Rule 1!

[jakemccoy]

Imagine you're teaching someone to safely handle a firearm and you tell them, “Rule one is that all guns are always loaded!” Now imagine that same person sees you later dry-firing your gun. His or her question to you is, “Hey, didn’t you tell me, emphatically, that all guns are always loaded? You certainly don’t seem to be treating that gun as though it were loaded.”

When I dry fire, I only point the gun at something that I'm willing to destroy. If I can't find such a backstop, then I don't dry fire. After all, the darn thing IS LOADED.

Now, since you are able to get yourself to a point that you say the gun is unloaded, then what's stopping you from pointing the gun at whatever you want? Is it the other rules? But your gun is not loaded, remember? So, why would you bother following the other rules at that point?

 

[shockwave]

Imagine you're teaching someone to safely handle a firearm and you tell them, “Rule one is that all guns are always loaded!”

Funny you should mention this. A friend wanted to go out shooting with me and see what it was like, so we sat down beforehand and reviewed the rules of safe handling. What I told him first was that you always "assume the gun is loaded." If you've cleared the magazine or chambers, performed a visual inspection, checked for one in the receiver, etc., and thoroughly confirmed that the gun is unloaded, then you aren't assuming anything anymore.

Also, if I'm at the table cleaning a gun, it stays pointed away from me, away from anyone else at the table and is pointed in a safe direction (safe backstop). These are just habits that are good to make automatic and reflexive.

Let's look at the OP's story again: If the gun was pointed in a safe direction, then even if it discharged no one would be injured. The rules of safety overlap in a very clever way.

 

[Dnaltrop]

20 years ago, one of my stupider friends knew about my family's shooting habits, and like many other idiotic teens took me upstairs to his Parent's bedroom and proceeded to draw a 9 mm Semi from underneath the mattress to try and impress me.

He proceeds to check the currently Empty chamber by pulling the slide, and begins to withdraw the clip.

I had enough time to utter, "Watch out, you just chambered"-"NO I didn't ~BANG~
The slug passed 12 inches to my left, threaded itself between a lamp, family photos, and gouged a 9 inch long cut in the wall before exiting the house.

1) ALWAYS LOADED, unless you have it disassembled... and even then, post a sign nearby advising against inserting the varied parts of the gun into any bodily orifices. (to avoid liability)

2) if you don't want something dead, keep it pointed downrange.

And for god's sakes, never underestimate the curiosity of kids trying to show off.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Mine are always loaded. Not as a reinforcement of the rule, but quite literallly, they're always loaded. I'll never be that guy who say's "I thought it wasn't loaded". I know they are.

 

[Mainsail]

Now, since you are able to get yourself to a point that you say the gun is unloaded, then what's stopping you from pointing the gun at whatever you want? Is it the other rules? But your gun is not loaded, remember? So, why would you bother following the other rules at that point?

Ok, I let it go since some people are so thin-skinned and weak minded…. but since you brought it up.

First, I always follow all the rules. Period.

The rule we refer to as Rule One is where there seems to be some debate. I’ve made the statement that a rule, by definition, must be inviolate or it’s a lie. So, what is Rule One?

All guns are always loaded? Or All guns are loaded until you verify that they are not?

The latter is the rule as I know it, and the rule that we all follow even if you claim the former. I made the statement that all guns are not always loaded, because if they were we would never dry-fire, clean, or hand them to a friend. I would not clean, dry-fire, or hand a loaded gun to a friend. Ever. Also, if all guns are always loaded, then you bought a loaded gun and you have no need to load it more before you carry it.

Some claim it’s all semantics or word play, but it’s not. The rule must be inviolate or it’s a lie. And it’s a dangerous lie at that. The rules must be followed all the time, under any circumstance. If you claim that Rule One is, “all guns are always loaded” and you treat it as though it’s not (by cleaning, dry-firing, etc.) then you are not truthfully following the rule.

Now, you asked,

But your gun is not loaded, remember? So, why would you bother following the other rules at that point?

