Rust prevention

[Smokepole14]

I have an 1858 remington and shoot it often. I use pyrodex p since the real stuff is harder to find. I heard pyrodex was more corrosive than bp. i clean it after every shooting but was wondering if the gun does start to show signs of rusting how do you get rid of it and prevent it later on. I clean it in hot soapy water every time and dry it completely. then put some oil to keep it from rusting. just incase i seen some rust i was wondering how to take care of it any help would be great thanks.

 

[Palehorseman]

Other's mileage may vary, but I will stick with WD-40, have used it for decades and no rust problems,

 

[mykeal]

There are a number of commercially available rust removal products (WD-40 is NOT one of them), but you need to be careful that they don't damage the metal finish. Naval Jelly, for instance, will remove both the rust and bluing. I use a product called Blue Wonder that's designed for use on guns; the products used for freeing corroded fasteners such as Kroil and Liquid Wrench will also work.

For cleaning rust from a bore I wrap a layer of 0000 steel wool around a jag sized for the bore caliber, then saturate it with the Blue Wonder and scrub the bore several dozen times.

Rust prevention is just as easy. Again, there are a number of good products. I used Ballistol for years with good success and just recently started using a Birchwood Casey product called Barricade (formerly Sheath); it's proving to be an excellent product.

Just a word about WD-40; many people use it for rust prevention, but you need to understand that's not what it's intended for. It does remove moisture, and in that sense it is anti-rust, but it does not fully seal the surface from the other source of oxygen - the air. In order for it to work as a rust preventative you must be sure to get complete coverage with a heavy coat. And then be prepared for a bit of cleaning later.

 

[Pancho]

Pyrodex is not a problem if you use the due diligence you describe just make sure you remove any moisture from the gun before you treat it with a good rust preventative and lube. I prefer Ballistol. Ballistol both removes moisture and it lubes and protects. Store your gun in a dry place and you won't have any problems. Actually I store my muzzleloaders in my clothes closet, the clothes act as a desiccant. If you see rust and catch it early another treatment with rust preventative and lube should do the trick but if you don't catch it early the rust will pit and you're screwed.

 

[Hawkeye748]

There is a special cleaner for Pyrodex if you can find it. Essentially, it is base to neutralize the acid formed by pyrodex and moisture. You can also use a solution of Baking soda as a step in cleaning.

Where in AL are you? Bass Pro carries real BP. Just have to ask for it.

 

[BCRider]

Other than Hawkeye's info on Pyrodex specific treatment I'd say you're doing all you can already.

The only other aspect is to provide a DRY place for the gun between sessions. That comes down to your storage provisions. One way to ensure that there is no condensation in the storage cabinet or closet is to put a regular incandescent light down at the base of the closet or cabinet. The warmth and location of the bulb will ensure that the area stays too warm for condensation to form and the low location will generate a convection circulation that will aid in avoiding stagnant spots.

 

[Rock Island]

I clean the piece with boiling water, and a lot of it in the first place to flush out any salts, the heat transfers to the metal and steams off any remaining water, then I do not spare the oil, real oil, the stuff that goes on wet and stays that way. I am going to clean the gun before next using it anyway so it will come off for shooting. I keep my pistols in air tight steel USGI 20mm ammo cans wrapped in oily rags, the long guns I watch like a hawk and oil them well. At the moment I am using up a large stockpile of USGI light weapons oil, but any wet gun oil will do, not that stuff that dries out in a day from a spray can. Do Not Spare the Oil.

 

[kanook]

I clean with hot water. And when all done I wipe the revlover or rifle down with TC bore butter (fresh pine scent). I haven't had any rust. The nice thing is my safe smells good

 

[Pancho]

This may be a goofy concern I have with "moisture displacers" like WD-40 but where does the moisture get displaced? It's not coupled or evaporated it's just "displaced". This displacement wouldn't be much of an issue with muzzleloading rifles but a revolver has all kinds of nooks for moisture to be displaced to. That's why I prefer Ballistol because it emulsifies the moisture to be wiped away and a second liberal coating takes care of even trace amounts of moisture.
As a chemistry major in college I just like Ballistol's method and system.

