S&G keypad safe failure

[Remander]

I bought a Liberty safe with manual dial in 2005.

We are in and out of the safe a lot, so after a year or so we had the Liberty dealer install a Sargent and Greenleaf (S&G) electronic keypad lock for the convenience.

Now and then it would buzz (but not open) after we entered the code, but it would always work the second time. Until last Sunday. It would just make a rattle after the code was entered. 30 or so tries did no good.

I called Liberty, who handed me off to S&G, who contacted a local locksmith. He came Wednesday and, while talking with an S&G person, did all the troubleshooting. Had to drill.

He drilled one hole and worked more than 2 hours but could not open it. Came back today and worked from 8 a.m. until about 1:30 p.m., drilling two more holes. Finally opened it just after noon.

The S&G electronic lock was apparently a dud. (The exterior keypad part functions fine.) Replaced the lock. But now I have three holes in the door (the locksmith did fill them with some material; only one shows under the keypad). And I missed about 9 hours of work.

The locksmith said it was the hardest home safe project he had encountered in 30 years. Also said he had never seen a S&G fail like that. Just my luck.

I am (with some hesitation) sticking with the keypad for now because it is so convenient when it works and the S&G brand has a good reputation. I am hoping my failed piece was a rare event.

I post here for your information and to ask if any of you have ever had a similar failure.

Any similar experiences?

 

[Flame Red]

I had two S&G electronic locks. Both seemed totally reliable, except for replacing the batteries. I open it multiple times a day (a minimum of twice). I origianally had the electronic key pad for some years and about a year ago I upgrade to one of their biometric locks.

Only problems I ever had I assume were user error. Did not accept pin, probably because I did not hit the keypad right. Or the battery was weak. Same for the biometric. If my fingers are dirty or wet it may not take it or if I put the finger on it in an odd position is might not.

Don't underestimate the value of the electronic locks. I could never open the regular spin lock without glasses. That aside, it takes only a couple of seconds verses much much longer with the spinner.

Yes, anything electronic can go bad, and it won't work after an EMP. But when you want to get in a hurry, you can't beat it.

 

[xcop]

keypad

I had a LaGard keypad fail so on my new Graffunder I went to a manual S&G. One thing I have learned though is at the first sign of trouble with either an electronic or manual lock call a locksmith and if at all possible dont lock the safe. That way no drilling involved to repair or replace the lock.

 

[silverlance]

I have an S&G which sometimes doesn't register key punchs properly. Fortunately, this is not my SHTF safe. My SHTF safe is a Sentry mechanical that can be easily opened in the event of failure - I open it every day after I get home and close it in the morning as I leave. The door remains closed but unlocked while I am at home.

Further, I have a GunVault (the little handgun safes that have hand-shaped key pads). The lock drained batteries every 2 weeks. I now use it as a key-lock box only.

Electronic locks have their drawbacks. Like everything else, your defensive plan should not hinge on any one variable. Multiple guns, multiple locations, multiple plans upon plans.

 

[xsquidgator]

In the vein of "opening your safe fast when it's secured"...
does anyone here rely on a so-called "daylock" or "day lock"? This is where you "secure" the safe by closing it and rotating the dial something like 90 degrees perhaps from the last number of the combo. Many safes will allow you to later on rotate the dial back in the opposite direction to the last number in the combo, and it will once again open up with the handle.

This had never occurred to me until I read about so I tried it, and both of my safes allow me to do this. At least on my safe, this "feature" works no matter whether I rotate off of the last number either CW or CCW. So I rarely leave the safe with the dial on the last number anymore, but so long as I have light to see the dial, I can rotate just a portion of a turn and bing, it opens up.

That worth trying, or would you be worried about the safe being more vulnerable in this "day locked" condition?

 

[Vector]

I just bought a safe and had them upgrade the dial to the S&G electronic keypad because the sales people said it was reliable and well made. So I hope this was just an aberration.

Also reading what the poster said about them not working after an EMP got me thinking many people here on this board think of just about any scenario that could occur no matter how unlikely. I'm not saying it's bad, but if I were always to think like that, I'd be more stressed out than I already am.

 

[BobbyQuickdraw]

Do you own gun safes to keep your guns safe from being stolen or from being used/played with by children? Primarily.

Just curious.

 

[Vector]

Primarily the latter, though I want to make it difficult for a thief to access my weapons if he were to break in. Where I live it would be very hard for him to wheel out the safe without being noticed, though I imagine it could be done.

The said thief would also have to circumvent the giant dog, and the alarm system first.

 

[atomchaser]

My S&G electronic starting failing sporatically after about 1 year of service. The locksmith replaced it in about 15 mins since I was able to open it. If this one goes, I'm going to have a regular lock installed. If you own an electronic, best to get it replaced at the first sign of trouble.

 

[a1abdj]

What most consumers don't understand is that all electronic locks are disposable units that will fail. That is the price you pay for the other benefits offered by an electronic lock.

