Safe Action Triggers

[smovlov]

I had a question about the safety of the so called "Safe Action" trigger. I did some reading and it seems at though its a way to keep the gun from accidentally discharging if it is dropped or hit hard, not from operator error. Is this the general consensus?

I have experience with Glock, S&W M&P autos, and my brother has a Springfield xDs. It seems like the Springfield would be the safest in regards to operator error because of the grip safety. Farther behind would the Glock and S&W triggers.

I guess my line of thought is that the safety on Glock, S&W M&P auto, or a Springfield xD a is not a safety in the typical sense of the word (that it prevents the gun from firing when the trigger is depressed.) It is there to prevent the gun from firing if dropped.

 

[HexHead]

First of all, the "Safe Action" on a Glock refers to the gun not being fully cocked until the trigger is pulled. The "take up" when you pull the trigger is actually finishing cocking the gun so it can fire. An XD is fully cocked when the slide cycles, it needs an external safety, and is why it's classified as a single action pistol by the ATF.

 

[JTQ]

I guess my line of thought is that the safety on Glock, S&W M&P auto, or a Springfield xD a is not a safety in the typical sense of the word (that it prevents the gun from firing when the trigger is depressed.) It is there to prevent the gun from firing if dropped.

I agree, but don't tell the devotees.

An XD is fully cocked when the slide cycles, it needs an external safety, and is why it's classified as a single action pistol by the ATF.

I see this as largely "hair splitting" since for the user there is no difference between the Glock, M&P, and XD as far as the trigger manipulation goes.

 

[GJSchulze]

As stated, the Springfield xd line has a grip safety, which to me makes a big difference. The trigger safety only prevents it from firing if dropped. The grip safety means you have to intend to pull the trigger. No safety protects an idiot from an "accidental" discharge. If you have to rely on a safety to be safe, you aren't.

 

[Monac]

The Glock pistol is never fully cocked. That means that the trigger pull is long and springy, although not as long and springy as a full double-action trigger pull, like a DA revolver has. The long and springy trigger pull on the Glock is intended prevent unintentional discharge. It also has a firing-pin lock to prevent the pin from reaching the primer unless the trigger is pulled to the rear; this is a standard feature on DA revolvers. These two features put together constitute the "Safe Action", as I understand it.

The Glock also has the lever on the trigger, which is also meant to prevent accidental discharge somehow, although its practical value seems slight, at least to me.

The Glock is NOT a double action pistol. If you pull the trigger on an empty chamber, or on a dud cartridge, you will have to work the slide before you can pull the trigger again.

This semi-cocked single action has a distant ancestor in a pistol called the 8mm Roth Steyr Model 1907. This pistol was adopted by the Austro-Hungarian cavalry, who apparently considered that a fully cocked pistol was too likely to be fired unintentionally by a man on horseback, but liked the idea of a 10-shot pistol reloaded by stripper clips.

 

[jmr40]

Several partially correct answers here.

The bar inside the trigger is NOT a safety, Glocks have no safety. It's purpose is to prevent inertia from pulling the trigger if the gun is dropped. It works very well for its intended purpose

The Glock is NOT a double action pistol.

It is classified as a "Safe Action". Not true DA, nor true SA, but a combination of both. When a round is fired, or the slide pulled back the firing pin is partially cocked. Pulling the trigger fully cocks the gun, then releases the firing pin. As far as the ATF is concerned they classify it as DAO. While not technically correct, it is the closest description other than Safe Action which is just a name made up Glock.

The M&P uses an almost identical system. This is important since virtually all LE agencies ban SA pistols and strongly encourage DOA. This means Glocks and Smith M&P's are eligible to compete in LE trials for purchase. The SA XD is not.

The Glock pistol is never fully cocked. That means that the trigger pull is long and springy,

While the Glock does have to finish cocking the firing pin, it is already over 90% cocked. The pull is far from being "long". If it is you are using the wrong technique. There is a small amount of take up with no resistance while you get the lever inside the trigger out of the way. After that you get a crisp 5-6 lb trigger pull almost identical to a stock 1911. The mistake some people make with a Glock is to fully release the trigger and go through the whole process for each shot. Simply release enough for the trigger to reset and you get a consistent, crisp trigger pull for every shot.

 

[herrwalther]

The bar inside the trigger is NOT a safety, Glocks have no safety. It's purpose is to prevent inertia from pulling the trigger if the gun is dropped. It works very well for its intended purpose

It is classified as a "Safe Action". Not true DA, nor true SA, but a combination of both. When a round is fired, or the slide pulled back the firing pin is partially cocked. Pulling the trigger fully cocks the gun, then releases the firing pin. As far as the ATF is concerned they classify it as DAO. While not technically correct, it is the closest description other than Safe Action which is just a name made up Glock.

