Saiga owners out there

[rockheadd]

Decided, all things considered, that a Saiga's the way to go. That being said, the question remains- 7.62x39 or .308. 16" or 22" barrel?
What are the pros/cons of each? I know the following already:
1. .308 costs about $150 more out of the box
2. 7.62x39 ammo is less expensive (if you can find any)

The rest is up to you guys. What are the parameters?
1. Reliability- I'd imagine it's the same for all configurations
2. Accuracy- If the MOA for the 7.62x39 is around 4" at 100 yds, that's all I'd expect/hope for. The .308 I'd expect a better MOA, say 3" at 250 yds or better. Anyone getting that with the .308? Either barrel length?
3. Magazines- any 20 round ones out there have a very high reliability rate?
4. Is the Tapco T-6 stock worth the money? I have a Tapco stock on my 10/22 and it's "okay" but nothing to write home about. Any other synthetic stocks out there that are a better choice, telescoping or swivel...
I almost bought a Romy GP75, but decided at the last moment that my money would be better spent on the Saiga...was I right?

 

[nalioth]

Tapco is what it is. One gets what one pays for.

GP 1975 versus a Saiga? No contest. The Saiga is all new and built at the Izhmash factory right next to it's AK-103 siblings.

The GP 1975 is built by Century monkeys from parts kit that came from who-knows-what-ditch . . .

 

[dscottw88]

Saiga is one of the best AKs money can buy. I'd go with a 7.62x39 model that has a 16" barrel. The 22" doesn't increase accuracy, only a little velocity, but in that caliber, you'll be fine. There are probably more dead people on this planet from 16" AKs than any other firearm.

 

[gandog56]

You did not mention the .223 option. I was laughing the last time at the range when the guy next to me broke out a box of 500 rounds of Wolf for his AR-15. He had misfire after misfire. He gave me a box, and my Saiga ate them like candy. I'll bet my Saiga only cost a quarter of what his AR set him back.

 

[malix]

Ive got one in 7.62x39 and one in .308, and i would also recommend the x39 with 16" barrel.

Remember that the 7.62x39 can use standard AK mags once it has been converted, but the mags on the .308 will be more expensive and plastic.

 

[JWarren]

I've owned a few AKs, and one was a converted Saiga 308. I'll do my best to comment:

The rest is up to you guys. What are the parameters?

1. Reliability- I'd imagine it's the same for all configurations

My Saiga 308 never had a misfeed or any other failure. Same with all the other AKs that I owned.

2. Accuracy- If the MOA for the 7.62x39 is around 4" at 100 yds, that's all I'd expect/hope for. The .308 I'd expect a better MOA, say 3" at 250 yds or better. Anyone getting that with the .308? Either barrel length?

First, there is NO MOA for a particular rifle. MOA is MOA--- minute of angle. MOA is roughly an inch at 100 yards, then roughly 2 inches at 200 yards, etc...

MOA measure of 1/360 of a circle.


This may help:

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/MilDot_MOA.asp


My Saiga 308, using optics, a bench, and quality ammunition could achieve, but not maintain over several shots, about 1.5 MOA-- but I considered it more of a 2 MOA rifle considering how it started to string after about 5 shots.

3. Magazines- any 20 round ones out there have a very high reliability rate?

The 20 round magazines for my Saiga 308 from FBMG were very reliable.

4. Is the Tapco T-6 stock worth the money? I have a Tapco stock on my 10/22 and it's "okay" but nothing to write home about. Any other synthetic stocks out there that are a better choice, telescoping or swivel...
I almost bought a Romy GP75, but decided at the last moment that my money would be better spent on the Saiga...was I right?

The only thing I really care for made by Tapco is the G2 Trigger.

I put an ACE non-folding stock on my Saiga 308 and really liked it. I considered going for the folding mechanism to add to mine

If you add the ACE AR stock trunnion to any AK, you can use any AR stock you want-- and there are PLENTY to choose from such as Magpul, Vltor, LMT, etc.



-- John

 

[lipadj46]

MOA measure of 1/360 of a circle.

Not really that is a degree, divide again by 60 and you got it.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Be careful with the tapco stock. It's not an American made gun, so if you want to add stuff that would make it an "assault weapon" you need to have a certain number (not sure exactly what) of American components.

 

[JWarren]

lipad,

duh... been a long day... thanks.


-- John

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

I would go with the 16" 7.62x39. In fact, I already have. A big advantage of the x39 is the availability of uber-reliable com-bloc magazines. With the .308, you pretty much just have the plastic Surefire and FBMG.

