Saiga .308 16" - Ak reliability and M1A Accuracy at .22LR prices.

[1stmarine]

Yesterday It was freezing here but I took one of the Saigas out and after my skeet shooting session headed for the rifle range.

I wasn't expecting much due to the cold and wind but the .308 did it again. It was hard yesterday as the cold caught up with me.

I took a pic of one 3 shot group. The phone pictures are not the best so it is hard to see how two bullets when almost through the same hole (above) not more than 1/2" apart from the other hole....

Temperature 15.F Wind 10Mph 90dg.
100 Yards. SAiga .308 Conversion1
Load 7.62x51 NATO DAG 150gr nick.cuppro FMJ - surplus
Position: seating grip-bypod. No sandbags.



Sorry for the phone quality pics....



Cheers,
E.

 

[1stmarine]

mcdonl,
I am going to start with the saiga 12 that should cover the receiver conversion, pretty much the same thing. I can take some pictures or video if you want but it is not going to be better that some of the videos out there already.
Also I can ask questions as you go. I am not Spilberg but a few pictures is a given as I go through the different steps if anybody wants?
Thanks.

 

[notasfancy]

Any updates on the UTG stock? Can this be used in the .308?

 

[mcdonl]

1stmarine, I started!! I am so excited, and nervous. I have never done anything of this magnitude, even though it is a small job.

This is the kit I used



I wanted to take a picture in case it was the last time I saw this gun working



Field Stripped and ready for (gulp) the drill!



If you look carefully you can see that I did not mess up the holes at all. I took my time, used the files and it came out nice...



Some old parts that went in the parts box...



The receiver after the trigger guard and plate were removed.



The old trigger guard and plate.



Tomorrow I will touch up the paint, and install the bullet guide. If time permits I will also start the re-assembly but I am not Russianit.

 

[1stmarine]

It will fire and run like a charm so do not worry about that.
I can tell you are doing very VERY well. Save that trigger guard. You can cut where the extension goes and paint it too and you will be able to bolt it in the front and the back. The front you can just slide under the magazine catch piece and put a rivet before you put the trigger group and in the back a small bolt and nut with some nice washers. The grip will cover it. Why is it the tip of the trigger guard bent? The other side is the one that you want to cut right where it steps down and use the existing hole for the rivet. You need the 1/8 bit to drill a small hole in the receiver just inside the turret that holds the mag. latch. then run a tad with the file and sand it a little and paint with the receiver.
Do not rush. Let the flat paint sit for a couple of days.
If you need pictures of this I will send you what I can.
Cheers,
E.

 

[1stmarine]

The Saiga 12 below is another one to be converted. Almost the same process all the way...



The UTG Rails USA MADE, 922r compliant ....



Cheers,
E.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

My saiga 308 was my first conversion and took entirely too long but it was still fun. I mainly followed that cross-conn guide that nanolith commented was horribly outdated and he's right.
My two biggest snags on the 308 were the additional spot welds on the trigger plate that are not covered in that guide (used a dremel to grind them down and pried them off), and a hammer clearance issue that I think is pretty rare (the squared front corner was hitting one of the cross pins, rounded it off with the dremel and cured the issue).
The second conversion that I did shortly after, because I was immediately addicted to Saigas, was the S-12. That one went together very quickly like I knew what I was doing. The biggest problem on that one was making a limbsaver grind-to-fit pad work with the K-Var buttstock which would have been easier had one of my cheapo harbor freight drill bits not decided to break off in the stock.
I hope to SBS it and make a nasty little scattergun eventually.
I think these are the absolute best bang for the buck battle rifles available even though they cost more now than they did at first. I got both for under $500 each and the conversion parts total never ran over $150.
I highly recommend Dinzag for the conversion parts. He grinds the fire control group down to give them a glass-smooth trigger pull, and (important on the 308) work with the safety, plus his prices are decent. His name is Brian Smithwick and he was an invaluable help whenever I ran into an issue!

