Safe Frequency For Shooting Indoors?

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Gentlemen,

Due to an incident I was wondering what would you all consider a safe amount of time to spend shooting at a indoor range?

So a friend of mine that I shoot with often at the same indoor range called me today with a range of emotions (depressed, mad, skeptical) etc etc due to the fact he got his blood results back and he had high lead levels. The Doctor said 1-19 were the acceptable levels and he is like at 22. He called to alert me to get tested because we usually shoot at the same indoor range. I am a little worried but I will wait to see what the blood results come back with. Neither of us smoke and he even takes more of a precaution than I do, in the fact that he usually brings along what he calls his shooting overalls and changes into them before shooting then takes them off and puts them in a garbage bag when leaving. I never change my clothing until I get home then I will shower after cleaning my guns and wash my clothing separate from anything else. We both never leave the range without washing our hands and face, we both even carry soap in our range bags just in case the range doesn't have any. We both where nitryle gloves when cleaning our weapons as well.

Neither of us do any casting of our own bullets, but we both reload and for the past 2 years we have only shot berry's or Rainier plated bullets. My reloading is done in an open garage during the summer and a heated garage during the winter, my buddy has his setup is in his basement.

The range we visit had NRA help in constructing it and supposedly has adequate ventilation. I can tell you they have a vent behind each shooting station that sucks in air from the outside and blows your smoke down range away from you. Then the air gets sucked out at the end of the range and filtered before going back to the open air outside. We have actually showed up at the range a couple of times and it was shutdown for routine maintenance where they had some ventilation folks changing the filters. Now I do not know if they were just blowing smoke (mo pun intended) but they say it is done every 6 months and it is painful because it cost about $4500.00 to change the filters out and have the system cleaned. I just figured well at least we know it is being done which gave me some piece of mind.

As I stated previously before I worry to much I will let my blood test results come back.

The reason I ask this question is because the Doctor told him no matter what sort of ventilation is being used, spending that much time on an indoor range was not good. He told the doctor depending on the month we could spend from 1 to 4 hours a month at the range. He said the doctor got very excited and said that was way to much. The doctor said look if you have to shoot do it at an outdoor range stay away from the indoor. This sucks because it is like 14 degree's here today. Basically we spend about an hour on the weekends at the range, I would say an average per year we visit the range about twice a month.

 

[NetJunkie]

I'd look for other factors. He may be getting lead from his drinking water or something else. If your range vents like that..as mine does...I don't see how you're getting much.

 

[danez71]

I'm NOT a DR.

IMHO, 1-4 hr per month doesnt seem like it would be enough to cause harm other wise CA would have banned indoor ranges (you get my point I hope)

Lead could be coming from his drinking water... food sources etc. Practically everything painted from china contains lead. If he chews on pencils painted with lead paint.... bingo. Just an example.

Get a 2nd opinion... or more. Keep an open mind that the indoor range MAY or MAY NOT be the culprit.

It would be a real pisser if you stopped going to the range only to find out, hopefully not too late, it was something else.


Good luck.

 

[Oro]

I, too, would suggest looking for him to look for other sources. The only indoor-range associated cases I've seen were from full-time range employees in places with sub-par ventilation; certainly not someone spending less than five hours/month at a well-ventilated facility. Especially if your own rounds are plated.

Sure, have yourself tested and see what your results are. But it's unlikely you will also see elevated levels.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Well I went and had my test done today.

 

[rmfnla]

I'm NOT a DR.

IMHO, 1-4 hr per month doesnt seem like it would be enough to cause harm other wise CA would have banned indoor ranges (you get my point I hope)

Jeez, don't give CA any ideas!

 

[KBintheSLC]

One of the indoor ranges I frequent recently rebuilt their vent system... now it works very well. Before the rebuild though, I could literally feel the difference after shooting there for an hour. My muscles would cramp up, I would get headaches, and my stomach would be upset for the rest of the day. After a while, I started bringing my 3M ventilator mask to shoot with.

After they installed the new system, the problems went away. I think if you are getting excessive exposure to lead vapor at the range, you would likely notice it as I did. I didn't need a test to tell me I was getting poisoned. I'd recommend you take a good look at your other environmental factors before you come to any conclusions.

