Saw a Saiga 12 in action this weekend

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or even the ocasional 3 gun
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Well, in my local 3gun club, www.udpl.net, I've managed to win probably 80% of the shotgun only stages I've shot in with a Saiga. I don't think I ever lost one that was over 12 rounds. My local club has some pretty good shotgunners also. Though I only shot a couple of matches in 2006 because of opening my gunstore. Did pretty good 2004-05. Have not shot in any national matches with a Saiga yet.

I'm glad you guys have your minds made up. More people for me to beat. :) And if you think I'm talking smack, ask Dave McC or sm.
 
I suppose I should explain my "flimsy" comment, since it's gotten folks riled.

I've owned two Remington autoloading weapons in my life. An 11-87 shotgun and a 7400 rifle in .30-06. Both are very similar in design.

A LOT of old shotgun pros on here won't trust their lives to an autoloader shotgun. Why? Because autoloading shotguns haven't gotten the development and ruggedization that autoloading rifles have; the shotgun is a very minor weapon for militaries, if they're issued at all, and pump guns have always filled the role nicely.

To compare the 7400 to my FAL, which is a military design, well...there IS no comparison. The 7400 wouldn't survive a week in the hands of a soldier in the field. It wasn't designed for that.

Neither were the Remington autoloading shotguns. They're flimsy compared to a Saiga the way the 7400 is compared to my FAL. It's not the fault of the gun that it won't fill a role it was never intended for. From what I understand, the gas system is the big weakness on most autoloading shotguns.

For most shooters, this will never make a difference. However, in my opinion, the Saiga is a superior design to nearly every Western autoloading shotgun, to include the Benellis, in the same way that the Kalashnikov rifle is superior to a Remington 7400. Will it be as slick as a Benelli? Probably not, but for 1/3rd the cost you get a gun that's a heck of a lot easier to field strip and requires less cleaning. (Plus, Benelli shotguns are length-inefficient. The M1014 shotgun has an 18" or so barrel, a 6-round tube, but the same overall length as a Mossberg 590 with a 20" barrel and an eight round tube.)

Oh, plus, they cost less. :D
 
As far as practicality it throws slugs as well as any smoothbore and I dropped a doe DRT on opening day with it. I haven't shot skeet or birds with it as I don't participate in those activities yet, but I have a two rd mag just in case. The only thing I don't like is the only chokes that will attach to the factory threads have to be ordered from Russia. Some people have had their bbls threaded to accept polychokes and others.
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It's cool that the things are threaded for chokes, though! That would make 'em effective on small game and such in an wilderness survival scenerio even if you didn't actually prefer one for hunting. But, with a pistol grip and such weird ergos, I wouldn't think it'd be the gun for busting clays or wing shooting. I'll keep my sporting arms, thanks.:D I really don't like pistol grips on a field gun, rifle or shotgun. Hard to carry and then you got a 10 round mag sticking out, pretty much port arms or slung over the back. Can't exactly cradle it and come up with it with any speed when a bird or rabbit flushes nor can you break it over and put it over your shoulder which I do with doubles when I'm not actively hunting for safety.

I don't think this thing is much of a sporting arm other than deer where rifles aren't allowed, be pretty decent from a blind. Might be okay for Turkey, too, with a good tight choke. You don't walk around cradling the gun turkey hunting, you sit with the gun ready and a pistol grip can actually be an aid in that position. For any sort of bird hunting, though, I'll take my sporting guns. Rifle sights for turkey hunting are a definite plus. But, I see the thing more in a wilderness role, survival or preditor protection, practical uses anyway, blowing up watermelons at the range aside. :D Of course, you CAN do whatever you want to try with the gun, just my opinions on the subject. Having chokes, though, is a definite plus! A poly choke would be cool on the gun, too, but so long as you can choke it with screw in chokes, that's what I'd do. I had a poly choke on an old mossberg barrel once and while it was butt ugly on that gun, it worked! It did give a bit of a strange sight plane, but with the Saiga, you ain't worried about that.
 
Yeah I imagine there are better choices than a Saiga for clays or birds as the longest bbl Saiga 12 I know of is 24". Not all S-12s are threaded, but the ones that are have external threads. Supposedly Polychoke is thinking about making some chokes for the S-12 factory threads. I don't know if anybody has had one internally threaded. I plan on getting the Russian choke set sometime when funds allow. I think going afield with a 10-rounder would be cumbersome. I won't have to worry about that though as the limit for semiauto shotgun or rifle for hunting in MI is 5+1. I just take a couple of 5s with me. I bet some people have (or at least thought about) plugging a 10-rounder to 5 for hunting purposes. Personally I like a pistol grip for carrying in the field, but to each their own. I don't see myself seriously shooting clays or birds with it, but I would like to try turkey hunting.
 
