Safe Action Triggers
- Thread starter smovlov
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The number of Glock legs is simple. There are tens of thousands of police officers who transitioned from DA revolvers to (basically SA) Glocks. And of those tens of thousands of police officers, say 5% of them are not only "gun owners who exercise sloppy trigger discipline," but they also handle firearms, daily. Of those 5%, 1% of them eventually become gun owners who will never exercise sloppy trigger discipline, again, because they finally learned the hard way.
The Glock trigger safety is superior to decockers and active safeties in one important way. You CANNOT forget to engage it. The gun is ALWAYS drop safe. It's not the only gun that has passive drop safety. It's just one of the first to be be completely 100% drop safe 100% of the time, passively. Drop safety is just ONE of the potential reasons for a manual safety. And there are some guns with a manual safety that are also passively drop safe. So the Glock trigger safety is not a replacement for a manual safety, nor is it designed to be. It is just one part of the system that makes a Glock drop safe.
The Glock trigger safety is superior to decockers and active safeties in one important way. You CANNOT forget to engage it. The gun is ALWAYS drop safe. It's not the only gun that has passive drop safety. It's just one of the first to be be completely 100% drop safe 100% of the time, passively. Drop safety is just ONE of the potential reasons for a manual safety. And there are some guns with a manual safety that are also passively drop safe. So the Glock trigger safety is not a replacement for a manual safety, nor is it designed to be. It is just one part of the system that makes a Glock drop safe.
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Wreck-n-Crew
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In all fairness it's not sloppy trigger discipline, rather a different platform and a new learning curve. Not being used to a lighter weapon that is harder to steady for one. Big difference. It's like telling the guys who had M14's that they were undisciplined when they had to switch to the m16. Totally different weight and recoil.
Is this the modern era speech again is it? If it is the sales pitches are getting to the point that Gieco commercials are more rare. :banghead:
Don't get me wrong I don't mind the support of a design or platform but give me a break with the 80's reruns! Old already.
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Wreck-n-Crew
Member
I remember asking you if you ducked when you wrote this!
Hope you ducked!
gc70
Member
There appear to be different opinions about Glock's Safe-Action. The Glock website provides this description:
The three safeties are listed as a trigger safety, firing pin safety, and drop safety (the interaction of the trigger bar and frame).
Wreck-n-Crew
Member
in layman's terms the trigger should not fire unless you pull the trigger.
When u put your finger in the trigger guard, let alone on the trigger, when u are not on target and ready to fire, that IS sloppy trigger discipline. It doesn't matter if it is a Glock or a 1911 or a DAO revolver with a 35lb trigger. The difference is that you might get away with it with the revolver. And you might even encourage a culture of irresponsible gun handling by making excuses and blaming the gun.
"Interaction between the trigger bar and frame" is surely referring to the trigger safety that must be depressed for trigger safety to slip through the slot in the FRAME so that the TRIGGERBAR can advance. But what do I know. I understand how the gun works. You read ad copy meant for the common denominator, written by an english major turned marketing editor. Excuse me while I go and load my HK with the bullets facing backwards.
"Interaction between the trigger bar and frame" is surely referring to the trigger safety that must be depressed for trigger safety to slip through the slot in the FRAME so that the TRIGGERBAR can advance. But what do I know. I understand how the gun works. You read ad copy meant for the common denominator, written by an english major turned marketing editor. Excuse me while I go and load my HK with the bullets facing backwards.
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george burns
Member
If you pull the trigger it goes off.
gc70
Member
I apologize for using an abbreviated description when I should have more precisely said "the interaction of the trigger bar and frame of the firing mechanism."
For those less familiar with Glocks, the arms extending on either side of the rear of the trigger bar rest on top of rails in the firing mechanism's frame. Only when the trigger is pulled far enough to the rear (after the trigger and firing pin safeties have been released) does the trigger bar reach a point where the rails angle downward, allowing the trigger bar to drop and release the striker. If a Glock is dropped, the firing mechanism cannot be jarred out of engagement, as is the case in some designs, because the trigger bar positively blocks the striker's forward movement.
gc70
Member
No problem. If I proofread my posts more diligently, I would notice when my typing omits words or phrases I am thinking.
Nom de Forum
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My experience as a National Match Armor, IPSC competitor, and avid reader of firearms history makes it really easy to say; the fans of other pistols, especially fans of the 1911, really don't know much about their favorite pistol.
guyfromohio
Member
I'm a big motorcycle fan. I love riding my Victory, but I'm not a mechanic nor do I care to be one. So what if the guy hasn't researched every nuance of his firearm. Does the normal person do this or just those of us who are die- hard enthusiasts?
george burns
Member
Good analogy Guy, I am sure that until last month, Tom Brady had no idea how to manufacture a football, and he has done pretty well throwing one.
I forgot about that part. Does the M&P work the same way?
Correct. That's what I was thinking.
Agreed. I think that's what I was getting at. It makes the gun safe in the event of a drop but it is not a "manual firing inhibitor thingamabob".
Thanks GLOOB for the big write up. Clarified a lot of my thoughts.