Not true, at least in part. Glock touts their system as having three passive safeties. Too many people hear safety and think active safeties such as manipulated with the thumb. In actuality many modern pistols have some sort of passive safety, Glock is not exclusive to them. A grip safety such as on the XD or 1911, is about the extent of what I consider a passive safety.

The tabbed trigger is part of Glocks safety system. Tabbed triggers have been incorporated in other models by Ruger and Springfield as well.

 

[Quentin]

...

While the Glock (trigger) does have to finish cocking the firing pin, it is already over 90% cocked. The pull is far from being "long". If it is you are using the wrong technique. There is a small amount of take up with no resistance while you get the lever inside the trigger out of the way. After that you get a crisp 5-6 lb trigger pull almost identical to a stock 1911. The mistake some people make with a Glock is to fully release the trigger and go through the whole process for each shot. Simply release enough for the trigger to reset and you get a consistent, crisp trigger pull for every shot.

Many who complain about the Glock trigger don't understand this. Take advantage of the Glock's short, crisp trigger reset for follow up shots and there's a lot to like about the Glock trigger.

Of course when you don't want to fire, get that finger off the trigger! Like any other handgun. Glocks are plenty safe if the operator is.

As far as a thumb safety that blocks the trigger from being depressed, Glock doesn't have that but is it wise to assume a thumb safety on a different gun will always prevent discharge? Again, to be safe keep your finger and anything else away from that trigger.

 

[Nom de Forum]

The Glock Armorer's Manual clearly states that there are two "Safeties" and one "Safety Function" the are listed as "Safety Devices". These are designated as the Trigger Safety, Firing Pin Safety, and Safety Function of the Trigger Mechanism Housing.

 

[Monac]

While the Glock does have to finish cocking the firing pin, it is already over 90% cocked. The pull is far from being "long". If it is you are using the wrong technique....Simply release enough for the trigger to reset and you get a consistent, crisp trigger pull for every shot.

If I ever had to use a Glock for self-defense, that is exactly the kind of thing I would NOT be doing, because I am not a trained professional. I would not even be trying to manipulate the trigger that precisely under stress, because I would be leery of letting off another shot accidentally. I realize that such precision could become second-nature to someone who practiced enough, but that is what I meant by not being a professional. I think very few policemen, for example, get that much practice.

I am not criticizing the Glock, but realistically, in action, the trigger pull is going to be longer and heavier than an SA pull. That is really the entire point of the "Safe Action", and is how it is meant to reduce the chance of unintentional discharge. ("It's not a bug, it's a feature!") It is meant to give better accuracy than a full DA pull, with less risk of accident than an SA pull.

At least, that is my understanding. It is perfectly possible I have misunderstood the concept, but if so, I would like to know what it actually is, since that is pretty much smovlov's (the OP) question.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

If I ever had to use a Glock for self-defense, that is exactly the kind of thing I would NOT be doing, because I am not a trained professional. I would not even be trying to manipulate the trigger that precisely under stress, because I would be leery of letting off another shot accidentally. I realize that such precision could become second-nature to someone who practiced enough, but that is what I meant by not being a professional. I think very few policemen, for example, get that much practice.

I am not criticizing the Glock, but realistically, in action, the trigger pull is going to be longer and heavier than an SA pull. That is really the entire point of the "Safe Action", and is how it is meant to reduce the chance of unintentional discharge. ("It's not a bug, it's a feature!") It is meant to give better accuracy than a full DA pull, with less risk of accident than an SA pull.

At least, that is my understanding. It is perfectly possible I have misunderstood the concept, but if so, I would like to know what it actually is, since that is pretty much smovlov's (the OP) question.

You do not need to be a "trained professional" to use the Glock trigger reset. Once you understand how it works, and try it a couple of times, you'll feel it "click." And I do literally mean that you will feel it. Here's how you do it:
1.) Fire the first shot normally.
2.) DO NOT RELEASE THE TRIGGER. Let the gun cycle.
3.) When you are ready to reset the trigger, let it out far enough to "click."
4.) The trigger is now on the short reset and you can pull it again.

Short reset triggers are safe because you CANNOT fire again, until you, on purpose, reset them. There is no precision involved in manipulating a Glock trigger; It is about as gross-motor as you can get.

 

[Monac]

OK. Do Glock shooters find that comes naturally with a little practice? And does it defeat the purpose of the "Safe Action"?