 

[1stmarine]

Yes! the spot weld spots in the .308 were a bit of a pain but I drilled slowly and they came off w/o putting any noticeable marks in the receiver below.
I understand the addiction. I am the same way with AKs, ARs and others. specially to something as reliable and easy to work with as these nifty systems... and the accuracy of the .308!. That was a great discovery and surprise a few years back.
I haven't tried the Dinzag but I heard only good reports so I have to get something from them. At the moment I am trying to use the tapco stuff that I already got for several conversions. So far I have been lucky with all the choices.
Overall very good quality in all US made parts, TAPCO, Kvar, UTG (us made), etc...
Cheers,
E.

 

[1stmarine]

mcdonl,
Sorry I just saw you have a new trigger guard so save this one for a future conversion just in case.
Also put mask tape around the rest of the receiver right on the edge. The edge of the receiver is a good point to break the difference between the different tones of black.
Cheers.
E.

 

[Col. Plink]

Now my v.21 has the 'slant-cut' receiver. Does this limit or enhance its furniture options? (not that I don't love the thumbhole wood stock)

 

[1stmarine]

Col.Plink,
I think you would have lots of options with some research and if you are a little handy you can probably adapt one for a milled receiver. I did adapt one meant for milled receiver to work in the stamped receiver and I was able to customize the angle/drop of the stock (See pictures of the AK-47 Tan in the post). I am not an expert in the VEPR/ but I have seen options where you can get an adapter for any AR type of stock you want.
I just looked these up... It looks that ACE has one. http://www.aceltdusa.com/VEPR.htm
I don't know about these.... http://www.tacticalexcellence.com/veprsa.html

Good luck.

 

[mcdonl]

Well, something is not right. I got the bullet guide in, got the pistol grip and everything installed but the trigger seems funny. It does not "spring" back after pulling it. The BHO, hammer, slide and everything else seems to function fine but the trigger seems to be lacking some sort of "pressure" after it has been pulled. The spring that holds the disconnect is installed, the only way I thought it could be. I will take pictures this weekend.

 

[1stmarine]

mcdonl,
The hammer spring must be pushing both the hammer forward on one side and the trigger forward on the other side. Those little bents ride over the trigger extension inside the receiver to then push it back forward as you release your finger. Also make sure the trigger group axle after installing the pin has enough room across as the bolt retain might put too much pressure across and doesn't allow the group to turn freely. Sometimes you have to take the file and dremel and shave a bit from both sides evenly. Just a little at the time and try again until you get it to move.
I will take one of mine apart to show you how it is done and video tape it if necessary.
At any time if you do not feel comfortable I would consult with a gunsmith or expert but do not give up yet. Those sound like the typical hiccups of a first time conversion.

In the mean time take a look at this video about how to do it right. See the last thing he does is to put the retain spring (you have a retain plate) and finally the hammer spring and after cutting the tie-down he has to hold it together he seats the springs in the back of the trigger that is what resets the trigger. Since this is a saiga 12 like in the .308 he has to shave a bit of the hump in the front of the hammer (below the actual hammer head) but in .223, 7.62x39 and 5.45 is not necessary (at least with tapco and kvar triggers I think). The other important thing is as I mentioned above this person takes 50/1000ths of the right hand so there is room for the bolt hold plate. Most AKs do not have this that is why the trigger is a little wider. I hope this helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yek8AfLlu-s


Cheers,
E.

 

[mcdonl]

That video helped a lot! I got it now!

 

[1stmarine]

Beautiful!!! Great Job!!!
Make sure you blow air on it and take it all down and clean it real well after all the metal dust and metal shavings! I thought that if that video didn't help you I was going to take one my triggers apart.
So what was the problem?
Cheers,
E.

 

[1stmarine]

Arsenal and Saigas. Same pedigree.

All that arsenal does is that they have a different agreement with a company Legion LTD in russia that gets them from the Izmash manufacturing plant where they make the AK 101,102,103,104,105 and 74M carbines and then this 3rd party company goes through a transition condition to get them ready for export and import in the USA. Then Arsenal they work in a regular conversion here with some US furniture and rename them SGLs. They are the same baseline carbines up the mil specs out of the same factory. There are some small details in the receiver as required by the final military rifles that after converted make them look more like the original.
Some people rather to pay double to have that and that is ok. Some people like to convert themselves the sporterized version of the izhmash as it is required like that for imports and it is ok too, whether they do it to save money or to have fun doing it.