 

[DaveBeal]

When I told my doc that I'd started shooting indoors, he did a web search and said that there were no standard guidelines saying that blood tests were recommended for shooters. He did one anyway, to get a baseline for later use. I agree that you friend should consider whether the lead is coming from other sources.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If you are getting lead from the range and are already over the limit, the any frequency is going to be too much. As I recall, lead's half life in the body is 15-25 years. That means it will take 15-25 years for about half the lead in your body currently to be removed naturally. Given that time frame, lead is very cumulative. It can be removed via chelation therapy which is not a pleasant process according to the one guy I know that went through it.

 

[hotshotshoting]

typically the average shooters exposure to lead at an indoor shooting range is minimal at best....

i am exposed to copious amounts of lead due to practically swimming in lead every time i change filters, do a full sweep, clean the decelerators, weld on the decelerators, clean the straps, and do all the other range maintenance and my lead level is not much higher than average.....

the gentleman with the issues breathing and muscle cramping, head aches etc... was probably due to the powders vs lead... without proper ventilation its definitely possible for those side effects...

 

[Sam1911]

Your friend needs to evaluate other sources of lead in his life. There's no way 1-4 hours of exposure a MONTH would cause elevated lead levels.

By the way, while there is no "safe" level for lead, 22 isn't really anything to worry about in an adult.

The best way to avoid lead contamination on the range is to watch your hygiene. Don't eat, drink, or smoke while shooting. Don't wipe your face, pick you nose, rub your eyes, etc. before you go wash your hands. Wash your hands well with cold water immediately after shooting. Be careful of bringing the shoes you wore to the range inside the house. Probably should wash the clothes you wore separately from the family's laundry (if you have young kids).

If you guys are following those precautions -- and you're only on the range 1-4 hours PER MONTH(???) -- and he's got elevated lead levels, there is another significant source of lead in his life.

(I spend more than that on the range per WEEK, on a range with horrible ventilation, and control exposure levels with the above techniques.)

-Sam

 

[DickM]

This subject has come up before, so you may want to do a search to pull up some old threads.

I spend several hours per week shooting in poorly ventilated indoor ranges. I'm also an environmental toxicologist and I've looked into some of the technical literature and current government (e.g., NIOSH, ATSDR) guidelines regarding lead exposure and toxicity. I had my lead tested a bit over a year ago and it came back at about 31 mcg/dl (micrograms per deciliter), triple the upper-end of the generally considered "normal" range (i.e., up to 10 mcg/dl). I was able to bring it back down to 11 mcg/dl in a year by making no change to my shooting habits other than to start wearing a respirator with P100 filters and observing some common-sense cleanliness precautions as discussed in the next paragraph. A shooting buddy of mine was up to 62 and got back into the low 20s in a year by doing the same. I am now so used to the respirator that I'd no more consider not wearing it than I would not wearing my ear or eye protection.

While the most common source of lead contamination from indoor ranges is inhalation (and the origin appears to be more the lead styphnate priming compound than atomization and spatter from lead bullets), another thing to watch for is lead deposits on your hands entering the body when you eat or smoke after shooting. I'm usually careful to wash my hands at the end of a range session. I don't buy into the "cold water to close the pores" theory, but I don't have any data to back that up. Actual absorption of elemental lead through the skin appears to be minimal, but apparently can be accelerated by solvents such as those used to clean guns. So, I also wear thin and cheap disposable Nitrile gloves when I clean guns. I know some guys who will also do so when they reload, but I don't bother with that, only with a good hand-washing at the end of a reloading session.

Based on the information you've provided, I agree that it seems unlikely that your friend's elevated serum lead concentration would have come primarily from his range time. That's assuming that the ventilation really is as good as you say, and also that your friend doesn't also do (for example) some other high-exposure tasks such as sweeping the range floor, etc., and doesn't do risky things like eating a sandwich with lead residue on his hands. It would be a good idea for him to look at other potential sources of exposure, as others have suggested.

Based on everything I've read, I disagree that a serum lead concentration in the low 20s (again, mcg/dl) is nothing to worry about. I would worry plenty and figure out how to bring it down, which I know from personal experience can be done quite effectively without compromising your shooting hobby.

 

[Skid_McCoy]

Make sure you wash you hands after handling lead bullets.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Well guys bad news. My test results came back and because of it we had 3 other guys that shoot with us tested and their results came back also. Now these 3 other gentlemen they do not reload. Unfortunately all of us are over 20. We range from 22 to 45 between the 5 of us.

