Ruger Mini-14 2-Shot Okay... BATF!

[Rockstar]

Gundealer: Your ramblings about mass murder are childish and nonsensical. I can't imagine that anybody reading this thread would take your mishmash posts seriously.

Hey, you're not the same "gundealer" who swore that pre-ban mags couldn't be used in "post-ban" pistols are you?

 

[Badger Arms]

i wont be back....

Good. And the funniest thing is that you're not even good at trolling.

Your video shows you (or at least I'll assume it's you) doing just what the letter said it was legal to do. You inserted a paper staple underneath the disconnector and proceded to fire the gun once for each pull of the trigger, and once for each release. This is legal, as stated in the letter and in the NFA. You then go on to say that it's full-auto. Uh, as the letter states and properly explains, it's not. If it were, you (er, I mean this mysterious guy in the video), would have been committing a felony. Don't worry, you weren't. You (uh, the mysterious dude in the video) were just making a fool of yourself. If it hurts, there are licensed clinical social workers who are standing by to help you work through your pain.

I liked the video, because it illustrates one thing. If you don't do it right, the hammer falls on the firing pin and you must manually cycle the gun, just as I said it would and contradicting what you said. Thank you for making my point. If you have any more questions, please contact [email protected] who is both "TheGunDealer," "rugerriflesmith," the person in this video, and the individual who said he would not be back.

 

[Steve Smith]

Such drudgery...ALL PLEASE READ

I just got a message about this thread today. I am sure that there have been harsh comments from both sides of this debate, but to be perfectly honest, I don't have the interest nor the time to go piece by piece through the thread and make sure that everyone played nice. What I have done is found a particular user repeatedly setting off the language filter. I have deleted your words and sent you a PM which you should read.

For the rest of you, please take note, the attemp to use foul language is not allowed here and has never been. If you want your words to continue in perpetuity, keep your comments clean. It's the first thing that I saw, and the only thing that stood out. Otherwise, you risk your individual comments deleted, your membership revoked, your posts deleted, and ultimately your IP address blocked.

If you have any problems remembering this, please reference the Forum Rules at the top right of every page.

 

[Badger Arms]

watch the video and make up your own mind.

For those of you with a stomach, I've got his video. I'll host it and link to it when I get the time. Go ahead and grab some popcorn or just forward it to the 1:40 point where he actually starts shooting the thing... improperly. Heck, I counted two stoppages in one 35-round magazine. I'm sure you have to 'get in the rhythm' and don't release the trigger faster than the cyclic rate of the gun which seems to be around 1,200 rpm if my ears are properly calibrated. Shoot it about as fast as an M-16 or AK-47 pull, release, pull release, at a steady rate... you get the drift.

If you're interested in seeing another cheesy rapid-fire gimic, try watching the "Hellfire" video. For those not in the know, the Hellfire is basically a mechanical assist for bump-firing in that it just serves to help reset the trigger. http://www.gungarage.com/hellfireggr.wmv

Edited to remove troll tracks.

 

[dmftoy1]

Badger, that's pretty cool. I watched the video once and thought he was right and then put it on slow play and 200% size and watched his finger and can see exactly what you're pointing out. Definately interesting.


Have a good one,
Dave

 

[JShirley]

Guys, here's a phrase. Please use and remember it:

"DON'T FEED THE TROLLS." Just about all of you have been around long enough to know when someone is obviously full of it.

Unfortunately, there's no law against idiocy. When the personal attacks start, though, PLEASE call a friendly mod to take out the trash. That way you won't have to later either wade through a thread missing a huge chunk, or force a mod to clean out the gutters when he has lots of other things to do.

Mkay? Thanks.

John

 

[Badger Arms]

Thought you'd deleted the thread for a bit there. Thanks. Since the troll released it to the public, I'll post a video as soon I've got the time. It's interesting enough and I trimmed it down to 2.5 megs or so.

 

[Badger Arms]

Okay, I've got the "Troll" video up and running. Try it out.

Troll Modifying and shooting his Mini-14.