Can't exactly cradle it and come up with it with any speed
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Well...I carry a pistol gripped, high-capacity firearm, cradle it and can come up with quite a bit of speed.

One of the first reviews I read about the Saiga took it to the range to bust clays, which it evidently did surprisingly well. The reviewer, in fact, suggested buying one for just that reason, to get under the skin of folks shooting $1500 guns.

The very first review I read, in SOF, mentioned an engineer taking umbrage at a question of whether the Saiga was as dependable as a regular AK...so he took a handful of sand and gravel, poured it into the receiver, shook it up, and handed the Saiga back to keep shooting. No problems.

John
 
My biggest issue with 'em has gonna be the cost of mags. Looks like even the factory five-round mags are $40+ and the higher-cap mags that I've found in the last 24hrs can run up to double that. :what:

Dang. There's a 19" on the shelf of my FLG right now, and I'd love to put it in the safe on layaway. But I don't want to do that if I can't find/afford mags for it... <sigh>
 
One's been on my want list for years. Usually local stores didn't have them in 12 GA, though...
 
I wonder when they're going to win an olympic gold medal in skeet or trap?:rolleyes: Don't they have rifle sights? I don't exactly "sight" when I'm wing shooting, I point, it's quicker and more natural to me. Then, again, maybe I'm too old school. So be it and so I shall remain. But, when I'm wing shooting, I hardly even notice the gun. It's as if I'm pointing my finger or some anatomical part of my body. If I find myself concentrating on any sight picture, I'm usually missing. When I'm "in the zone", I don't even notice the gun, I'm following through, I'm weight forward, I'm concentrating only on the bird.
 
MCgunner, I probably won't shoot my 1911 in Olympic airgun either. What's your point? That the Saiga isn't the best shotgun for every single conceivable sport that there's ever been? Okay, gotcha. :)

I've done low 20s also with a Saiga also, but I'm not a trap guy. sm has been giving me crap about that for years. :p
 
:D Well, about the only clays shooting I do is with the local gun club and there ain't any big wallets shooting out there. Mostly field guns. We do a country doubles every now and then. It's big fun and a well handled Saiga, while out of the ordinary, could clean all the clocks considering the competition. ROFL! I know I've never won it, but I've got a new double that I think might be the ticket! :D IC choke on that first bird and quick handling to swing around on that long bird with full choke. Next time they shoot country doubles, I'm gonna get out there and try it. Problem with it is you have to get that first bird quick to get over on the second one before it gets too far out. Takes a quick shot off the first trap at close range. Best score I've seen out there is 8 ot of 10. I never saw anyone clean 10 birds.:banghead: :D Not too many doubles show up. Everyone has a Mossberg budget.:D My double set me back $299 the other day, a Remington Spartan 20 gauge built by Biakal. Not exactly eye candy, but it shoots fine.
 
:D

I am waiting for the Wood & Blue Model in 28 gauge myself. :neener:

Here is the deal, we have shotgunners and we have folks that own shotguns to bolt stuff on and off and post from NetNinja chairs.

I am not a trap shooter - I have shot trap. I started with skeet. I hung with trap shooters and all sorts of shotgunners, even what we called "Two Gun" - even though we might shoot handgun, shotgun and a rifle...we just could not count is all. :p Did 5 stand, Sporting Clays, Columbaire and Live Pigeon.

Heck "we" supported each other - no matter what discipline we shot. Trap guys and I'd shoot with a H&R Topper single shot. My "fancy high dollar Half-Double gun".
I told folks I had it "built" for Half-Dangerous Game...:D
By the way that smart aleck comment is good to have a trap shooter get tickeled and miss. :p

Of course I have shot some real high dollar fancy double guns...same folks that owned these as crazy as I am. We shot Police Issued Ithaca 37's , H&R Toppers [ do that for skeet and one better get the feel for getting a second shell in - in a hurry for the doubles], probably the first idiots to shoot Trap , 5 stand and Sporting clays with .410s , 28 gauges...
Oh one of my partners shot 100/100 at trap using a Beretta 303 in 20 gauge.


Saiga...oh heck why not.
I was taught to spend the trigger time and the goal to be where one can paint them out of the sky with a stick.