Obviously the ventilation is not as good as we thought it was. We went to another indoor range not to far from us and noticed their range seemed a lot less smokey and cloudy. We have always shot at the other indoor range for years and never really did any comparison. We just felt at home and the people are great friendly people. I must say now that I have seen MAYBE a clean indoor range I am appalled by how unclean the air really was in the one we frequent. The only bad thing about this new indoor range is that you must shoot factory ammo (doesn't have to be green ammo just factory) as all reloads are not allowed. Also with the new range they have a big sign on the door that you can't collect your brass, even if you came in with factory ammo from some place else. So we spoke with them and they said even if you shoot revolver the brass must be taken out and thrown on the floor for them to collect. I know they are very serious about this because as we stood watching and evaluating they had range masters walking up and down the lanes pushing brass that fell on your table to the ground. Now this range though it seemed clean did not seem fair as they sell plain white box reloaded ammo for less price than new. They say that is where their brass goes it helps offset the cost of the range. But even with this they make you sign a 3 page waiver which states even if you get hurt shooting their reloads you accept accountability and can't sue them. When I explained I do not shoot someone else's reloads and asked who does their reloads the lady just said well you will need to buy factory then or not use our range. She was very unpolite and here are 5 guys trying to be safer now and ask the questions and possibly join this range and she acts this way.

I said well I am confused if my safety is not guaranteed with your reloads why can't I bring my own reloads, and of course I got the old well our insurance won't allow it.

At our current range where we have been for years, I mean i have seen these guys going into the range with sterile wipes, they go in with their ventilators on wiping all the stations and tables down etc. SO it appears clean but we all noticed our range is smokey compared to this new range we visited.

My question to you guys is this. Should we go tell our current range owners about this? I ask because one of our other good friends, the doctor called him last night at 8:30pm on her way home after her practice was closed because his was so high (45). They had tried to contact him at home couldn't and called his cell phone. I told the guys last night we all should go in and let them know none of us are angry and it was more informative for them more than anything and show them our blood results, and we should do it when no patrons are around.

What are your thoughts?

 

[DickM]

Sounds like you've zeroed in on the source of the problem. My very rough rule of thumb for good vs. poor range ventilation is whether I can smell the results of my shooting. If you can smell the burnt powder then you're being exposed to lead via inhalation. Looking at the smoke is also useful - it shouldn't linger but should move quickly (about 1 ft per second) and clearly downrange away from the line. The only range I've ever shot at that has obviously good ventilation is the Smith and Wesson range in Springfield, MA, and I wear my respirator there anyway.

With regard to your question, I would definitely pass your findings along to the owners of your current range. Perhaps they'll make a good faith effort to improve the ventilation, which will be a win for everyone involved. It sounds like they're trying to do the right thing with their cleaning efforts, but that's not going to help much if the ventilation is poor. As I said in my earlier post, however, there's no reason for you to stop shooting there if you like the place - just pick up a half face respirator with P100 filters for $20 or so and wear it when you shoot. Most of the shooters on my pistol teams wear them now and everyone who's been tested has seen their lead come down significantly. You and everyone else will think it looks pretty funny at first, but I have no doubt that was also the case with ear protection some decades ago and now anyone not wearing it is conspicuous (and foolish, of course).

Here's a link to the respirator and filters I use:
http://www.northernsafety.com/Produ...-Maintenance-Half-Mask-Respirators.html?PFM=S

 

[PT1911]

does he reload or otherwise expose himself to lead in other ways?

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

maybe I was not clear in my previous post, 2 of us reload 3 of us don't.

The guy with the highest score does not reload and has a desk job in an office.

 

[franconialocal]

At the NH Police Academy we are REQUIRED to use frangible non-lead ammo for this same reason. Not so much for the cadets (short times in the range) but for the range officers and staff.

Also....it's important to wash your hands/face at the end of your session.

 

[Quoheleth]

If it were me...

The five of you schedule a meeting with the range owner. Take along your blood tests. If you've been shooting there this long, he (or his staff) will recognize you as faithful customers and should be willing to listen. Sit down and politely explain your concerns for yourselves and other customers. Show him your blood tests. Express your ernest desire that he consider conducting some in-house lead-level tests of his staff and his range. Obviously what he is considering to be due diligence isn't getting the job done.

