Ruger mini 14 vs AR15 accuracy challenge. Calling all Ruger Mini14 shooters
- Thread starter R.W.Dale
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R.W.Dale
Member
STOP!
Dangit! I'll freely admit that I may not disagree with what's been said but darn it for this thread to work at all I have to keep it unlocked for another month and a half. Up till this point we may not have bowled straight down the center of the lane but we've managed to keep this ball out of the gutter, lets try to keep it that way!
SO PLEASE TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC for crying out loud!
Dangit! I'll freely admit that I may not disagree with what's been said but darn it for this thread to work at all I have to keep it unlocked for another month and a half. Up till this point we may not have bowled straight down the center of the lane but we've managed to keep this ball out of the gutter, lets try to keep it that way!
SO PLEASE TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC for crying out loud!
Matt-J2
Member
If I make it out this weekend, then I'll attempt the challenge and post pics of the targets.
McBuck
Member
hmm... I only see one target from the AR folks.
and that was from the initator of the challenge. Even that target took Krochus eighteen days, and that was from the challenger. As a rule it takes time to plan a trip for some selfish "me time". A lot is going on right now with people.
Thank you Krochus. While you and I have differing opinions, I appreciate you calling the thread into order. I will post my 100yd attempt as soon as I can get to the range. I must note though, that you have given a very liberal time limit.
The anxious board members here are mostly part of the "McDonalds Generation" and want theirs through the drive thru window. Patience is a virture that not many have, and a large dose of patience is what is needed from us all right now. The crush of two holidays, and the urgency of deer season will keep quite a few people from the range, save those people that live in an absolute rural setting and can shoot right out the back door. The Mini, may or may not be able to meet the challenge guidelines, but I am willing to bet that Mini owners will post plenty of targets as time permits. I am sure there will be some impressive targets, and perhaps even some surprised Mini owners; some may not like their surprise, and some may love it. But again, thank you krochus for sending a message to the board that we need to keep it an adult disagreement, and not an adolescent argument.
and that was from the initator of the challenge. Even that target took Krochus eighteen days, and that was from the challenger. As a rule it takes time to plan a trip for some selfish "me time". A lot is going on right now with people.Thank you Krochus. While you and I have differing opinions, I appreciate you calling the thread into order. I will post my 100yd attempt as soon as I can get to the range. I must note though, that you have given a very liberal time limit.
The anxious board members here are mostly part of the "McDonalds Generation" and want theirs through the drive thru window. Patience is a virture that not many have, and a large dose of patience is what is needed from us all right now. The crush of two holidays, and the urgency of deer season will keep quite a few people from the range, save those people that live in an absolute rural setting and can shoot right out the back door. The Mini, may or may not be able to meet the challenge guidelines, but I am willing to bet that Mini owners will post plenty of targets as time permits. I am sure there will be some impressive targets, and perhaps even some surprised Mini owners; some may not like their surprise, and some may love it. But again, thank you krochus for sending a message to the board that we need to keep it an adult disagreement, and not an adolescent argument.
67rschev
Member
Benzy
Thanks for the info . At that price point I might piece one together and sneak it into my man-cave without the wife finding out . Seems like it would be a decent base model to build onto if I decide to take on another toy project .
Frankiestoys
Not a bad groups at all ! Sounds like your Mini is relatively new , so dont fret . I felt like mine didn't really start shooting consistently until I hit around the 400 round mark . I'm sure the production tolerances at Ruger are iffy at best , and the lands needed to get worn in a little for consistent chambering of the round . Mine still prefers a reactively short OCL round , as in that last outing the bulk 55 gr out-shot some 69 gr factory PRVI match rounds I shot at 75 . I haven't checked head-space , so we will see . I still am fighting a first round low and left issue , so I know when I'm manually charging the first round , its not the same as when the gas system loads the riffle . There again the more use , the better and more consistent it will become .