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

After that you get a crisp 5-6 lb trigger pull almost identical to a stock 1911.

Hope you ducked on that one! lol

You do not need to be a "trained professional" to use the Glock trigger reset.

just to add: or most any SA or Stiker fired semi auto pistol you can feel the reset.

 

[amd6547]

The short, tactile reset trigger quickly becomes second nature, as does taking ones finger off the trigger unless ready to shoot.
I can say that when I was young, and just starting owning my own pistol unsupervised, I had a negligent discharge...with a DA/SA pistol, entirely due to my own stupid actions on that day. Thankfully, no one was harmed.
But, after that "loudest shot ever heard", I became dedicated to safe gun handling.
After years of shooting many different handguns of every discription, I prefer the Glock, and find handling it safely is no more of a problem than any other type of pistol.
All handguns are loaded unless proven otherwise. Even then, they are never pointed at anything I'm not willing to shoot, and the finger is off the trigger.
Doesn't matter if it's a DA revolver, a Browning HiPower, a Beretta 92, or...a Glock.

 

[TestPilot]

Post by smovlov:
I have experience with Glock, S&W M&P autos, and my brother has a Springfield xDs. It seems like the Springfield would be the safest in regards to operator error because of the grip safety. Farther behind would the Glock and S&W triggers.

No.

"Grip safety" decreases certain risk of accidental discharge, but increases risk of user being unable to fire in certain circumstances. "Grip safety" hindering intended firing are instances well known trainers have actually witnessed.

So, it is just exchange of one risk for another.

I'd add that personally, "grip safety" does not make any sense.

I guess my line of thought is that the safety on Glock, S&W M&P auto, or a Springfield xD a is not a safety in the typical sense of the word (that it prevents the gun from firing when the trigger is depressed.) It is there to prevent the gun from firing if dropped.

They are not a manual firing inhibitor thumb switch, if that's what you're asking.

That's the way I love it.

 

[TestPilot]

Post by Monac:
If I ever had to use a Glock for self-defense, that is exactly the kind of thing I would NOT be doing, because I am not a trained professional.

There are vaild reasons not to use that technique.

"I am not a trained professional" is not one of them.

If you are saying that because you are currently using an amature technique, more than likely it is just inefficient technique.

That inefficient technique does not mean it is safer.

Also, there is real danger and perceived danger due to ignorance.

 

[HexHead]

OK. Do Glock shooters find that comes naturally with a little practice? And does it defeat the purpose of the "Safe Action"?

I didn't feel it as easily on my Glocks as I do now on my HKs.

 

[TestPilot]

Post by GJSchulze:
The grip safety means you have to intend to pull the trigger.

Wrong.

If you have a full grip on the gun, then unintentional pull will fire the gun.

 

[guyfromohio]

All my guns have a safe action trigger that works just like my Glocks'. They don't Fire unless you press them. Why Glock continues to tout this as a "safety" is beyond me. It's not. It's fine without a safety. Get over it.

 

[GLOOB]

OP:You have a Glock, right?

Field strip your Glock. Pick up the frame. Push the trigger safety in. You'll notice:

1. The trigger spring pulls back on a Glock. Without the striker pushing against the sear, as soon as you push the trigger safety in, the trigger flies back.
2. In the rear position, the sear hits the disconnector, deflecting down, which moves it out of the path of the striker.

Now hold the trigger bar forward while pushing the trigger safety in. And let the trigger bar back, gently.

In some Glocks, the sear will stick against the disconnector without going all the way down. Depends on how smooth things are. If yours sticks in this position, tap the frame against a table and watch what happens. The trigger goes back a little further and the sear is deflected down. Notice that if the gun was assembled and the slide was actually cycled, the disconnector would be pressed in by the slide, and it would not deflect the sear down; the sear would stay up, engaging the striker as the slide returned to battery.

If you were to drop a Glock onto concrete, and it landed on the back of the slide, muzzle pointed straight up, the striker would cock itself through inertia. If the trigger safety weren't there, the trigger bar/sear would follow the striker and most likely lock in the fully rearward and downward position, completely unblocking the striker safety and clearing the sear from intercepting the striker. The disconnector is not tripped, because the slide is not back. When inertia was done the striker spring would take over, and the striker would have a clear path to the primer. The gun would fire just as surely as if you had pulled the trigger, intentionally.

If you think the 1911 grip safety is there only to prevent you from firing the gun without a proper grip, then you are wrong. It is primarily a drop safety. The Glock trigger safety might not stop certain AD's that could be prevented by a grip safety. But the trigger safety costs only a few cents to incorporate into a Glock, and it's super simple, unobstrusive, and utterly reliable.

