.

 

[Rule3]

I carry a LCP max everyday. Have carried a LCP since the came out. Not a matter of price. I could carry a whole lot of other more expensive guns.
I carry the LCP as it is true pocket carry and I am not gonna base what I wear on a gun! The newer small 9mms simply are not pocket guns plu now they are offering extended mags?
I wear regular shorts (not cargo shorts) and a T shirt most of the time.
The LCP in a sticky holster doe not print, draws easy and not like a J frame or rock in my pocket
The only 9m that I carry sometimes is the Kahr PM9 One of my favorite 380's is the Sig P230/232 very accurate but just to big to actually carry in a pocket

I dislike IWB carry, so that leaves OWB carry which then means a shirt to cover it up.

 

[chaim]

I don't see much hatred, but I do see a lot of people who: 1) love them, 2) choose them as the best thing that fits a need but don't necessarily love them, 3) own one but don't shoot it much because (fill in one of many reasons here), 4) don't have one but see the draw and/or want one, 5) don't particularly want one. You know, just like pretty much any other gun.

Now, small pocket pistols do have more negatives than most guns, and a .380ACP pistol in this size and weight range have some very specific drawbacks. If you see someone identifying those drawbacks as hate, then fine, here are my reasons to hate the LCP:
1) It isn't fun to shoot so I really don't practice with it as much as I should if I'm going to use it for self defense.
2) Mine is almost never used as I prefer a J-frame (or equivalent) in its intended role (dropping into a pocket for a short trip or when something else won't do)
3) This type of gun is generally harder to shoot accurately (which makes #1 a bigger deal), and the LCP is especially bad with its nearly non-existent sights. I fixed this with a Crimson Trace laser, but then, this takes away a lot of the price advantage it has over some alternatives
4) I consider .380 to be the minimum acceptable caliber for self defense (as do many others). For me, it is just barely adequate. I feel much more comfortable with the slightly more capable .38+P or much more capable 9mm, and there are quite pocketable guns in both calibers.
5) Small autos (and especially small for caliber pistols) like the LCP can be much more ammo sensitive and otherwise more finicky than other guns. My LCP definitely seems to be far less tolerant of anything but the optimal amount of lube, and it seems like it can be picky with JHP at times. It is 100% with FMJ however, but I'd rather not further neuter an already minimal chambering for defense (see #4).


I have one for a theoretical need. So far, there hasn't been a time that I could have carried the LCP but not a SIG P290 or J-frame, but if that time comes I have it. However, I've been considering (for years) replacing it with an only barely larger and heavier, but still quite easily pocketed, Kahr PM9. While the PM9 can be finicky as well, it won't be any harder to shoot (I've shot one quite a bit when a buddy had one), the sights are much better, and it is in a much more capable chambering. Still, at this time, I still have one, and there are not many guns that combine an acceptable (if just barely) self-defense cartridge and such a small and easily concealed package, so for some people, I would indeed recommend one. However, I would only recommend it in a very niche role.

My alternative recommendations for most similar roles:
You want it because it is cheap (but want a .380): Bersa Thunder .380. Barely pocketable, disappears IWB, but larger and thus much easier to shoot.
You want it because it is cheap: Taurus has some decent 9mm options right now (G2, G3 and compact versions, Gx4). Quite concealable, and much easier to shoot.
You want it because it is small: Kahr PM9. Nearly as easily concealed, and easier to shoot well in a more capable caliber.
You want it because it is small and you have something else: Here I'd say LCP if money is a factor, PM9 if it isn't (assuming it is small enough for you, if not, then the LCP again).

If I didn't already have it, I doubt I'd buy an LCP now. I'd probably buy a Kahr MP9 or CM9, though there are a few .380s I'd also consider. The S&W Bodyguard or SIG P238 being top of the list (for the SIG I'd have to reconsider my reluctance to use a gun with a safety in a self defense role however). However, it fills a niche I wouldn't quite have (even if I don't utilize this niche) if I got rid of it, so it has stayed for about 10 years (despite theoretically being on the chopping block every few years; right now I'm teetering between holding on to it or trading it on a PM9).

 

[starling]

Yes. Really.

If you think you can get it into action in time, you need to try it.

See bdickens... this is the kind of sillyness I am refering. Tell that to military and LE. That a Gun is not loaded while it has a full magazine in it. Chambered or not. Its not just rediculous its irresponsible to say things like that.

Not trying to get in a verbal altercation with you (im sure your a decent fellow) but the way people sometimes talk about firearms handling sometimes just blows my mind.