I have the Tapco T6 on mine (except with a Magpul CTR), but I don't really like it. It has this slight downward drop that is irritating. Go with the Vltor or Command Arms aluminum stock instead.

 

[quatin]

What do you want to do with it?
Plink? x39
Hunt? .308

you pretty much just have the plastic Surefire and FBMG.

There are prototypes of metal 20 round saiga 308 mags floating around. It seems like someone is about to make them.

 

[chris in va]

Just get the x39 16" and be done. Mine has been great. Dinzag and KVar can hook you up with the needed conversion parts.

 

[Hammerhead6814]

Ask the guys on the Saiga Forums (google it).

If anyone would know, Indyarms or Nailoth would know Saiga rifles better than anyone. Saiga-12, 20, or .410, I don't know, but Indyarms and Nailoth have the rifles down to a science.

 

[sarduy]

if you want a 308 get a 20'' if you go with the x39 get a 16''

this is my 20'' .223

 

[Girodin]

I own a saiga in each of the main calibers .223 x39, and .308.

If I could only keep one it would probably be the x39. If I was going to recomend one to someone who didn't have some specific prupose that ruled out one caliber or another i would definately recommend the x39. Here is why:

COST The x39 is not only less than the .308 in intial cost but it is the cheapest to get set up and shoot. Ammo is cheapest for it, mags are cheaper and more readily available than for any of the other saigas. Right now you have FBMG or surefire mags for a .308. Com block steel mags are less than half the price. Certain conversion parts are cheaper for the .308. The x39 comes out of my safe more than the others simply because it is cheaper to shoot.

As to the pro cons of each, well as I stated above the x39s biggest pro for me is cost and mag availability. It is a softer recoiling than the 308. It has greater mag capacity. May be easier and/or cheaper to convert.

The pro for the .308 is that it is a more powerful round. If you dont really need more power or range than a 7.62x39 then that is not much of an advatage. If you really do then it is a huge one.

I will give my thoughts on your list.

Relaibility. I have shot the x39s much more than the others. That said they have all run flawlessly. I have a high level of conifdence in any of them on that front.

In terms of accuracy. If you are shooting cheap ammo that will likely be the limiting factor for either. I have never shot my saigas from a bench or with optics. Honestly that is not why I bought them. I do not believe mechanical accuracy is the limiting factor the way I shoot them (with open sights and from field positions). Shooting that way I cannot percieve a difference in accuracy between them. last time I was out I consistantly made hits on a 8" circular target at 200 yards with my x39. The others might have an advatage out to longer ranges. The above is good enough accuracy for my purposes. One day I would like to put a scope on and shoot some groups just to see but I haven't yet. I see alot of reports to indicate these are 2 MOA guns or better with decent ammo.

Barrel legnth. If it is a x39 I would get the 16". It is lighter and handier. I also believe the shorter barrel looks much better. On the .308 some claim better accuracy with the 16" barrel which is attributed to them being more rigid. You will lose velocity with the shorter barrel. How much does that really matter for you? I bought a 16" in 308 largely because it was what was available at a very good price. That might help you make a decision as well.

I am happy with the 16" barrel for my purposes. Again it is lighter and a handier quicker handling weapon. There are some threads on the Saiga 12 forums that discuss the issue at legth. I wont bother to rehash it all.

20 rd Mags were you talking about for the 308 or the x39? FBMG is doing a run of new and improved 20 rounders for the .308. Not cheap but I expect them to be good mags.

Tapco stock: I would pass on that one. Please what ever you do dont go with that awefull stock/pistol grip combo that doesn't requier moving the fire control group. It is sooooo ugly and since it doesn't give most of the advantages of a proper conversion it is a waste of money IMHO.

Will your money be better spent on a saiga. I think so. In fact I will tell you it may not matter what caliber you get. The things are addictive and you might well end up with all of them anyways. At a minimum be prepaired to spring for a shotgun (or two). I just need to find one of those 30'06s, and maybe the 20 gauge.