Regarding the short Glock reset:

OK. Do Glock shooters find that comes naturally with a little practice?

I find it comes naturally, period. It does not require practice. It's not a secret. It's just how the gun shoots.

And does it defeat the purpose of the "Safe Action"?

No. The purpose of safe action is that when you take your finger off the trigger, the gun is holster/drop-safe. Take the concept of the HK P7 squeeze cocker. But you don't even have to let go of your grip. Or take a DA/SA pistol concept, but in this case the gun automatically decocks itself when you release the trigger. No manual decocker is needed. As soon as you take your finger off the trigger, the gun is inert, in a holster/drop-safe condition. Now, if you were to get in the habit of STAGING the trigger before getting the gun on target, then that would not be a safe practice, at all. And not necessary. The takeup on the Glock trigger is not very far and not very heavy. It's just there to move the firing pin safety out of the way, IMO. Not really to "cock" the gun. The striker spring just happens to be doing double duty in this regard. Why add more parts, when you can just incorporate it with what's already there? It's just a coincidental bonus that Glock can say that the striker is partially decocked.

It does potentially make you UNSAFE on other pistols, though. When you get used to the Glock trigger, and you shoot a gun with a noticeable reset but a much lighter break, you can get an unintentional double. But if you have just intentionally fired a shot, let's hope your gun is in a safe direction.

 

[Schwing]

Going back to the O.P's original question... No, the Glock "Safe action trigger" does absolutely nothing to prevent operator error when pulling the trigger. The grip safety on the Springfields are slightly more likely to prevent an accidental discharge but, the next time you holster your weapon, pay attention to where your hands are positioned.... I know I almost always push down on the grip when holstering myself, rendering the grip safety on my Springfield every bit as useless as a trigger safety alone if I have my hand on the trigger. Since a huge percentage of accidental discharges occur when holstering a weapon, both Glocks and Springfields are prone to this.

The bottom line is that gun owners who exercise sloppy trigger discipline are far more likely to have an accidental discharge with a gun equipped with a trigger safety vs an active safety. I don't say this to slam Glocks or Springfields. Go and do a google search for "Glock Leg" and you will see that leg injuries occur all of the time with Glocks. You won't find another gun out there with more accidental discharges.

Now, do you blame the gun or the owner? That is the real question.

 

[TestPilot]

By Monac:
OK. Do Glock shooters find that comes naturally with a little practice? And does it defeat the purpose of the "Safe Action"?

It does not even have to be natural.

Even if you don't feel it, if you release the pressure on the Glock trigger, it will practically kick your finger to where the trigger slack is pulled out. So, even without a huge amount of training, it just gets there for many as long as they are conscious of the concept.

This is not some sort of super fine dexterity contest where the shooter is trying to fine tune the finger pressure within a matter of 1 pound or less.

Even at reset, the trigger is pretty stiff. It is still that 5~8 lb Glock trigger (Glock advsertise it at 5.5 lb, but it is actually anywhere within 5~8 or even 9 lb, and no I am not taking about NY triggers).

People describing it as careful fine tuned release to reset with a fine 1911 like pull is grossly exaggerating it.

If you're worried about holding a gun with finger exerting pressure on a trigger like that on a custum 1911 match trigger, that is not the case at all. Basically, you're just holding the trigger with the slack pulled out on a 5~8 lb trigger which I do not understand how people can describe as "crisp" while maintaining a straight face, and which still has a longer pull than any 1911, even with the slack pulled out.

It is not something finess at all. Although finess would greatly enhace the efficiency of it, it is not required.

 

[CommanderCrusty]

I treat all the striker-fired pistols like cocked-and-unlocked
single actions: That's basically what they are.

 

[Monac]

Thanks, all! I guess I learned that I don't know anything about Glocks and should stop talking about them. I hope all this helps the OP too, because that was my original intent.

Oh, and Test Pilot, all I meant about trigger technique was that I am not used to letting out a DA trigger out just to the reset point and no further after firing a shot. It sounded like a difficult thing to do under stress, but once again, that's probably because I am not familiar enough with Glocks. Thanks.

 

[george burns]

Monac, it's one of those subjects that can go on for 4 pages and end up where it started.
It's in my opinion, to prevent an accidental discharge from anything other than direct pulling of the trigger, such as catching on the edge of your holster or falling and hitting the edge of something that didn't fully engage the system. That's as best as I have understood it for the 25 or so years I have been handling one daily.