 

[trackskippy]

See bdickens... this is the kind of sillyness I am refering. Tell that to military and LE. That a Gun is not loaded while it has a full magazine in it. Chambered or not. Its not just rediculous its irresponsible to say things like that.

Not trying to get in a verbal altercation with you (im sure your a decent fellow) but the way people sometimes talk about firearms handling sometimes just blows my mind.

Hate to burst your bubble here, but hes 110% correct. Carrying a gun with an empty chamber, is carrying an "unloaded" gun.

The military has its rules due to basically the lowest common denominator thing. They dont trust you with loaded weapons.

I know of no LE agency that carries or requires empty chamber carry.

Show us one accredited trainer who advocates carrying your gun empty...... we'll wait.

 

[starling]

Hate to burst your bubble here, but hes 110% correct. Carrying a gun with an empty chamber, is carrying an "unloaded" gun.

The military has its rules due to basically the lowest common denominator thing. They dont trust you with loaded weapons.

I know of no LE agency that carries or requires empty chamber carry.

Show us one accredited trainer who advocates carrying your gun empty...... we'll wait.

No he is not and you arent either as well as ANY "trainer" that says differently. If the magazine has rounds in it the firearm is loaded. Sheesh. This is not rocket science nor is it even questionable.

You are being irreponsible with those kind of statments.

But hey...whatever. No worries

 

[trackskippy]

If the gun has an empty chamber, its not in a "ready to fire" condition, and is not considered "loaded" for immediate use. Doesnt matter how many rounds are in the gun.

Youre right, its not rocket science, so how is that so hard to understand?

 

[bdickens]

See bdickens... this is the kind of sillyness I am refering. Tell that to military and LE. That a Gun is not loaded while it has a full magazine in it. Chambered or not. Its not just rediculous its irresponsible to say things like that.

Not trying to get in a verbal altercation with you (im sure your a decent fellow) but the way people sometimes talk about firearms handling sometimes just blows my mind.

I wasn't even going to respond to your ignorant and crude attempt at deflection. Regardless of what somebody else may or may not actually do, just because they do something stupid doesn't mean that you should follow their lead. But since you are hellbent on trying to promote your ignorance:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that no law enforcement agency anywhere in the US has their officers carry without a round in the chamber. None. Zero.

Military training and SOPs for carrying firearms have nothing to do with civilian self defense. Nothing. And frankly, neither does much of police training either.

But I didn't even address those obvious red herrings. What I said is if you think you can get a round chambered in time you need to go try it.

Go on. Try it. Come back and let us know how it goes. You won't. You won't because you don't want to know the truth.

You are the one being silly.

You are the one being ridiculous.

You're a grown up. Do what you want. But don't try to pass your own fear and ignorance off as some kind of superior safety consciousness.

 

[starling]

I wasn't even going to respond to your ignorant and crude attempt at deflection. Regardless of what somebody else may or may not actually do, just because they do something stupid doesn't mean that you should follow their lead. But since you are hellbent on trying to promote your ignorance:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that no law enforcement agency anywhere in the US has their officers carry without a round in the chamber. None. Zero.

Military training and SOPs for carrying firearms have nothing to do with civilian self defense. Nothing. And frankly, neither does much of police training either.

But I didn't even address those obvious red herrings. What I said is if you think you can get a round chambered in time you need to go try it.

Go on. Try it. Come back and let us know how it goes. You won't. You won't because you don't want to know the truth.

You are the one being silly.

You are the one being ridiculous.

You're a grown up. Do what you want. But don't try to pass your own fear and ignorance off as some kind of superior safety consciousness.

Im talking about this notion you are promoting that a pistol with a full magazine but not chambered is an unloaded firearm. All this other stuff you are injecting into it is irrelevent to that.

There are plenty of firearms safety classes out there. Might be good to brush up on that if this is too complicated of a concept for you to understand.

I dont care how you decide to carry your firearm. Thats a personal decision that the individual has to make based on their own situation. You start saying stupid stuff like loaded weapons are not really loaded because you prefer this or that..... um yeah... I am going to call it out for the nonsense it is. These are public forums and new shooters...even children are open to read what you promote. Might be good to think about that before you post. Best to drop the ego and be responsible. Everyones actions here represent the firearms enthusiest community....even yours.

Last post for me on this subject as I think I have been pretty clear. Appologies to the OP for this going off track. I admit to getting sucked into an exchange and I am sorry for that. Kinda got stunned at what I was actually reading people write.

Back to LCP/Pocket gun talk.

 

[bdickens]

You're the one who brought up all the irrelavancies.

English is such a difficult language....