 

[[email protected]]

I can't believe how much mis-information is out there. First thing never never
clean your guns with hot water. This promotes rust. Second never use soap.
This promotes rust. Hot soapy water, No No. If you use real black powder
just a cold water cleaning is all that is needed. Drying and WD-40 is good.
Sounds like you guys are trying to rust your guns on purpose.

 

[BCRider]

It gets displaced away from the metal and forms drops on the film of WD40 that gets under the water and from there dries normally unless you wipe it away.

 

[BCRider]

Kwhi, for the few moments that it takes to swish the parts and use a plastic fiber brush it won't do any damage even long term. But the key is to get them dried up and oiled pretty quick like. No dunking them in the water and then go have dinner. That sort of thing WILL generate the beginnings of rusting. It's gotta be handled promptly so the metal isn't left unprotected for long at all.

Seeing as how I'm "folically challenged" these days the old hair dryer sits by the laundry tub where the guns get cleaned. A good swish in the hot soapy water and the plastic bristle brush down the bore and then a rinse of hot water. A good wipe with a towel, a patch down the bore(s) and then I hit the parts with the hair dryer on high for a bit to dry the water from any recesses such as nipple threads and the like. I only do two or three parts at a time and then oil them before moving on to the next small batch of parts. The metal is still warm from the water and hair dryer when the oil goes on. Not a single spec of rust has time to form from the metal being unprotected for that short a time.

 

[mykeal]

There's no chemical advantage to cleaning black powder combustion byproducts with hot water rather than cold water; both dissolve the salts and carry away the insoluble compounds. Heat does in fact speed up the process of oxidation, which is essentially rusting. However, the small amount of heat in hot water doesn't materially speed up the reaction and the warm metal does promote evaporation (slightly). The chief advantage to using hot water seems to be promoting better flow of the rust preventative oils (Ballistol, Bore Butter, etc.) by warming up the metal surface.

I don't understand the soap comment. I don't see how soaps or detergents promote oxidation. What am I missing there?

By the way, Bore Butter is not per se a rust preventative. It does coat the surface of the metal with a barrier to free oxygen and moisture. However, it does not displace or bond with standing water and can trap it UNDER the film just as effectively as it prevents it from reaching the surface from the outside. If you haven't thoroughly dried the metal before applying the Bore Butter you could actually be promoting rust. The same is not true about Ballistol or the other mineral oil based products.

 

[sonier]

I wouldnt use steel wool, personally from shooting lots of centerfire i just am to picky and worried about scratching barrels with it, there are some nice nylon brushes they make these days that are really stiff and strong they work excellent. I know brake fluid will remove rust and 100 rounds of fired blackpowder cartridge residue left in a barrel for 8 months took about 10 passes with bristle brush and few dry patches to pick up the residue, make sure you clean out all of the brake fluid, and i always coat my barrels with light coat of trans fluid. No one knows if it will remove bluing yet but if your slightest worried about bluing dont use brake fluid. besides that theres plenty of liquids they sell to remove rust and corrosion.

 

[TheRodDoc]

Hot water only lets the metal rust faster then cold for it has taken any oils from the metal where cold doesn't. But that is the only reason.

Boiling water is what was always used if possable in 1870's.

The man I was telling you about that started that hardware store and gunsmith shop enlisted in the thirty-second Ohio infantry company A. In August of 1861 at Mansfield Ohio.
He was wonded Aug 14, 1862 at Harper's Ferry and was discharged from a houspital in Annapolis, MD. in 1863.
Built the store in the small town near me in 1873.

I have some print that he once had that tells a few interesting things about preventing rust on guns.

Here is a couple of them. With some things I don't even know what they are. Copyed from one page about rust prevention of guns.

1872

To Clean a Shot Gun or Rifle.
Wrap clean towel around the cleaning rod; then take a bucket of boiling teapot water - soap-suds if procurable - and run the rod up and down the barrel briskly until the water is quite black. Change the water until it runs quite clear through the. nipple; pour clean teapot water down the barrel, and rub dry with fresh clean tow; run a little sweet oil on towel down the barrel for use. To clean the stock, rub it with linseed oil. If boiling hot water is used the barrel will dry sooner, and no fear need be apprehended of its injuring the temper of a fine gun. Some sportsmen use boiling vinegar, but we cannot recommend this method. The reason hot water does not injure the gun, is that boiling water is only 212° Fahr., and the gun was heated to 450° to give it its proper temper.