Saiga just a black stick that takes a magazine is all. :D

Me...never been about me, always about others. I keep a NEF Youth Single Shot 20 ga handy at home.
When I assist others...I often tote a single shot .410 as my "assisting and toting tool". That or a single shot 28 gauge. I use it to demonstrate and assist with...
Awerbuck uses a Red Gun - I use a single shot or whatever handy. Been known to use a Marlin 60 stock only - with no gun in it at all....
One person has one Youth .410 single shot in NEON Yeller with paint that shows up under a Black Light.
I look good with this gun. :feeling groovy dude: :cool:

I'd shoot a Saiga...my hankering leans toward a OLDer 20 ga SXS with double triggers and fixed chokes.
I retired My SX1 I think with ~ 300,000 rds I fired thru it...
I most often don't even show up with a shotgun, just use whatever is handy and shoot whatever shells are there...if I shoot at all.
Last dove hunts, never fired a shot, it was about others shooting ...I pull through a bird and whisper "bang".

I gotta wonder what a game warden would do checking a Saiga for Migratory Game Bird Plug...

I have seen Winchester 1400s give the new wardens fits...
Saiga ought to really drive them batty. :evil:

Y'all get some 3 round restricted magazines and get back to me on this...*grin*
 
Gotta love shotgun snobs

I think shotgun snobs are probably the snobbiest of guns snobs. The Beretta Xtrema is extraordinarily over priced. Beretta has made very good use of plastic.

I was planning on getting a folding stock Saiga for I. skeet, but didn't do it while they were cheap.
 
With 12 shots in 1.73 seconds, that Beretta video is only running at about 400 rounds per minute. The Saiga runs about 900 RPM in full auto, so with the right operator, it would be no trouble to match the Beretta speed.

Just my gut feel, about the fastest a shooter can run a semi auto is 600rpm based on what I have seen. That would be 12 rounds in 1.2 seconds.
 
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I gotta wonder what a game warden would do checking a Saiga for Migratory Game Bird Plug...
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Y'all get some 3 round restricted magazines and get back to me on this...*grin*
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According to the Russian American Armory Saiga 12 page, there is a two round magazine for bird hunting (third round is in the chamber). I don't know if they get imported though.
 
I have one of the 2-round mags just in case I decide to go bird hunting. They are hard to find. You can also plug a 5-rounder. A member on the S-12 forums makes a steel wire insert to limit the capacity to 2 rounds.
 
I must admit, this does look like one awesome home defense weapon. My questions are: How does one carry around spare mags? This seems to be the awkward area of concern. I also noted that the magazine loading (kind of a rocking motion) is a bit slow and cumbersome in the insertion/reloading phase. "Major concern here" I've seen this on every video by every person reloading these to date. Is this normal or does this get better with practice? These are not much good when firing from the prone due to the extended magazine as well. Also, where could I purchase a basic, semi-auto version of this?
 
I sell them.

For a video of how to reload one quickly, go to Youtube, search for FBMG, and watch our machine gun shoot video. Approx 5 minutes in I do a Saiga reload.

I need to make a Saiga only video. I've been meaning to do that, but haven't had the time.

Prone is like shooting an AK. Most of the people I've heard talk about that can't get that low anyway, and the magazine turns into a monopod.

COM makes a kydex mag pouch that is slick. Vietnam era M16 pouches will hold two Saiga 5 rounders sideways about perfectly. I use a chestrig set up for AK 45 rd mags that holds my 8s.
 
Tromix's Saigas are awesome.... too bad we can't convert them to full-auto
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So we find you lying on your back at the end of a 12 foot skid mark in the dirt, shoulder dislocated and a mile wide grin on your face...
 
Listening to some people talk about magazines and the prone position you'd think people do all their fighting laying down. "Retreat! Retreat! They're laying right at us!" :neener:

Regardless, if you need to get really low with an AK, Saiga 12 or anything else with a long magazine there's a very simple, straightforward trick: lay the weapon on its side, directly on the ground, ejection port facing up. Aim by instinct or use a convenient projection on the reciever, gas block, front sight base or whatever as and aid. It isn't very good for long range precision shooting but it isn't that hard at closer ranges. I only really see this as being useful for shooting under an obstacle like a fallen log, parked car or similar. If you're trying to make a precise shot from 1,000 yards from a low prone, don't use an AK or a shotgun.
 
Um...I think not. I for one, can...and do, fire from the prone...major part of my second floor home defense strategy. TA-50 is the only practical way to carry those cumbersome magazines? I do not see myself putting on web gear in the middle of the night while responding to that "noise" downstairs. One thing I learned in the military about magazine fed weapons...do not rest the weapon on the magazine while firing. This is a sure way for malfunctions. Methinks I will stick to my Mossy 590. The Saiga does look cool...and I think it would be an efficient way to clear out an alley way. I could have used it during MOUT training as well...yeah, I can see a use for the weapon besides it and me looking hooah.
 
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