 

[rockheadd]

Alright, after getting all the feedback from you guys as well as some others, I've decided the 16" 7.62x39 is the way I'll go. Some questions about that particular rifle:
1. Will it accept standard AK magazines as is, or do I need to convert the receiver? If conversion required- is there a kit or is it simple to do? (by simple I mean with a dremel, screwgun, some files- very basic stuff)
2. I've heard that there is something to do with a "trunnion" conversion that will allow any standard AK stock conversion to be made. Any idea what this is? The ATI Strikeforce conversion looks pretty interesting... Once again, is there kit or can it be simply done by a rough framer, not a gunsmith?
3. I'm looking at the ones offered at Arms of America (since it's close) or Gilberts Guns. I have no idea if they are the "flat plate" receiver or whatever the guys over at Saiga12 are talking about. In case you haven't realized it yet, this is totally foreign to me...I had issues getting my Ruger Mark 1 back together after field stripping it.
Thanks for the help and I'm looking forward to getting the Saiga up and running soon (if I can find some 7.62x39 ammo around here)

 

[JWarren]

1. Will it accept standard AK magazines as is, or do I need to convert the receiver? If conversion required- is there a kit or is it simple to do? (by simple I mean with a dremel, screwgun, some files- very basic stuff)

To accept standard AK magazines, the 7.62x39 rifle needs to have a bullet feed ramp installed. This requires drilling and tapping.

Do a search for Dinzag to get his kit. It is inexpensive, and you will be able to do it yourself.

You really need to do a search for "Saiga Forum" and go read there a while. Those guys have forgotten more about Saigas than most know here.

2. I've heard that there is something to do with a "trunnion" conversion that will allow any standard AK stock conversion to be made. Any idea what this is? The ATI Strikeforce conversion looks pretty interesting... Once again, is there kit or can it be simply done by a rough framer, not a gunsmith?

I'm not certain about a trunnion conversion. When I had mine converted, there was nothing that needed to be done to use the standard AK stock. The pistol grip and FCG had to be moved, however. (which is no big deal.)

3. I'm looking at the ones offered at Arms of America (since it's close) or Gilberts Guns. I have no idea if they are the "flat plate" receiver or whatever the guys over at Saiga12 are talking about. In case you haven't realized it yet, this is totally foreign to me...I had issues getting my Ruger Mark 1 back together after field stripping it.

I don't want to disparage any business unless I have first hand experiences, but it is my understanding that Arms of America is/was associated with JoeKen Firearms. I think that AoA was started by Andy who worked for JoeKen. While I do not know that Andy had anything directly to do with the JoeKen debacle, it makes me awefully hesitant.

Gilberts' Guns has a great reputation.


Seriously, check out the Saiga-12 forums.


-- John

 

[rockheadd]

Thanks JWarren,
I've been reading the posts over at Saiga-12, there are 121 pages in the 7.62x39 area alone. Yeah, they are really into these rifles. Saw a thread on filing the mag catch a little at a time and it will eventually accept standard AK mags...kinda gives me the willies though...
I think what I'll do is get ahold of my FFL dealer and get the ball rolling with buying the rifle first (more than likely Gilberts)and then talk to a couple gunsmiths around here. Being in Prescott, AZ and having J&G Sales and Gunsite Ranch in the area, there's bound to be someone who knows more about the Saiga's than anyone has a right too.
Who knows, perhaps I'll like it just the way it is...
Although, some of the conversions are just plain amazing...

 

[nalioth]

2. I've heard that there is something to do with a "trunnion" conversion that will allow any standard AK stock conversion to be made. Any idea what this is? The ATI Strikeforce conversion looks pretty interesting... Once again, is there kit or can it be simply done by a rough framer, not a gunsmith?

I've never head of such a thing.

I know that folks who've never worked on a gun before in their lives can convert a Saiga in an afternoon.

Plenty of those stories over at the Saiga forum. There is also a wealth of knowledge on conversions and many cool pix.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Get both. 16" on x39, and 22" on .308. Which one to get first is the hard question - I'd go .308 first.

 

[quatin]

Converting the x39 is not as easy as the .308. However, if you can put furniture together you can make a successful conversion. That being said, you do need to measure twice and cut once. You can royally mess up your gun by drilling in the wrong place. The steps for the x39 is the most documented, you can just google it and there will be illustrated step by step instructions. If you don't want to go through the hassle, just wait on the WTS forums on THR,ar15,saiga12forums and etc. There's plenty of converted saigas being sold.

 

[ambergerftriley]

as far as the saigas go, im currently in love with the 12 guage. it eats all sizes of 12 guage rounds. slug, shot, 2 1/2 inch to 3 1/2 inch.

 

[Girodin]

Many people will tell you the most difficult part of doing a saiga conversion is working up the courage to take a drill to your gun. IMO that is completely true. It really is very simple. Go to youtube and search saiga conversion and you can see a guy do it on his kitchen table. It genuinely requires a very low level of mechanical ability. Watch the video and read through some of the online tutorials and you'll see just what it takes.

 

[rangerruck]

the x39, with hollowpoint ammo, in the 16 inch, is surprisingly accurate...

 

[Cpt. America]

Great gun wouldn't trade mine for nothing. Never jammed or misfired. Surprisingly accurate too.