Saiga 12s - Approaching extinction?

[boltgunnerguy]

Sure! Elsewhere would be anywhere outside of THR.

We don't have an Off Topic section and all our discussions are specifically focused on guns (and other weapons), shooting, RKBA, self-defense, and hunting.

Discussions of international politics, (actually any politics not specifically focused on RKBA) economics, social issues, religion, news & current events, or really anything else are not within our scope here.

That's what I meant when I said that you can say that you like a gun because it's made in the USA, but drop that subject there. We aren't going to host debates about jobs, the economy, the current president's domestic policies, foreign trade policies, outsourcing, immigration, etc.

Those are all important issues, surely, with many competing opinions and points of view. Many debates and discussions will be waged over them -- but not here. Here is where we have one thing in common -- guns -- and it's difficult enough to keep our discussions of THEM polite and gentlemanly without introducing extraneous issues into the fray.

If you really feel the need to berate or cheer someone over their opinions on these outside issues, send them a Private Message and, if they wish to respond, you may argue to your heart's content without troubling the rest of the board with it.

ok thank you, if all thats good and so forth, what about the political discussion forum? what wud that be used for other than un-needed batfe laws and discussion of if they r needed? i havent looked on their recently.........and you seem to be the nicest moderator ive tlkd to yet.....

 

[Sam1911]

ok thank you, if all thats good and so forth, what about the political discussion forum?

We don't have a political discussion forum.

We have a legal forum to discuss specific laws that are on the books or which are being considered for enactment.

And we have an "Activism" forum, where folks may encourage others to write letters, make phone calls, attend rallies and other such things -- all specifically and very directly aimed at 2nd Amendment issues.

We have an "Activism Discussion" forum for working up those plans and arguing over the details.

But we have no political forum for debating a candidate's campaign, a political party's platform, or social issues unrelated to guns, shooting, and self-defense.

 

[1stmarine]

Sorry for derailing the thread. Sometimes I just get carried away and I am not thinking in terms of firearms only.
My apologies to everyone in this thread.

 

[boltgunnerguy]

We don't have a political discussion forum.

We have a legal forum to discuss specific laws that are on the books or which are being considered for enactment.

And we have an "Activism" forum, where folks may encourage others to write letters, make phone calls, attend rallies and other such things -- all specifically and very directly aimed at 2nd Amendment issues.

We have an "Activism Discussion" forum for working up those plans and arguing over the details.

But we have no political forum for debating a candidate's campaign, a political party's platform, or social issues unrelated to guns, shooting, and self-defense.

ok i apologize for my newb like skills lol..............im just trying to get into the hang of all this.........thank you for being so understanding

 

[Sam1911]

No worries, either of you. I take full responsibility for the thread hijack.

...Now back to your regularly scheduled programming ...

 

[boltgunnerguy]

So if the tym arises for Saiga 12 extinction shall we go with the vepr 12 or AA-12?!

Vepr 12

AA-12

or Shall we venture into thy unknown and try the Pm5 or Spas 15
or any others i fail to currently know of?


and while we are looking at semi auto repeating shotguns lets look at the SRM ARMS 1216 or protecta aka street sweeper

 

[kozak6]

No. The shotguns you've mentioned are all horrifically impractical, and chances are, if the "tym" came for Saiga extinction, the "tym" has come for all "non-sporting" shotguns in general.

The stakes are much higher than your stupid Saigas. Here's the thing. The only reason every shotgun with a bore larger than .50" isn't a DD is because the Attorney General found them to be "sporting". Once you have a test for determining whether an imported shotgun is "sporting", you have a test for whether a domestic shotgun is "sporting".

Read the study. It would affect almost no imported shotguns, and it would not affect the Saiga (as imported). Since it would affect almost no imported shotguns, this might suggest that going after domestic shotguns is their real goal here.

Now, for your alternatives.

VEPR-12: There isn't a single one in the entire country. The manufacturer was bankrupted and purchased by Izhmash, the current manufacturer of the Saiga.

AA-12: Got a Class III SOT FFL?

PM-5: Uncommon, expensive, no parts.

SPAS-15: There's only about 180 in the entire country. They are absurdly expensive (the one on gunbroker has a buy it now price of $9000), ridiculously difficult to find, and there are no parts at all.

SRM 1216- Unavailible.

Protecta/Streetsweeper: Expensive Destructive Device.

You forgot the Keltec KSG. It won't be readily available for a few years.

 

[Zoogster]

kozak6 said:

the stakes are much higher than your stupid Saigas. Here's the thing. The only reason every shotgun with a bore larger than .50" isn't a DD is because the Attorney General found them to be "sporting".

That is what many fail to understand. Many are familiar with the rifle import restrictions and 922(r), and sporting and unsporting configurations for import. Yet those same guns are legal in many configurations that are not legal for import once they are already in the country.
They are also familiar with the old rules and grandfathering of the expired AWB.