I see more S&G failures than I do Lagard, but both are fairly common. The fact that your locksmith says he's never seen one is a pretty good indication that your locksmith doesn't do a lot of safe work. The second indication is the amount of time he spent working on the lock. I've had a few gun safes cause me a lot of problems, but I can usually drill a lock and be into the safe in less than 10 minutes.

We try to drill as few holes as possible, but sometimes multiple holes are needed. They are very hard to repair on gun safes because the steel is so thin. A little sanding and some touch up paint may help.

 

[.45&TKD]

I went with the Traditional Dial S&G lock on mine.
Just couldn't trust electronic, in my mind.

 

[Im283]

What is the typical cost to replace an electronic keypad with a dial on an RSC?

 

[Remander]

Thanks for the info and experiences.

I still have my old manual dial parts, so if this second keypad goes out I guess we will go back to manual.

a1abdj: Thanks for the notes. I have read your posts in other threads on safe subjects and appreciate the sharing of knowledge. I wish you had been here to get into my safe in 10 minutes rather than more like the 10 hours it took.

 

[a1abdj]

What is the typical cost to replace an electronic keypad with a dial on an RSC?

Starting at around $100 for the lock, dial, and dial ring, and another $75 or so for installation.

I wish you had been here to get into my safe in 10 minutes rather than more like the 10 hours it took.

With my luck, it would have taken me 11. There's not a lot of us that specialize in safe work. General locksmiths tend to be more plentiful, and they charge less, so they see a lot of the warranty work from the gun safe manufacturers.

Look at the bright side. If he has to come out and drill your second lock, he'll know exactly what he's up against.

 

[Nickotym]

I bought a LaGard electronic dial from a1abdj this spring. It has been going great since then. My previous dial was a S & G that suffered from about 30 years of neglect. It would open some days, but not others.

 

[heypete]

I have an LaGard electronic lock on my Cannon RSC, and it works quite well. No problems with it at all in the year or so I've used it. The original 9V battery is still running strong (I check it monthly).

I've got a 2-pack of replacement batteries on the top of the RSC in case the battery unexpectedly fails, but I've been considering getting one of those lithium 9V batteries marketed for smoke detectors. Supposedly they'll last 10 years in a smoke detector. Anyone have any experience with using lithium batteries in keypads?

 

[Vector]

FYI - I just got my safe today and was surprised it did not have a S&G lock. When I called the company (Rhino Safes) they said that due to some problems they stopped using S&G and went with LG.
I have no way of knowing how good this lock is, but this company said they have not had any problems/complaints as of yet.

If it makes a difference to you, LG is made in America.

 

[a1abdj]

Most gun safes using the S&G electronic locks are using a 6120 (or similar) lock. This lock has a motor that extends and retracts the bolt.

Most gun safes using the LaGard electronic locks are using a LG Basic (or similar) lock. This lock has a small solenoid that blocks a swinging bolt.

Needless to say, the LaGard has a design less prone to problems. S&G is building some new locks that are more similar to the LaGard design, but I haven't seen many on gun safes.

 

[AVESguy]

Do the traditional spin dial S&G locks need servicing? I have one on my Liberty that gets opened several times a day and has been operating for about three years.

What needs to be done and how do you find a locksmith that knows what to do, if the answer is yes??

 

[vtoddball]

I'm a big fan of the KISS technique. Being an electrical engineer I know for certain that anything electronic WILL fail and when it does, it will be virtually impossible to fix without a full replacement. I'll take old fashioned dials any day.

 

[erict]

I have an LG on mine and open it 3-8 times a day on average. It's never had a problem in the 3 years I've had it.

 

[a1abdj]

Do the traditional spin dial S&G locks need servicing? I have one on my Liberty that gets opened several times a day and has been operating for about three years.

Yes they do, and with that heavy of use, you're due.

What needs to be done and how do you find a locksmith that knows what to do, if the answer is yes??

Look under "safes and vaults" in your yellow pages. If you have anybody listed under "opening & repairing", that's even better. You can also look in the following directory:

http://savta.org/members.php?id=6

I have an LG on mine and open it 3-8 times a day on average. It's never had a problem in the 3 years I've had it.

I just drilled open a drop safe using a LaGard electronic lock in the food court of a local mall. They told me it was opened at least 10 times a day, and was 10 years old. 3 to 5 years is the norm (in my experience) if you're opening it multiple times a day.

 

[OAKVILLE SHOOTER]

Do the traditional spin dial S&G locks need servicing? I have one on my Liberty that gets opened several times a day and has been operating for about three years.

Yes they do, and with that heavy of use, you're due.

Just curious, what type of maintenance. My Liberty with dial lock is about four years old, and I probably open it once a week on average. I don't plan on doing any "maintenance" on the lock personally, as I would prefer to leave it to the professionals. Just wondering what needs to be done.

 

[AVESguy]

Thanks for the info, I'll get on it.

 

[Trebor]

a1abdj, any chance you also post on Glocktalk with a different user name?

If not, there is a locksmith over there who gives almost identical advice that you do and seems to have a similar background.