Strambo
Thanks for the vote of confidence ! I have all ready proved that the riffle is capable enough and CAN shot what the OP said couldn't be done . He wanted 2.5 in and i came in under 2 . I guess it just now comes down to if I'm a good enough rifleman to get the job done . Problem is , the only riffle Ive ever really worked with and shot , other than some 22 plinkers , with opens is my fathers ( hopefully soon to be mine !) Garand , and you could train a monkey to shoot a M1 accurately with those irons . So we will see , no pun intended . If I cant , it only proves the OP is a better marksman than I , and not that the Mini isn't capable of shooting to his criteria . There are many other rifleman that i have seen that indeed can do it easily , but they are just not interested in getting into just another Mini vs AR pissing match with someone and their my toy is better and cooler than your toy complex . Just for the record YES , I agree with most of you , an AR is a more accurate weapon platform than a mini . Nobrainer
Thanks for the info . At that price point I might piece one together and sneak it into my man-cave without the wife finding out . Seems like it would be a decent base model to build onto if I decide to take on another toy project .
Frankiestoys
Not a bad groups at all ! Sounds like your Mini is relatively new , so dont fret . I felt like mine didn't really start shooting consistently until I hit around the 400 round mark . I'm sure the production tolerances at Ruger are iffy at best , and the lands needed to get worn in a little for consistent chambering of the round . Mine still prefers a reactively short OCL round , as in that last outing the bulk 55 gr out-shot some 69 gr factory PRVI match rounds I shot at 75 . I haven't checked head-space , so we will see . I still am fighting a first round low and left issue , so I know when I'm manually charging the first round , its not the same as when the gas system loads the riffle . There again the more use , the better and more consistent it will become .
Strambo
Thanks for the vote of confidence ! I have all ready proved that the riffle is capable enough and CAN shot what the OP said couldn't be done . He wanted 2.5 in and i came in under 2 . I guess it just now comes down to if I'm a good enough rifleman to get the job done . Problem is , the only riffle Ive ever really worked with and shot , other than some 22 plinkers , with opens is my fathers ( hopefully soon to be mine !) Garand , and you could train a monkey to shoot a M1 accurately with those irons . So we will see , no pun intended . If I cant , it only proves the OP is a better marksman than I , and not that the Mini isn't capable of shooting to his criteria . There are many other rifleman that i have seen that indeed can do it easily , but they are just not interested in getting into just another Mini vs AR pissing match with someone and their my toy is better and cooler than your toy complex . Just for the record YES , I agree with most of you , an AR is a more accurate weapon platform than a mini . Nobrainer
2dumb2kwit
Member
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2009
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- 3
Hello all. I'm new here. I followed a link from the perfect union forum, mainly because I'm nosey. LOL
I don't have any targets to post, that qualify, but I'd be glad to share with y'all what my mini has done. I'm not worried about the challenge....I'm just here to share some info.
My mini is stock out of the box, with the exception of a cheap 3-9x40 scope. It's the so called "tactical" model. (18" barrel w/flash-hider.)
This target was shot at 100 yds, from a bench, using my ammo bag as a rest. 5 shots, about 5 seconds apart. Ammo was Wolf military classic. Believe it or not, that's what my mini liked the best, out of 8 kinds of ammo that I've tried. LOL Go figure.
EDIT: oops....it's a 16.12" barrel.
I don't have any targets to post, that qualify, but I'd be glad to share with y'all what my mini has done. I'm not worried about the challenge....I'm just here to share some info.
My mini is stock out of the box, with the exception of a cheap 3-9x40 scope. It's the so called "tactical" model. (18" barrel w/flash-hider.)
This target was shot at 100 yds, from a bench, using my ammo bag as a rest. 5 shots, about 5 seconds apart. Ammo was Wolf military classic. Believe it or not, that's what my mini liked the best, out of 8 kinds of ammo that I've tried. LOL Go figure.
EDIT: oops....it's a 16.12" barrel.
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2dumb2kwit
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- Dec 14, 2009
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Oh...just to clarify.....this is my best group.
Typical groups run 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yds. This is with me shooting.(I'm not very good.) Since that target, my mini killed that cheap scope, and I haven't really done any "target" shooting with it since then.
Typical groups run 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yds. This is with me shooting.(I'm not very good.) Since that target, my mini killed that cheap scope, and I haven't really done any "target" shooting with it since then.