If a rifle is determined unsporting in a given configuration under such restrictions it could not be imported, but can be owned. If a shotgun is determined unsporting it is a 'destructive device', and would be a destructive device even in the country, and even when manufactured domestically.
Since such a decision would also be saying that all such guns were destructive devices under the 1968 GCA changes to the NFA, and as a result have legally been destructive devices since that legislation, they would all become destructive devices retroactively.
Just like all street sweepers became destructive devices overnight.

It wouldn't "grandfather" those already purchased in either, because such a decision would likely be the same as for the striker/protecta/street sweeper. They would have to be registered as a destructive device (not an option in some states) and require the NFA process just to continue to legally own those already owned.
They did waive the $200 tax for the street sweepers when they declared them unsporting, so that is a possibility, but they didn't waive the NFA registration process.
So it's not a buy them before it is too late and be grandfathered in scenario as with imported rifles or the prior AWB, if they are declared unsporting they are being declared destructive devices, and all those already purchased prior become destructive devices as well.


There would be a major change in available parts though.
The market for most destructive devices is limited, most people just don't want to go through the NFA hassle, rules, and registration. That means most of those places doing conversions would disappear, most aftermarket accessories would cease to be made for something of dwindling popularity, etc
Those dealing with such things would have to have a SOT, which most FFLs do not, and many other factors would make it a gun that would be hard sell, and hard to buy readily made mass produced modifications for. Makers of special magazines, drums, etc would likely discontinue such products over time as fewer people purchased the "destructive devices" that used them.

 

[Zoogster]

Of course people have been saying they would be banned for many years now, pushing prices and demand higher in panic for what used to be one of the least expensive semi-auto shotguns on the market.
They were less expensive than the majority of semi-autos for quite awhile.

 

[Sam1911]

The market for most destructive devices is limited, most people just don't want to go through the NFA hassle, rules, and registration.

Certainly true, and I do hope and pray none of this comes to pass ... however ... it would be very interesting to see the ranks of NFA-owning people swell by some large number. Let's go out on a limb and say that fully half of the converted Saiga owners would ditch, destroy, reconfigure, or otherwise abandon the platform if declared a DD. (And I don't think the numbers would be anything like that extreme.) That would still leave a VERY large number of new Title II weapons owners in our community, which increases familiarity and acceptance of the "naughty" toys.

So, if there could ever be an upside of such a change, it would be to further decrease the stigma, mystery, and deterrent effect of title II classifications, increase their obvious and highly public use for "Sporting Purposes," and probably hasten the inevitable legislative revision (or even judicial vacation) of the laws surrounding the issue.

Reclassify the "Street Sweeper" as a DD (in '94?) and inconvenience a few hundred people with little organization or political clout. Reclassify Saiga 12s in 2011 and make irate, what, several hundred thousand owners, and hundreds of thousands more of their politically active and organized friends? That's going to have some repercussions.

I don't want to see that happen, but it would be interesting to watch.

 

[Shadow 7D]

OOH
if it's a DD already, can I get one of those Red Jacket shotgun silencers for it???
yeah, it would suck but many accessories for the S12 are the same as those for the rest of the Saiga line and AK's in general. So I doubt you loose the whole market, just it would get MORE expensive.

 

[PTK]

You'd still need a tax stamp for a silencer on a DD, and the Red Jacket S12 can is.... not so good. There are far, far better models available for the S12.

 

[rogertc1]

My Street Sweper became a DD in 1994 and in my State of Iowa we cant own one. We cant own a SBR or machine gun eiither. I had to Give it up or go to jail.

 

[Black Butte]

The ATF ruling at the SHOT show concerned the 28ga Taurus Judge revolver.

Now I'm curious. Would the ATF consider the Taurus Judge be fully a shotgun, or simply a handgun that had the ability to fire shotgun rounds? Is it also rifled to shoot the .45 Long Colt?

 

[Sam1911]

The Judge is a title I handgun. The legal definition of a shotgun includes "manufactured or remanufactured to be fired from the shoulder."

 

[kayak-man]

I've never handled a Saiga 12, but I have one of the rifles. It looks like a fairly simple design as far as guns go.

Suposedly AKs can be produced in other parts of the world for very little money, and every now and then I come across a thread that has someone saying how AKs can be worked on with jsut hand tools.

Is there a reason why no one over here has started producing them? Or any other AK for that matter?

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[Sam1911]

Is there a reason why no one over here has started producing them? Or any other AK for that matter?

Century has an "All American Made" AK out now. The biggest reason no one over here is producing them is that there isn't much point. For standard 7.62 and 5.45 AKs, the piles of surplus guns and parts already made are so huge, and the factories producing them so long-established and low cost that if the parts kits were dipped in gold before shipping it would still probably make sense to buy overseas than make them here.

As for the 12 ga. and .308 versions, there aren't the piles of surplus military guns of course, but much of the tooling is the same and the factory processes are the same, and of course the VERY cheap labor is already trained in how to run the equipment to build an AK.

By the time someone over here machines all the parts and assembles an AK for anything approaching a price competitive with the foreign-made guns ... well, you've got a gun not just imported, or even modified by Century ... it is literally a Century built gun. ... YMMV.