 

[chopinbloc]

well i think it sounds like loads of fun and i intend to try it at my earliest opportunity.

incidentally, one should remember that some states have laws about "machineguns" that may be written in such a way that this would qualify. in those states that have no law about this sort of thing, local law enforcement has no jurisdiction. matter of fact, i was told by an atf agent that local law enforcement has no business asking to see your paperwork even if you have a genuine title II device.

anyway, i'm not concerned about it. it looks to be perfectly legal so i'm not going to concern myself with what other people might think about it. hell, there are plenty of folks who think my stainless mini with stainless folding stock (very pimp ) is illegal just 'cause it looks more menacing than a lever action marlin.

i only wish i'd known about this earlier.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

i was told by an atf agent that local law enforcement has no business asking to see your paperwork even if you have a genuine title II device.

Sounds like an excellent way to get your $15,000 machinegun tossed into a police evidence locker.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Sounds like an excellent way to get your $15,000 machinegun tossed into a police evidence locker.

That's going to happen anyway if you get in a position where LEOs are asking about the weapon.

Technically it doesn't matter. In most states where NFA weapon possession is legal, it is NOT generally a defense to ARREST but a defense against PROSECUTION.

In Texas for example, just showing an officer your tax stamp will not keep you from being arrested if the officer really wants to push it.

Having the tax stamp will only save you from prosecution.

So, it IS a tax form, not a permit. You are not required to share your personal tax information with law enforcement, and if the LEO is going to be a problem for you, you're going to jail whether you show that tax stamp or not.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Now, besides the obvious legal arguments, I cant' get it to work in my Mini.

I have the trigger group here in front of me, and I've stuffed a staple in there every way I can think of, but the secondary sear still performs its' function just like always.

All I seem to be doing with the staple is causing some friction.

Anyone have another photo with the staple actually installed?

 

[Badger Arms]

Anyone have another photo with the staple actually installed?

No, but if you look at page 1, it shows the trigger group with a red circle around the area where it needs to go. You slip the rear half under the secondary sear at that point. It moves the secondary sear (The one on the bottom of the photo) back slightly. It shouldn't cause any friction if you're doing it right. I'll have to break out my Mini later and do a more comprehensive photo. In fact, I'll use my fake (uh... forged... I mean REAL) letter from the BATFE as a backdrop.

 

[TexasRifleman]

This modification IS legal, probably the only reason you don't see people selling trigger groups that do this is for concern of negligent discharges due to a lack of user understanding in how it works. I, personally think it could be used safely, others do not think it fit for use. Its a matter of opinion but, I think as long as you pull and release the trigger every time you should have no trouble with safety issues.

I see now sitting here at my desk playing with the trigger group.

The reason I don't think you see people doing this more is that the thickness of the staple is CRITICAL. If you push the secondary too far back it never catches the hammer and you will get hammer follow.

Now, I have had this Mini 14 for close to 20 years and I know it won't fire because of hammer follow, Bill Ruger did indeed design that safety feature well. I have seen Mini's with the secondary totally removed still only fire one shot, so in the video it is NOT firing from hammer follow.

There are other methods of delaying the hammer drop that work, but are not appropriate to discuss here.

What you end up with is a sear engagement of MAYBE a couple of thousandths, if that. I can see where you'd get several hammer follows in one mag and have to pull the charging handle to start over.

I don't see how you could ever make it reliable without actually machining a new secondary sear to get a bit more secondary engagement.

Although legal, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to file this one in the "interesting to know but not reliable enough to fool with" bucket.

I think if someone could make this reliable and selectable it would be a very neat gadget.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

That's going to happen anyway if you get in a position where LEOs are asking about the weapon.

Oddly enough, I've never been asked to see my Form 4s while shooting my machineguns with cops around/showing up. The only thing they ask is if they can shoot it. They seem more interested in suppressors than machineguns, but I guess they think if your dumb enough to be shooting in front of them, you must be legal.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Oddly enough, I've never been asked to see my Form 4s while shooting my machineguns with cops around/showing up. The only thing they ask is if they can shoot it. They seem more interested in suppressors than machineguns, but I guess they think if your dumb enough to be shooting in front of them, you must be legal.

That's the attitude I get too, they usually want to play with the toys.