 

[CDW4ME]

@starling some who read my posts know I think a LCP 380 is marginal* and should only be carried if/when one can't do better.
*Marginal if it is in a pocket holster, ready to fire.
Carrying a semi empty chamber puts the user at a severe disadvantage if they unexpectedly have to defend themself.
If one has both hands available, and if chambering the round goes smoothly precious time is still lost and there is potential for this to be fumbled under stress.
One may not have both hands available, trying to hold off attacker, or may be initially shot, stabbed, wounded in one arm/hand.

Some that read my posts may also know that I have no love for revolvers, I don't carry one.
However, I do think revolvers may be the best choice for someone uncomfortable or incompetent with loaded chamber on a semi.
Congratulations, you are getting me to advocate carrying a revolver* rather than carry a semi with empty chamber. *Rare recommendation from me
ready to fire revolver > not ready to fire semi (hurts my fingers to type that but is is true)

ETA: story where some body was killed carrying empty chamber:
https://www.wkyt.com/2022/10/07/real-estate-agent-killed-during-exchange-dirt-bike-sold-online/

 

[trackskippy]

Im talking about this notion you are promoting that a pistol with a full magazine but not chambered is an unloaded firearm. All this other stuff you are injecting into it is irrelevent to that.

There are plenty of firearms safety classes out there. Might be good to brush up on that if this is too complicated of a concept for you to understand.

I dont care how you decide to carry your firearm. Thats a personal decision that the individual has to make based on their own situation. You start saying stupid stuff like loaded weapons are not really loaded because you prefer this or that..... um yeah... I am going to call it out for the nonsense it is. These are public forums and new shooters...even children are open to read what you promote. Might be good to think about that before you post. Best to drop the ego and be responsible. Everyones actions here represent the firearms enthusiest community....even yours.

Last post for me on this subject as I think I have been pretty clear. Appologies to the OP for this going off track. I admit to getting sucked into an exchange and I am sorry for that. Kinda got stunned at what I was actually reading people write.

Back to LCP/Pocket gun talk.

LOL. Carrying a pocket gun with an empty chamber is a force multiplier in making a bad choice, exponentially worse.

"You start saying stupid stuff like loaded weapons are not really loaded because you prefer this or that..... um yeah... I am going to call it out for the nonsense it is."
The stupid stuff and nonsense here, is saying a gun with an empty chamber is "loaded", simply because it has a loaded mag in it. Will the gun fire if you pull the trigger? If not, its not loaded. You need to continue loading it to get the desired effect.

This isnt about "ego " its about "intelligence". Im stunned to read that there are people out there carrying a gun, that don't understand the difference between a loaded and unloaded gun.

And like a couple of other things associated with the subject here, pretty scary when you get to thinking about it.

 

[jar]

Today my carry will be my Tomcat in my pocket without a holster.

 

[jstert]

the solution to the 380acp pocket pistol conundrum is offer them all in 32acp.

pocket pistols are bought to serve as last-ditch or backup or comfortable or deeply concealed pieces. since i am pocket-carrying my keltec p32 by definition i’m not charging to the sound of gunfire.

32acp is soft enough out of a pocket pistol to make practice pleasant enough to get enough of it. a ruger lcp 380acp is no fun, i’ve tried them more than once. if i were to actually carry it i wouldn’t be hitting my target with any consistency at all. consistent hits with a well-practiced 32acp (or 25acp or 22lr), in my humble, normal-day, world, always trumps misses with 380acp and up.

 

[shafter]

I have noticed a general consensus among the gun community of emotions ranging from annoyance to downright hatred of the Ruger LCP, and equivalent pocket .380 Automatics; and I can not grasp this. They are *not* range guns, *not* guns particularly enduring of a high round count, but for their intended purpose, they are *excellent*.

For a *very* long time, almost a decade infact; Academy regularly had them for $199 +tax if memory serves, with them occasionally dropping to $150 +tax. Where else are you gonna get an American made firearm that is genuinely concealable, chambered in a decent cartridge, and has the backing of one of America's largest firearm manufacturers behind it regarding QA/QC, and reparations if issues are to be had for still less than $300 ?

The quick answer is... you're not. How many low income people trying to make ends meet did Ruger provide comfort and protection to with something that is seemingly hated by a large portion of the firearms community ? How many people, when restrained by a non-permissive work environment, given the choice between a certain diminutive .22 revolver or an LCP actually had a viable method of defense when carrying an LCP compared to a NAA .22 revolver ?


Just something to think about next time you see a thread or comment bashing the LCP and pocket .380's in general.

Try shooting one under pressure and you'll see why so many people don't have much use for them. Just like there is such a thing as too big, there is also too small.