 

[Blondie]

I just scanned the BATFE study. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like they are trying to set forth criteria for shotguns that defines those that are for "sporting purpose" (which can be imported) and those that do not. They conclude that shotguns with anyone one of the following features is not for sporting purposes:

1. Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
2. bayonet lugs;
3. flash suppressors;
4. magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
5. grenade-launcher mounts;
6. integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
7. light enhancing devices;
8. excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
9. excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth); or
10. forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.

I don't think the Saiga 12 has any of these, as imported, and so would not be affected by any rules based on the study. Is that right?

Blonde

 

[Sam1911]

I don't think the Saiga 12 has any of these, as imported, and so would not be affected by any rules based on the study. Is that right?

That is correct, so far. The larger question is -- since they surely must have realized that long before they put all the effort into this 'study' -- are they angling for something more sweeping with this, (like Zoogster suggested in Post 58) like a declaration that these guns are importable and "sporting" but any that are converted to the traditional AK pattern must be registered as Title II Destructive Devices.

In other words, it is the slightly paranoid worry that government regulatory agencies don't usually make a big fuss to let everyone know that 'EVERYTHING IS JUST FINE RIGHT NOW!!! PROCEED WITH CONFIDENCE!!!' so they must be setting us up for something unpleasant.

 

[KingMedicine]

Supernaut +1

 

[Zoogster]

kayak-man said:

Suposedly AKs can be produced in other parts of the world for very little money, and every now and then I come across a thread that has someone saying how AKs can be worked on with jsut hand tools.

Is there a reason why no one over here has started producing them? Or any other AK for that matter?

I believe there is some domestic manufacturers in order to make AOW Saiga-12s. Because normally if it was made from a regular Saiga it would be a SBS as it was originally a shotgun. By starting with a virgin receiver they can make it an AOW without ever having been a shotgun.

Domestic production is much more expensive because labor in the US is a lot more. You mention hand made, yes AKs are sheet metal flats and people do bend their own receivers by hand and with a jig.
But anything hand made in the US is much more expensive, the sticker shock would be high. Boring long barrels is also a bit more difficult, and the ATF has started restricting their import recently as well.




But none of that addresses the primary problem, the problem I mention in the post above: If they are declared unsporting both imports and domestic produced versions would be destructive devices.
If a firearm over .50 bore diameter is declared unsporting then it is a destructive device, no matter who produces it.
So domestic production would both cost significantly more, and it would still be a title 2 firearm requiring registration, CLEO sign off/trust, long waits and the extra restrictions and criminal enhancements that come with a title 2 firearm.
Historically title 2 firearms produced for the civilian market have a limited market, which also reduces competition, and increases prices over typical mainstream firearms made through mass production.


As I said earlier the market for accessories, parts, magazines, drums, stocks and other things would also crumble if they were title 2 firearms. There wouldn't be nearly the volume of sales of the guns or associated accessories if they were title 2 firearms, so many of those aftermarket options readily available now would eventually cease to be produced.
Years from now you might find it difficult to repair a drum, or buy new parts for discontinued accessories.

So both parts, accessories, and the firearms themselves would cost much more, and still be NFA restricted firearms. Selling and transferring such firearms would also be more difficult because it is more challenging to find buyers willing and able to successful make it through the process for NFA items.

 

[Shadow 7D]

right, so it can be imported
BUT, the bafte can declare a shotgun Un-Sporting, then with a bore of .50, it automatically becomes a DD

 

[Carl N. Brown]

You know the 1968 Gun Control Act "sporting purposes" limitation is at odds with the history of the 1903 Civilian Marksmanship Program promoting military arms training, the 1939 Miller decision specificly protecting guns suitable for militia muster, and the ATF's Curio & Relic list recognizing military arms has having legitimate collector interest. And Heller '08 and McDonald '10 were not about "sporting purposes" either but arms suitable for self-defense.

 

[Ignition Override]

1stmarine and a few other folks mentioned gun show (or shop) sellers seeing little demand for the S-12 a while back.

A friend who attends almost every show in this area had a dozen brand-new S-12s for sale less than two years ago, and listed them at typical retail prices.

The guns finally sold after several months or more. People who had the cash back then had plenty of chances to buy them.
Late in '08, lots of people rushed out to buy an AR, AK etc, just in case "they" decided to waste precious "political capitol" on a secondary issue-an attempt to ban them.

Many of these AR/AK etc owners realized later that they had never been interested in them, and dumped them on the market.

 

[DammitBoy]

You know the 1968 Gun Control Act "sporting purposes" limitation is at odds with the history of the 1903 Civilian Marksmanship Program promoting military arms training, the 1939 Miller decision specificly protecting guns suitable for militia muster, and the ATF's Curio & Relic list recognizing military arms has having legitimate collector interest. And Heller '08 and McDonald '10 were not about "sporting purposes" either but arms suitable for self-defense.

So where are the lawsuits to strike down the '68 gun control act?