I kinda hit and run this post because I haven't had time to get on and respond to everyone's comments. Thanks everyone for the good discussion on this topic!
gc70
Member
smovlov said:
S&W describes the M&P as a DAO pistol. I have seen discussion on S&W/M&P forums that the M&P striker is 97-98% pre-tensioned.
Exactly!!
This is also the reason why a grip safety doesn't really add any advantage when it comes to preventing "Glock leg". The reality is when holstering or unholstering a firearm the grip safety is disengaged by most people anyway. When you are holstering a Springfield XD if you have your finger on the trigger, the chances are you will get Springfield leg.
The only thing a grip safety prevents is a gun going off in a struggle when it isn't gripped properly.
And to me the trade offs in reliability make it a questionable addition. There are several reasons most Police Departments didn't switch to XD's, and that we don't see our Armed Forces considering them, one big one is that for the most part Grip Safeties introduce almost as many problems as they solve.
There is nothing wrong with wanting a safety for civilian carry, I get it. I can understand why some (especially those without a lot of firearms experience) are uncomfortable with a firearm without a manually disengage-able safety. But a grip safety doesn't really solve most of those issues.
It doesn't mean the Springfield is a bad choice, if you like the ergonamics and you shoot it well, cool, go for it. But don't think you're any "safer" and can handle the firearm any more casually because you have a grip safety. If you follow the rules of firearm carry, it will work just fine for you, but so will a Glock or M & P.
"I am not a trained professional..." sounds like you watch too many cop shows or buy into the liberal media hype that only professional law enforcement or military are trained to use firearms. Go to the range, practice, take classes, and ask questions.
Trigger reset is even something you can practice at home with a CO2 airsoft pistol for a lot safer and cheaper than a range trip.
Trigger reset is even something you can practice at home with a CO2 airsoft pistol for a lot safer and cheaper than a range trip.
Schwing
Member
I don't disagree with this exactly but there were tens of thousands of U.S. troops who also transitioned from 1911s and DA revolvers to 92s and the term "Beretta leg" never came to be.
The guy behind the trigger, IMHO, is to blame for the negligent discharge but it is hard to argue against the fact that people carrying Glocks in basically what amounts to condition 0 are far more likely to have an ND than say someone carrying a 92 or something similar in condition 2. I don't blame the gun but it sure is hard for me to recommend them to new shooters (and unfortunately some experienced ones) who don't have any training or who exercise sloppy trigger discipline. It still astounds me any time I enter almost any gun store and see the sales person pushing Glocks on new shooters who have never handled a firearm.
We have had several very high profile NDs here in Utah over the last couple of years including an LEO who shot a toilet in a restaurant and a teacher who did a similar thing at a school. Both were Glocks. Both claimed to have "dropped the gun"... It isn't hard to see that isn't the case.
herrwalther
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Schwing said:
Can be plenty of reasons for accidental/negligent discharges with Glocks or similar style firearms. Glocks are touted as being ultra safe by gun stores and marketing. They contain the same internal safeties as most modern pistols. There is nothing revolutionary safe about Glock internals.
Another reason NDs rarely happen in the military can be either institutional or mechanical. Ammo is rarely issues to soldiers outside regular range qualifications. Even most guards at CONUS postings carry empty firearms. Mechanically the trigger pull on a M9 is longer and heavier to where a Glock feels more like a single action by comparison. I was issued a beat up M9 that had a 12lb DA trigger pull.
M&P is different.
The striker is nearly 90% cocked all the time. The trigger pulls the sear down, and that downward motion of the sear cocks it all the way, which is not a huge movement, then releases the striker.
Glock is about 50% cocked when trigger isn't pulled.
M&P sear only moves down when trigger is pulled, but there is a little cam action that pushes the striker a bit rearward before release.
Glock sear(integral to the trigger bar) travels rearward, pushing the sear rearward, then moves down, releasing the striker.
herrwalther
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burk said:
Nope and nope. A grip safety is far more likely to save you from "X brand leg" than accidental discharge in a struggle. It is easy enough to take your hand off the grip safety of an XD for reholstering. A bit more difficult to do on 1911s or pocket AMTs, but still doable.
Lots of things are doable. But the reality is a vast majority of people disengage the grip safety on a pistol merely as normal practice in holstering and un-holstering a firearm. In fact the natural motion for presentation of a pistol is to form your grip first as your unholstering a gun. I've handled plenty of Springfield XD's they are fine guns but I'm not convinced in any way that their grip safety would prevent "Springfield leg" if you were to depress the trigger during presentation or when placing your pistol back in the holster. It's not a natural motion to unholster and holster a pistol without your normal grip on the firearm.
Again the XD's is a fine gun, and some prefer it's ergonomics over the Glock. Cool, go for it, but if you don't exercise good trigger discipline (the same trigger discipline that keeps ten's of thousands of LE safe with Glocks every day) you will not be any safer than that officer.
One other note: From what I've seen (and I was in LE supply for years), Police officers are not necessarily any more adept at firearms handling than the general public. Some are VERY GOOD, they practice a lot, they train, and they are very conscious of good firearms handling and safety. Others are casual, train minimally (I know a few who only practiced a couple of weeks before re-qualification), and don't maintain their weapons. So many of the issues of LE handling are not representative of a firearms usefulness for civilian use.
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