Grease for Anointing Gun-Barrels on the Sea-Shore.
It is said that an ointment made of corrosive sublimate and lard will prove an effectual protection against the rusting of gun-barrels on the sea-shore.

To Protect Polished Steel from Rust.
Nothing is equal to pure paraffine for preserving the polished surface of iron and steel from oxidation. The paraffine should he warmed, rubhed on, and then wiped off with a woolen rag. It will not change the color, whether bright or blue, and will protect the surface better than any varnish.

To Protect Polished Metal from Rust.
Take 10 pounds gutta-percha, 20 pounds mutton suet, 30 pounds beef suet, 2 gallons neats' foot oil, and 1 gallon rape oil. Melt together until thoroughly dissolved and mixed, and color with a small portion of rose pink; oil of thyme or other perfuming matter may be added. "When cold the composition is to be rubbed on the surface of bright steel, iron, brass, or other metal, requiring protection from rust.

 

[rcflint]

Hot water promotes evaporation, the gun stays wet for a shorter time.

WD-40 over time dries into a sticky varnish that is a PITA to remove. Stick with proper gun lubes like Break-Free or Triflon, if you prefer thin. A heavier weight rust stopping oil is called Corrosion-X, used for aircraft and other things. I use it for longer term storage of bp guns, particularly antiques with already pitted bores.

http://www.corrosionx.com/

I use Break Free for wetting down the revolvers after cleaning. Do not have rust problems. I found Pyrodex to be a better propellant in cartridges than in loose muzzle-loader use. It seems to burn more efficiently in a cartridge. If you just can't get real black powder, then Pyrodex may be your only alternative unless you load with APP or H777.

 

[NCWanderer]

I use hot water with a little Dawn dish detergent to clean my BP revolver and use Break Free to protect it from rust. So far I haven't found a speck of Rust. Also I've used it on my cartridge guns for years and there's no rust there either.

 

[Pancho]

Mykeal, Have you followed the instructions for mixing water with ballistol for the initial cleaning. Whatever surfactants it has in make one of the nicest, tightest,emulsions I've ever seen. I left the remainder in a container to see how long the emulsion would last.
It's been a month and it's still tight. That tells me that ballistol's ability to seek out and grab moisture is superb. I later used the emulsion for swabbing between shots. Worked well. Mykeal, you mention a Blue Wonder. What kind of properties does it have?

 

[mykeal]

Yes, I am well acquainted with Ballistol's affection for water; perhaps I wasn't clear above. I meant to contrast it's ability to remove water with the inability of Bore Butter to do the same.

A couple of years ago I used Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System to tune up a GPR kit gun with great success (best $15 I've ever spent on black powder accessories). He advocates the use of a mixture of cutting oil and water soaked into patches and then dried as a patch lube. I have Ballistol/water solutions (technically emulsions) in various concentrations in old pill bottles that have sat around since then, and they're still viable.

Blue Wonder Gun Cleaner and Rust Remover is a gel. It's expensive but you need very little and it's very easy to work with. I don't know or claim it's the best thing ever made for removing rust but I've found it effective. I bought a Blue Wonder cold bluing 'kit' and it was included in that, so I got a full size tube and have used it on a couple of restoration projects with good success. I got it from Brownell's, but others carry it I'm sure.

 

[BCRider]

Is the Ballistol in water the same as the "Moose Milk" I've seen some folks refer to around here?

 

[Foto Joe]

Mykeal, Have you followed the instructions for mixing water with ballistol for the initial cleaning. Whatever surfactants it has in make one of the nicest, tightest,emulsions I've ever seen. I left the remainder in a container to see how long the emulsion would last.

I stopped at a China-Mart a few months ago and purchased a small 6oz spray bottle. I marked the bottle at both the 3 and 6 ounce levels and mixed up some Ballistol 1-1 with water in it. That spray bottle now resides in my shooting box and gets used for multiple purposes.

One of the wonders of Ballistol that I discovered is that my '51 brass gets caked pretty bad with residue and it's like getting JB Weld off your fingers cleaning it. Spray it with Ballistol 1-1 and let it sit while I'm doing the barrel and cylinder and the stuff melts off.

The only problem I have with Ballistol is, if I use it in the house my wife will beat me until my ears bleed. Apparently she doesn't find the aroma attractive, go figure.