I just traded my mini a while back because it wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside. My eyes arent good enough for that at 100 yards and open sights, if I can talk my brother into doing it on the next nice day I'll try to get more AR targets for the thread.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
A standard variety, non-top-of-line AR does what for MOA? Two? Three? I'm not talking about stuff like a CMMG complete upper for $600 or $700 or thereabouts. More like the original Colts that first came out before the A2.
Those generally compare to the Mini. And as I've noted many times, the Mini is nowhere near being a benchrest target rifle. It's a hellaciously good hunting rifle. Works real good on jackrabbits and coyotes, where the reliability of the first shot's POI is important.
I'm on my fifth AR, now. And, yup, a CMMG complete upper along with the A2 upper. Shoots good.
I've had four Minis; none on hand right now. No real reason; just worked out that way.
But if I wuz calling coyotes, either a Mini or an AR would work as good as my Sako .243 or my Ruger .223 or my Rem700Ti 7mm08 or my Weatherby '06.
And none of them would work as benchrest competition shooters.
For all that I've been messin' with guns for over 65 years, I save my emotional attachments for friends, women and dogs. Not guns. A gun is just a tool. If it serves my intended purpose, I'm happy. If it doesn't, I don't own it and don't worry about it.
And I guess that any other comment about it and I'd have to ban myself.
Those generally compare to the Mini. And as I've noted many times, the Mini is nowhere near being a benchrest target rifle. It's a hellaciously good hunting rifle. Works real good on jackrabbits and coyotes, where the reliability of the first shot's POI is important.
I'm on my fifth AR, now. And, yup, a CMMG complete upper along with the A2 upper. Shoots good.
I've had four Minis; none on hand right now. No real reason; just worked out that way.
But if I wuz calling coyotes, either a Mini or an AR would work as good as my Sako .243 or my Ruger .223 or my Rem700Ti 7mm08 or my Weatherby '06.
And none of them would work as benchrest competition shooters.
For all that I've been messin' with guns for over 65 years, I save my emotional attachments for friends, women and dogs. Not guns. A gun is just a tool. If it serves my intended purpose, I'm happy. If it doesn't, I don't own it and don't worry about it.
And I guess that any other comment about it and I'd have to ban myself.
ILikeLead
Member
After reading this thread, I brought the mini to the "range" last weekend with other guns, just to see what looking through that peep and across that front post would be at 100 yards. My front post covers 12 inches in width at 100 yards. That's simple extrapolation. How in the WORLD can one shoot a 2 inch group with a 1 foot bead at 100 yards? I considered using the corner of the front post just to see if I could be consistent and the best I could do was about 5 inch groups.... uhh patterns.
I would really have to appreciate anyone who could shoot a 2 inch group with any iron sights at 100 yards...
Carry On,
Corey
I would really have to appreciate anyone who could shoot a 2 inch group with any iron sights at 100 yards...
Carry On,
Corey
R.W.Dale
Member
You focus on the entire front sights placement in the target and not so much the sight top itself.
IE look around the edges of the front sight post and make sure you have the same amount of "target" overlapping each side
How thick is a mini Barrel? My AR's barrel is only .680" to .60" under the handguard and a mere .584" forward of the FSB
So far the only AR that's been shot in this challange is a COLT USGI 603 upper and from what I've seen thus far the MINI's ARE NOT comparable
Hey all,
I really have to ask this question...... is 2.5 MOA really considered mediocre accuracy? I do own a mini....one of the 580 series with the skinny barrel. I am sure my shoot groups are probably in the 3-4 MOA range, which is also about the size of the groups I get out of my Garand, and probably what I shoot with the M4 Uncle Sam allows me to shoot. All with Iron sights. Lord knows I ain't the best shot in the world but seriously....2.5 MOA mediocre?
I really have to ask this question...... is 2.5 MOA really considered mediocre accuracy? I do own a mini....one of the 580 series with the skinny barrel. I am sure my shoot groups are probably in the 3-4 MOA range, which is also about the size of the groups I get out of my Garand, and probably what I shoot with the M4 Uncle Sam allows me to shoot. All with Iron sights. Lord knows I ain't the best shot in the world but seriously....2.5 MOA mediocre?
msgsummit; You are asking the right type of questions.