This are the 3 options to get a nice Russian made carbine or shotgun:

First Izmash manufactures the carbines..
http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/weapon.shtml

Option A
1- The company Legion Customs shop gets the carbines form Izmash and prepares them for export to the USA as they original AKs cannot be imported in the USA.... http://www.exclusivegun.ru/en/index.php/catalog
2-Then Legion Customs sends the systems to Arsenal in the USA where they change the parts again to make them US 922r compliant.....
http://www.arsenalinc.com/index.htm
3-Arsenal distributes them through resellers in the USA.

Option B
1- Izmash that sends the saigas to Russian American Armory USA. They do no need any modification as they already 'sporterized' versions.
http://raacfirearms.com/Saiga.htm
2-Russian American Armory in the usa distributes them through resellers in the USA and handy buyers convert anyway they want. Make sure you make yours 922r compliant, there is no comprehensible reason for not having yours compliant but I have seen many online that are not.

Option C
Find an original Russian Preban, and pay for it. Probably too much.

Whatever you choose, buy often, shoot often and put them on your gun rack and enjoy your collection.

Cheers,
E.

 

[1stmarine]

mcdonl,
What was the problem with the trigger group and how did you solve it?
Thanks.

 

[mcdonl]

Ok, so the problem was with the hammer spring. I am not sure if I had it on wrong, or what but I took everything out and put it all back together based on the video you posted of the CSS folks.

The floss method is ok, but pretty much by learning the parts and how they work the job becomes easier. Putting it all together is better when you know what the different parts do.

I am only working a half shift on Sunday so I plan to get to the range!!

 

[1stmarine]

Hey thanks and good luck. tell us how it goes.
Did you have to shave a bit from the right side as they recommended so the bolt retain plate doesn't put too much pressure in the trigger group.
I find the floss totally unnecessary and some good needle nose pliers is all you need.
Cheers,
E.

 

[mcdonl]

Nope, the hammer fit just fine. I think the kits that CSS sell are update to fix this problem.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Wasn't it nice of Izhmash to cut the pistol grip nut hole and real AK trigger hole for us, even if it's gotta hide behind that Brady-friendly American trigger plate
P.S. - If you are married you may want to tell your wife you have probably contracted SCOD (Saiga Conversion Obsession Disorder) and to expect the Russian rifles to start multiplying. Also, your vodka intake may increase.

 

[1stmarine]

DoubleTapDrew,

I just saved a bunch of money by swithch to SAIGA! lol

They are actually the same receiver plates they use for mil spec, same mills same everything, that is why they are saving money by sticking the ugly plate and distorted triggers for he 'Obamanized' version. And that makes some happy campers here so we do not have to get junkyard surplus from Romania put together by some armorers wannabes.

I suffer the same disease. lol

Also have ARtitis and FNanoides and Glockonitis. lol

 

[mcdonl]

P.S. - If you are married you may want to tell your wife you have probably contracted SCOD (Saiga Conversion Obsession Disorder) and to expect the Russian rifles to start multiplying.

I have a closet that is locked. Where my "stuff" is and she caught me struggling to get the door closed last night

I need to wait for her and the kids to leave town on February vacation before I put my new Pardner 12g Pump and Savage Axis in the closet too

 

[mac66]

So.....has anyone figured out a suitable magazine that can be converted to a Saiga 308? I just can't stomach the cost of a $35 aftermarket plastic mag. There has to be something out there that can be used.

 

[1stmarine]

There are some ideas to convert M1A/M14 magazines but went and had to mill out material from the trunnion. You also have the issue if this is legal or not in your state. I will never touch the trunnion. If others want to try that is ok if they wan to take the risk. Not me. At the other hand it would be interesting to see if some other viable option could be found.

The Surefire magazines are $38 but they are not "plastic". They are from a very good and strong polymer that will outlast your lifetime. I don't see a need for more than 2 or 3 '25/20 rounders' and another 2 or 3 '10 rounders' for the bench unless you are going to war or something.

Cheers.
E.