Alert him to the fact that out of your concern for your personal health, but out of the desire to remain shooting at his range which you like (and give the reasons why), you will return but will do so with proper safety gear for eyes, ears AND LUNGS and if people ask why you are wearing the gear, you will tell them.

Again, do so in non-threatening terms but in clear and precise language. If he agrees with your requests and shares your concerns, you've won him over. If he balks or if he becomes agitated at your future use of breathing equipment, you have a choice to make. Do you contact the county health department? Do you go to a different range? It could be uncomfortable and may cost you some extra money (as you describe with the ammo situation) but what price do you place on your health?

Q

 

[481]

The five of you schedule a meeting with the range owner. Take along your blood tests. If you've been shooting there this long, he (or his staff) will recognize you as faithful customers and should be willing to listen. Sit down and politely explain your concerns for yourselves and other customers. Show him your blood tests. Express your ernest desire that he consider conducting some in-house lead-level tests of his staff and his range. Obviously what he is considering to be due diligence isn't getting the job done.

Alert him to the fact that out of your concern for your personal health, but out of the desire to remain shooting at his range which you like (and give the reasons why), you will return but will do so with proper safety gear for eyes, ears AND LUNGS and if people ask why you are wearing the gear, you will tell them.

Again, do so in non-threatening terms but in clear and precise language. If he agrees with your requests and shares your concerns, you've won him over. If he balks or if he becomes agitated at your future use of breathing equipment, you have a choice to make. Do you contact the county health department? Do you go to a different range? It could be uncomfortable and may cost you some extra money (as you describe with the ammo situation) but what price do you place on your health?

Q

This.


If the range owner/operator is unwilling to listen and investigate this issue, resolving any problems that are detected, it is time to find another place to shoot.

Your health is a precious "singular" possession.

Ranges; indoor and otherwise; not so much.

 

[rhartwell]

lead?

I shoot at an indoor range. I also am a electronics technician. I would on the bench and do a lot of soldering with lead based solder. I have checked my blood levels and they are very low. I reload with lead cast bullets. I think that there must be something else going on here.

 

[Quoheleth]

I shoot at an indoor range. I also am a electronics technician. I would on the bench and do a lot of soldering with lead based solder. I have checked my blood levels and they are very low. I reload with lead cast bullets. I think that there must be something else going on here.

But if HIS range isn't taking care of their air system, and the lead dust is in the air handlers & ductwork, it's actually making the problem worse by blowing it around.

If the range owner is worth his salt, he'll investigate the claim. If he's been alerted that there is a potential problem for not only customers but also employees and he fails to do something about it, he's asking for big-time liability problems.

Good luck...
Q

 

[Elvishead]

www.Iamperfectlyhealthy.com

They make a detox clay from nature that removes heavy metals from your body.

 

[DickM]

They make a detox clay from nature that removes heavy metals from your body.

Well, they make a "detox" clay that they CLAIM removes heavy metals from your body. It doesn't, or at least not in amounts that exceed what would be leaving your body via fecal elimination in any case, with or without the clay. I looked through their information and it's full of half truths, untruths, and pseudoscientific jingoism - in short, bravo sierra.

If these sorts of things only separated the gullible from their money it wouldn't bother me so much. What concerns me is that people with serious or potentially serious medical problems (e.g., elevated lead) fall for this stuff and thereby forego established and proven treatments that will actually help them.

 

[481]

Well, they make a "detox" clay that they CLAIM removes heavy metals from your body. It doesn't, or at least not in amounts that exceed what would be leaving your body via fecal elimination in any case, with or without the clay. I looked through their information and it's full of half truths, untruths, and pseudoscientific jingoism - in short, bravo sierra.

If these sorts of things only separated the gullible from their money it wouldn't bother me so much. What concerns me is that people with serious or potentially serious medical problems (e.g., elevated lead) fall for this stuff and thereby forego established and proven treatments that will actually help them.

Yep, pseudoscience sold as a "miracle cure" to the unknowing and desperate. Folks who engage in this theft should be beaten senseless and left in the snow to die.

We don't secrete in our sweat significant amounts of "heavy metals" to make this even remotely viable. The only thing this will "purge" is your bank account.