I follow the other rules because I follow all the rules, all the time, remember? Just because I have verified that my gun is unloaded, and can now clean it or dry fire it, it does not under any circumstance mean that I’m suddenly going to start treating it carelessly! Just because the rule was dumbed down for a dumb audience, dos not obligate me to drink the koolaid along with them. I follow the rule as it was originally written, that all guns are to be treated as though they are loaded until I have verified that they are not. I have followed Rule One, just because it isn’t your version of rule one doesn’t make me a breaker of the Rule.

 

[jakemccoy]

I follow the other rules because I follow all the rules, all the time, remember? Just because I have verified that my gun is unloaded, and can now clean it or dry fire it, it does not under any circumstance mean that I’m suddenly going to start treating it carelessly! Just because the rule was dumbed down for a dumb audience, dos not obligate me to drink the koolaid along with them. I follow the rule as it was originally written, that all guns are to be treated as though they are loaded until I have verified that they are not. I have followed Rule One, just because it isn’t your version of rule one doesn’t make me a breaker of the Rule.

Here are the original Gun Safety Rules, as written by Jeff Cooper:

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEHIND IT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper
http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

Your reasoning is quite common, but it is flawed. Your reasoning requires someone never to have a dumb moment. My intelligence is above average, but I definitely do have dumb moments. I don't trust anybody who claims they don't. I would like the Four Safety Rules to take care of the least common denominator inside of me.

Here's an example of how your reasoning is flawed. Let's say you're about to strip your gun. You check the gun 10 times and are comfortable with treating the gun as if it's unloaded. You go to pull the trigger because you have to pull the trigger to release the slide. That's fine because you've determined the gun is unloaded. For whatever strange reason, the gun fires when you pull the trigger. Using your reasoning, you can say that the gun firing was an "accident" because you checked 10 times to verify the gun was unloaded.

In contrast, I say, no, the gun is loaded until the gun ceases to be a gun, for example, when the gun parts are disassembled. So, when I go to strip the gun, I'm fully aware that "all guns are always loaded". I check 10 times to see if a round is in there. Nope, there is no round. I go to pull the trigger, pointing the gun in a safe direction because the darn thing IS LOADED even though I checked. For whatever strange reason, the gun fires when I pull the trigger. Instead of me being able to shrug off the incident as an "accident", I have to man up and take responsibility for some sort of negligence. Negligence is fixable behavior.

 

[Mick3411]

I have to admit to a ND this week. It is really embarrassing and truly all my fault. I was shooting in what is called a "tactical shoot" at my range. You load 10 rounds in two mags and move between barriers and shot at the "right, i.e bad guy" targets. Anyway, I completed the course, drop the mag, and without checking the chamber, drop the hammer (after all I fired 20 rounds). BANG! I must have loaded 11 rounds in the mag. Luckily it was pointed down range, but I felt like a jerk. I had made a huge assumption and didnt check the chamber. Lesson (luckily without incident) learned on my part

Mick

 

[mljdeckard]

There will be those who will try to scold you for leaving a round in the chamber and forgetting it was there. I will not do this. You followed the rules, and checked the weapon EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE THE LAST ONE TO USE IT. You willingness to be redundant in following safety rules made you and everyone around you safer.

 

[Mainsail]

You check the gun 10 times and are comfortable with treating the gun as if it's unloaded. You go to pull the trigger because you have to pull the trigger to release the slide. That's fine because you've determined the gun is unloaded. For whatever strange reason, the gun fires when you pull the trigger.

If you check the gun once and confirm it’s unloaded, it’s unloaded. Most of us like to give it the once over a couple more times to be sure, but if you checked it properly and it’s unloaded, it’s unloaded. What you are describing is impossible. If the gun is confirmed unloaded, it cannot possibly go off. Well, unless you really didn’t check it properly. In that case, it’s not magic or voodoo or whatever, it’s complacency or carelessness. People make a lot of excuses why their gun just ‘went off’ but it’s exactly that, an excuse. Unloaded guns do not fire, it’s completely impossible.