 

[frontiergander]

I found this response on another forum and found is very interesting!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, here’s the deal. I get this question 50 times a year and they all originate from web sites. The problem with the internet is that there are so many “experts” who really have no knowledge but want to portray themselves as the keepers of all knowledge as long as they can hide in the anonymity of the internet.

Yes, Pyrodex contains pecrhlorates.

No, they do not etch the barrel at some minute level so small it can only be viewed under a full moon while wearing a wizard outfit.

NASA and the DOD both have tested and used Pyrodex over the past 35 years. Their testing contradicts the “experts” on the internet. They found Pyrodex to be no more corrosive than black powder.

Cleaning of Pyrodex residue is the same as black powder. No petro solvents, only water based or polar solvents. Soap is great. Windex with vinegar is great, Ballistol is the best thing for cleaning muzzleloaders I have ever seen, with all powders.

I don’t know how to make it any more plain, no special problems with Pyrodex. Shoot the gun, Clean the gun completely and you are just fine.

Those who want to continue to spew about their “expert” knowledge about the corrosiveness of Pyrodex and how it magically micro-pits barrels are going to continue to spew the same old tired stuff. How could the continue to be the anonymous “expert” hiding on the internet if they gave up. That is just the nature of the internet. I (we) are bound by truth, the “experts” are bound by their imaginations.

I hope this helps. I would say that it may be best to just give the best advice ever, “When you want to know about a product, call the maker. 800-622-4366”


Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager

The Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants

Hodgdon Smokeless Powders

Winchester Legendary Propellants

IMR Propellants

Pyrodex

Triple Seven

Goex Black Powd

 

[Texas Moon]

Guess I'm in the minority All I use is hot water with a little soap in it.

Ballistol is good stuff but the "aroma" is no bueno. Plus it costs dinero!

 

[BCRider]

Not at all TM. Hot water and a little dollop of dish soap for me as well. Rinse with more hot water, dry the outsides with a towel while warm, patch out the holes that I can and then blow dry the rest with a hair dryer on high.

Before getting some Ballistol I had such good luck with the Canola oil last summer and it passed the rust testing I did with flying colors. So now that we're back into the shooting season I'm lubing and storing the guns with a wipe down of canola oil. Yep, that's the veggie low poly fat cooking oil. The stuff really keeps the BP residue from gumming up the works. And if the cylinder gets sticky like my 1860 did after two cylinders worth last week a couple of drops of canola and a little bit of a spin and it's free to shoot on. And best of all it's CHEAP! An no "no bueno" smell to make the eyes water. But it WILL air dry to a varnish like coating after some number of months that I have not tried to test yet. I'll have to do that this week and see how it goes by next fall. I do know that in a cool'ish and dark place it stays just fine for at least two months. But until I know if it's good for at least 5 months with out promoting any rust and until I know it'll protect from air borne moisture causing rust then I'll stick to Ballistol for the "long dark times".

 

[Gatofeo]

Hot water and a bar of Ivory soap. It floats, so I can always find it when I want to lather a brush before scrubbing.
I won't let WD-40 near my guns. Over time it becomes a thick, gooey varnish that is a pain in the patoot to remove. It will also creep in around primers, sometimes deadening them. I've had it happen.
For rust protection, I don't need much because I live in the Utah desert where humidity is typically low. A coat of olive oil on my revolvers does it.
If I lived in more humid climes, I'd probably look at Break-Free CLP -- but remove it from the bore and chambers before loading. I don't like petroleum greases or oils in the bore or chambers; they tend to create a hard, tarry fouling when used with black powder.
And yes, I use FFFG black powder in my revolvers.
A soap and hot water cleaning do NOT promote rust if it's done correctly: rinse off the solution in hot, clean water, pop the parts into the oven at very low temp, and crack the oven door open a bit. Fifteen minutes or so of this will drive out all moisture.
I prefer to use hot water for cleaning because it cuts the greases and oils better, even when mixed with soap.
The old timers used to preach the wonders of cleaning with cold water, followed by a hot water rinse.
They also believed that putting a garlic bulb in your pillow would cure earaches, and that Yellow Fever was caused by swamp vapors.
Today, we know better.
Been shooting cap and ball sixguns since about 1970. Always cleaned them with hot, soapy water. Never had one rust, as long as I took the time to drive out any residual moisture with the oven treatment.