For a detailed discussion on the matter, take a look here;
" http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218&page=1 " by "Molon". AR Discussions; The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups (plus - The Texas Sharpshooter - page 10). It was started in 4/2006, and is STILL running.
It talks about the method of using average mean radius to determine actual shot accuracy, based on statistics. It's the method used by the US Military to set accuracy standards for its ammo.
I use this method, AMR, to determine how well I'm doing with my rifle and ammo.
Link fixed.
For a detailed discussion on the matter, take a look here;
" http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218&page=1 " by "Molon". AR Discussions; The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups (plus - The Texas Sharpshooter - page 10). It was started in 4/2006, and is STILL running.
It talks about the method of using average mean radius to determine actual shot accuracy, based on statistics. It's the method used by the US Military to set accuracy standards for its ammo.
I use this method, AMR, to determine how well I'm doing with my rifle and ammo.
Link fixed.
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ECVMatt
Member
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- Jan 7, 2004
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- 2,867
I saw Tactical Impact the other night and the guy who was the former SEAL was sighting an M-4 with an Aimpoint. He shot a group at 100 yards about the size of his open hand, about 4 or 5 inches. He stated, "Now this rifle is ready for combat".
I am trying to go to the range tomorrow. I am going to bring my 580 mini and a Eagle Arms ER-15 A2. It is a standard barrel with no dodads or wigets attached. If it works out I will post some pictures tomorrow.
I am trying to go to the range tomorrow. I am going to bring my 580 mini and a Eagle Arms ER-15 A2. It is a standard barrel with no dodads or wigets attached. If it works out I will post some pictures tomorrow.
masterPsmith
Member
Well I decided to take up the challenge. Went out and shot a little while ago. Both targets from bench @ 100 yards, 5 rounds each and both targets in less than three minutes. I used Winchester white box 5.56 55gr ammo as I did not want to burn up my match ammo. I heard of this challenge from over on perfectunion.com and that is where I am from as well as firearmstalk.com.
I hope I will be welcome here as one of you.
Below are todays results:
Jim......................
I hope I will be welcome here as one of you.
Below are todays results:
Jim......................
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67rschev
Member
Nice work Jim , Great to see a true marksman with a mini step up to the plate .
R.W.Dale
Member
First off welcome to THR
Please share with us more details about the rifle and modifications and the results.
Please share with us more details about the rifle and modifications and the results.
masterPsmith
Member
It is a 186 series, standard stainless Mini-14. Mods are as following: ACG barrel strut and clamps, ACG .060 gas port bushing, ACG Match Trigger which breaks @ around 3 pounds, front and rear buffers, Williams Foolproof rear target sight with the front sight narrowed to .070", the muzzle brake is an ACG prototype, a lot of polished stainless for bling, Harris Bi-Pod, barrel is a 1:7 twist. It is sub MOA when scoped. All work was done by me in my shop (formally Alvord Custom Guns). I have been smithing and accurizing the Mini-14 platform sense back in the 70s. Although semi-retired now, I have been a gunsmith for over 43 years. Glad to be aboard here on the highroad......................
Jim..................
Jim..................
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waterhouse
Member
Nice shooting masterP.
So, is that a winner for the ammo?
So, is that a winner for the ammo?
R.W.Dale
Member
It would appear to be the case. I'll type up something more detailed and update the leaderboard when I get home as I'm on an iPhone now.
McBuck
Member
From your OP Krochus, "match expires 2-1-10" That would give some other Mini shooters the opportunity to match or beat masterPsmith's shot strings. I am more than happy for him, and doubt that I could, but I do want the opportunity to get to the range and see what I can do. The deer season is still in here in Georgia, so most of my free time is spent deer hunting. The weather hasd not been real agreeable either, but the rules state that the "match expires 2-21-10"
If you want to close it to the ammo , then that is fine by me....masterPsmith deserves it, but give some other Mini shooters the chance to prove what the Mini can do.
If you want to close it to the ammo , then that is fine by me....masterPsmith deserves it, but give some other Mini shooters the chance to prove what the Mini can do.
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