 

[jakemccoy]

If you check the gun once and confirm it’s unloaded, it’s unloaded. Most of us like to give it the once over a couple more times to be sure, but if you checked it properly and it’s unloaded, it’s unloaded. What you are describing is impossible. If the gun is confirmed unloaded, it cannot possibly go off. Well, unless you really didn’t check it properly. In that case, it’s not magic or voodoo or whatever, it’s complacency or carelessness. People make a lot of excuses why their gun just ‘went off’ but it’s exactly that, an excuse. Unloaded guns do not fire, it’s completely impossible.

You must be going too fast because I surely hope you don't believe what you've wrote. Your first sentence is wrong right off the bat without even referring to Rule 1. You said a gun is unloaded if you've confirmed it's unloaded. That's incorrect, and I'm not even referring to Rule 1. It's possible for a human to confirm that a gun is unloaded while the gun is, nevertheless, actually loaded with a real live round in the chamber. (Again, I'm not even referring to Rule 1.) Humans make mistakes. The chance of making such a mistake may be extremely small for some humans, but the chance is still there for all humans. It's the pinnacle of arrogance to say such a mistake is impossible.

 

[FoMoGo]

I open the cyl on my revolvers and look thru them... It IS unloaded.
I drop the mag on my autoloaders, lock the slide back, visually check the chamber, poke a finger in the chamber... no cartridge... it IS unloaded.
I break my coach gun open and check the chambers... look thro the barral from the breech... it IS unloaded.
If you PROPERLY check that the weapon is unloaded... it IS unloaded.
If you screw it up... then, well... you roll the dice.


Jim

 

[shockwave]

I’ve made the statement that a rule, by definition, must be inviolate or it’s a lie.

First off, let me say that this may be the most important discussion currently happening at High Road. So my "thank you" is extended to you readers.

Again, what is Rule One? The gun can fire a projectile. The easiest way to ensure you do not injure an innocent to not point the gun at one. Don't point the gun at someone unless you are willing to shoot them.

OK. So maybe you're cleaning your gun after a day of shooting. If I am in your home and we are talking or whatever and you point the gun you're cleaning at me I will be alarmed. Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

The word "rule" is also a cognate for "guideline." Try thinking of it that way.

 

[lions]

At first I thought mainsail was caught up in semantics but the more others argue it, the more I see that wasn't the case.

It's possible for a human to confirm that a gun is unloaded while the gun is, nevertheless, actually loaded with a real live round in the chamber.

If that is the case, the gun was never confirmed to be unloaded. It may have been checked, and checked poorly, but if it was confirmed then it was confirmed, you can't have it both ways.

If you say every gun is always loaded I have two questions. Is it possible for a gun to be in a condition in which there are no cartridges in the magazine and/or chamber? If so, what would you call that condition?

Even though rule 1 as written by Col. Cooper says, all guns are always loaded, I think it is clear that it must mean either treat or assume (or insert your word of choice here) all guns are always loaded.

It's the pinnacle of arrogance to say such a mistake is impossible.

I don't think anyone is saying that making the mistake you describe is impossible. I am saying that when you confirm that the gun is unloaded and you pull the trigger to disassemble, and the gun does not go off, then the gun is and was unloaded.

 

[jakemccoy]

I open the cyl on my revolvers and look thru them... It IS unloaded.
I drop the mag on my autoloaders, lock the slide back, visually check the chamber, poke a finger in the chamber... no cartridge... it IS unloaded.
I break my coach gun open and check the chambers... look thro the barral from the breech... it IS unloaded.
If you PROPERLY check that the weapon is unloaded... it IS unloaded.
If you screw it up... then, well... you roll the dice.


Jim

I disagree. A gun is NOT unloaded merely because your five senses tell you the gun is unloaded. Your senses CAN be wrong, even though you're sure they're right. The senses getting it wrong has happened before to a human, and it will happen again. See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmRN00KbCr8

Are you the only one professional enough? This right here is the essence and purpose of Rule 1: All guns are always loaded.

 

[lions]

The gun is NOT unloaded merely because your five senses tell you the gun is unloaded.