 

[starling]

@starling some who read my posts know I think a LCP 380 is marginal* and should only be carried if/when one can't do better.
*Marginal if it is in a pocket holster, ready to fire.
Carrying a semi empty chamber puts the user at a severe disadvantage if they unexpectedly have to defend themself.
If one has both hands available, and if chambering the round goes smoothly precious time is still lost and there is potential for this to be fumbled under stress.
One may not have both hands available, trying to hold off attacker, or may be initially shot, stabbed, wounded in one arm/hand.

Some that read my posts may also know that I have no love for revolvers, I don't carry one.
However, I do think revolvers may be the best choice for someone uncomfortable or incompetent with loaded chamber on a semi.
Congratulations, you are getting me to advocate carrying a revolver* rather than carry a semi with empty chamber. *Rare recommendation from me
ready to fire revolver > not ready to fire semi (hurts my fingers to type that but is is true)

ETA: story where some body was killed carrying empty chamber:
https://www.wkyt.com/2022/10/07/real-estate-agent-killed-during-exchange-dirt-bike-sold-online/

When you really look at what DAO revolvers offer they are pretty much the best option for a pocket gun. The only real downside they have is they bulky cylinder. Sure would be nice if there were some truely scaled down pocket revolvers out there seems to be some invisible line where the smallest manufacturers will go is a 5 shot 38 special which is too bad. Firearms history has been full of scaled down pocket revolvers but nobody is really doing it now outside NAA and those are a little tiny for most to actually use comfortably and efficiently. Those little RG/Rohm revolvers were not the greatest quality but they sure were sized nice for something like a pocket. Maybe a quality 25 or 32 DAO revolver in that size range would be a winner.

People are going to carry what (and how) they can get comfortable with. Some can still carry a derringer but I cant due to the trigger oddities. My personal preference is a thin true DAO straight blowback semi auto with a good size to caliber ratio. Of which there is not whole lot out there but I make due.

My Idea of the perfect design for a Semi Auto pocket pistol in 380acp does not yet exhist....yet. A couple are close but they are either too big or dont check all the boxes. The Browning tilting barrel locking system is not the best design for a 380acp pocket auto IMO.

 

[starling]

the solution to the 380acp pocket pistol conundrum is offer them all in 32acp.

pocket pistols are bought to serve as last-ditch or backup or comfortable or deeply concealed pieces. since i am pocket-carrying my keltec p32 by definition i’m not charging to the sound of gunfire.

32acp is soft enough out of a pocket pistol to make practice pleasant enough to get enough of it. a ruger lcp 380acp is no fun, i’ve tried them more than once. if i were to actually carry it i wouldn’t be hitting my target with any consistency at all. consistent hits with a well-practiced 32acp (or 25acp or 22lr), in my humble, normal-day, world, always trumps misses with 380acp and up.

Couldnt agree more. You would think at least Ammo manufacturers would produce inexpensive lower recoil practice loads for people (especially new shooters) to become comfortable with. There is a pretty common tendncy for people to buy these pocket 380s... shoot them once... realize they dont like the snap and carry it anyways.

Strange thing is a lot of these pocket 380s could go 32acp with a simple barrel and recoil spring change. I get kind of irritated at the laziness of Gun Manufacturers and designers these days. It was not the case in the 80s and 90s. Heck...even the Lorcins were available in multiple calibers.

Its not to late though. Nothing is stopping Ruger from ofering the LCP in 25 and 32. Same goes for the Bodyguard in 32Acp. Its not like these companies dont have the funds. Sometimes its about market presence even if the sales dont reach the mark of superstardom. Keltec p32s seem to still sell very well.

 

[WheelGunMan]

I look at my LCP as a "Get off me" gun. IMO its use is at bad breath distance. It serves it's purpose. I actually enjoy shooting it.

 

[chicharrones]

The Browning tilting barrel locking system is not the best design for a 380acp pocket auto IMO.

I think it is an improvement, depending on the cartridge*. Locked breech tilt barrel centerfire designs that were made from the start as a pocket gun are very reliable in my experience.

Not to mention that they typically are more tolerant of slight "limp wristing" than blowback pocket guns which need a stiffer hold with no slippage of that hold. That recoil spring in a blowback pocket gun is stronger than in a similarly sized tilt barrel gun, and your hand/wrist/arm better be stiff as a board to have the slide travel far enough for a clean eject and feed cycle.

Plus the fact that the a tilt barrel gun's chamber lowers to align better with the cartridge coming out of the magazine.

*I'm speaking of .32 ACP and .380 ACP proportioned cartridges in LCP sized guns. Not long and skinny rimfire cartridges.