That's why I think that if you get to a point where law enforcement is asking for paperwork, you're way past screwed

 

[Badger Arms]

The Class-III group I hang out with was approached by cops once. At the session, they had possibly 30-40 different registered devices. The biggest LE dealer in the state was there as well. After realizing it would take hours to check on each and every device, they gave up and assumed they all must know what they were doing. Incidentally, they came out to investigate a claim (IIRC) that somebody was firing tracers at aircraft taking off from Anchorage International Airport. You know, I'm glad they investigated for safety's sake. Of course, the Aircraft are at 10,000 feet passing over our shooting area, so it shouldn't have been a concern, IMO.

Forgot to add pictures of the troll and his Trigger group captured from his 'underground' video:

 

[Badger Arms]

incidentally, one should remember that some states have laws about "machineguns" that may be written in such a way that this would qualify.

Good point. I'm in Alaska and they have no such 'trick' laws. I think California has a law about the Hellfire which might apply, but I don't have the time to read California laws.

 

[Domino]

Good point. I'm in Alaska and they have no such 'trick' laws. I think California has a law about the Hellfire which might apply, but I don't have the time to read California laws.

No kidding, The State of California has over 50 pages of firearms laws Wayy to much to actually read and comprehend.

I think if someone could make this reliable and selectable it would be a very neat gadget.

I would have to agree here, I haven't tried this modification but it seems like it may require a fair amount of tinkering to get it to work properly. Either way, caution must be used and considerations must be taken when attempting something like this.

I would like to see someone actaully make drop-in parts or trigger groups that do this "release firing" safely and reliably with a selector switch. I want to see these on AR-15's and AK-47's, that would be neat.

 

[Badger Arms]

I would have to agree here, I haven't tried this modification but it seems like it may require a fair amount of tinkering to get it to work properly. Either way, caution must be used and considerations must be taken when attempting something like this.

I've heard this echoed a few times. Fact is, it's NOT that critical. There was more than enough engagement on my group with the staple installed and the trigger pulled to the rear. I've got the photos and will endeavour to edit and post them when time allows. I do have a life.

What I should also point out is that that if you are 'iffy' about pulling or releasing the trigger COMPLETELY when you fire this, the hammer will fall too early. Remember to both PULL and RELEASE with AUTHORITY. The reason is the basis of what we are talking about here. Half-way through the trigger pull, the hammer would be allowed to follow the bolt home as at this point, neither sear surface (primary or secondary) would engage the hammer.

 

[Letalis]

New to this site...not to this subject

I have modified a Maadi AK to fire on pull and release and really like it. I consider the "two-shot burst" to be much more efficient than the three-shot version included on most modern FA weapons. From what I read, the Russian AN-94 assault rifle has a very fast two-shot function. Supposedly, the two shots are so fast that they sound like one shot.

I did the mods to my AK...to the hammer, trigger, and disconnector...myself. Would love for someone to offer a drop-in AR trigger assembly that had this function. Don't own a Mini-14, but am considering the purchase of a FA capable transferable Mini-14 that was converted with M-14 parts.

 

[puter345]

different picture

that display picture of the trigger and where to put the modifier "staple" was just wondering if you could show a picture of how it looks with the staple in it?

 

[AgentOrange]

i dont want anyone to think im a troll or anything. best thing to do is not to do it, and write into the atf yourself and request the info, and get your own letter.

 

[Badger Arms]

Troll... but where's the rest of the story? BTW, it's NOT firing full auto as you say in the above post, you may think it is because you don't fully understand that there is a distinct function of the trigger for each shot. Bump firing would have gotten you to the same place, btw.

 

[Badger Arms]

Ah, there's the rest of the story. Complete BS flag. We've already had trolls on this thread before. Yes, it's legal. No nobody's been successfully prosecuted for having done it. Yes, law enforcement may mess with you over it, that's why I suggested not doing it.

As for the particulars, I WROTE THE LETTER to the BATFE and got the response. It's got the galdarned tracking number on it and a date. It takes two minutes to find who wrote the letter. Nice try if it's the same guy. Cute name. Where have I seen it before?