Then how do you determine when it is safe to disassemble a gun for cleaning? I'm out of luck I guess because I got stuck with only 5 senses. It isn't magic, if you confirm the gun is unloaded, it is. If that wasn't the case we would never be able to clean our guns because we would be stuck in an endless loop of trying to verify the condition of a gun.

 

[jakemccoy]

Then how do you determine when it is safe to disassemble a gun for cleaning? I'm out of luck I guess because I got stuck with only 5 senses. It isn't magic, if you confirm the gun is unloaded, it is. If that wasn't the case we would never be able to clean our guns because we would be stuck in an endless loop of trying to verify the condition of a gun.

I covered cleaning in Post #31. And you are correct, you're senses are not good enough because it is possible for your senses to make a mistake.

=====

Here's the thing: Rule 1 is a freakin' safety rule! The ultimate purpose is to prevent someone from being killed. Having gun handlers repeat to themselves that "all guns are always loaded" will save more lives.

 

[PT1911]

if I check the gun as unloaded it is unloaded.. I will always treat a gun as though it is loaded until i can confirm without a doubt that it is unloaded.. if I put it down it is rechecked when I pick it up again... If one were to always treat a gun as loaded, they would never disassemble most guns (that require the trigger to be pulled for disassembly.. ie.. Glock, XD, M&P....etc) they would never clean the bore (or even check the bore for that matter...), and they would definitely never teach anyone how too shoot as you would never put a loaded gun into the hands of someone with no familiarity with a gun prior to extensive teaching AND UNLOADED gun handling.

Saying a gun is ALWAYS loade and should ALWAYS be treated as such is rediculous. They would always be respected.. always pointed in a safe direction, but first of all...one should always know the loaded/unloaded status by direct visualization.. THAT should be the first rule...

yes it is a safety rule.... easily understood but saying absolutely that every gun is loaded is just rediculous and no more true than saying every gun kills.

 

[lions]

...the gun is only unloaded if, in fact, the gun is unloaded. All guns are always loaded.

Do you see any problems with these two statements? I do.

Col. Cooper was clearly meant that you must treat all guns as if they are always loaded. Or, all guns are always loaded until you verify that they are not.

The only other explanation was that all of Col. Cooper's guns were literaly always loaded. Maybe that was the case, I don't know, but I do know that isn't what he meant with rule 1.

I'm out, my head hurts from the amazing difficulty derived from what should be simplicity.

 

[lions]

Nope again, I covered cleaning in Post #31.

And I covered post #31 in post #38, give it a read.

 

[jakemccoy]

Do you see any problems with these two statements? I do.

Col. Cooper was clearly meant that you must treat all guns as if they are always loaded. Or, all guns are always loaded until you verify that they are not.

The only other explanation was that all of Col. Cooper's guns were literaly always loaded. Maybe that was the case, I don't know, but I do know that isn't what he meant with rule 1.

I'm out, my head hurts from the amazing difficulty derived from would should be simplicity.

Your additional analysis has created the confusion.

What is the text of Rule 1 as written by Cooper?

But but but... you want to make it more complicated by changing the text.

 

[jakemccoy]

Do you see any problems with these two statements? I do.

No, I don't see the problem. A gun is not unloaded merely because your five senses tell you the gun is unloaded. You can check a gun a thousand times and confirm it's unloaded, but it's possible that your sense are wrong. Why is that so hard to understand? It's possible that you can, after all your checking, have the gun fire a round and that you were wrong.

 

[lions]

What is the text of Rule 1 as written by Cooper?

Humans make mistakes.

There you go.

Do you clean loaded guns? Do you dry fire loaded guns?
No, so there are clearly times when they are unloaded. That doesn't mean you can wave them around like an idiot, it just means there are no cartridges present.

 

[lions]

It's possible that you can, after all your checking, pull the trigger and have the gun fire a round.

Did I say that it wasn't?

Please enlighten me as to how you check that your guns are unloaded before you clean them.

 

[ljnowell]

what a joke this has become.

 

[lions]

what a joke this has become.

You know, I just went back to read it and you couldn't be more right. I'm done now.