Saw my first open carry yesterday

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

They looked really strange. It shouldn't be allowed

AR 15s and AK 47s look weird too, they should be banned.

But please do it when I am not around, so I wont openly laugh at you.

It's a handgun, not underwear. You must laugh at hunters and Police Officers all the time then.

I'm going to be open carrying more this summer.

But it isn't going to be a handgun (at least as a primary OC) my AR-15 or the Mossberg 500E (it's good to switch up from time to time)

Really hot days will see the lighter pumpgun cooler days the AR-15 (which I am going to lighten up by making it into a midlength carbine)

I see that as going too far with Open Carry and that will scare and worry people.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Sam Cade: Uniformed officers carry openly, always. Why? There are good reasons for it, so let's list them.

First and foremost, it is known that they are armed. What would be a good reason for concealment?

Of course, the size of the service weapon and the number of other devices carried mitigate against concealment, also.

The primary reason for concealment for the plain-clothes officer and for the civilian is to obfuscate the fact that they are carrying.

 

[Buck Kramer]

Quote:
I'm going to be open carrying more this summer.

But it isn't going to be a handgun (at least as a primary OC) my AR-15 or the Mossberg 500E (it's good to switch up from time to time)

Really hot days will see the lighter pumpgun cooler days the AR-15 (which I am going to lighten up by making it into a midlength carbine)

I understand your handgun is a tool to get to your long gun, but I would like to know how many people have had to do that while raking their yard.

 

[Sam1911]

I understand your handgun is a tool to get to your long gun,

This is a very over-used and actually inappropriate concept, to a citizen self-defender, in almost all likely scenarios.

To the military, where a soldier is engaged in protracted firefights and engaged in defending a position against an attacking force, this is absolutely true.

To a citizen going about thier business, possibly being mugged or even home-invaded, this is an incompatible notion. Extremely few self-defense shootings last more than a few seconds or involve more than a handful of shots. Certainly engaging in a fighting retreat to another location where you may charge and bring to bear a rifle or shotgun is an exciting notion, but an unrealistic model of how a self-defense engagement will happen except in the most unusual, extreme, and very specific circumstances.

 

[pockets]

OC - "AR-15 or the Mossberg 500E"

"I understand your handgun is a tool to get to your long gun, but I would like to know how many people have had to do that while raking their yard."

Not me.
I keep my 'You kids get off my lawn' AR and shotgun in saddle scabbards on either side of my lawn mower.
Between those and the claymores, I can fight my way to the howitzer in my lawn shed.

.

 

[Buck Kramer]

This is a very over-used and actually inappropriate concept, to a citizen self-defender, in almost all likely scenarios. To the military, where a soldier is engaged in protracted firefights and engaged in defending a position against an attacking force, this is absolutely true.

To a citizen going about thier business, possibly being mugged or even home-invaded, this is an incompatible notion.

That's exactly what I'm saying, try to understand the sarcasm in the second half of that sentence.

Not me.
I keep my 'You kids get off my lawn' AR and shotgun in saddle scabbards on either side of my lawn mower.
Between those and the claymores, I can fight my way to the howitzer in my lawn shed.

If I can get to my toolshed I have a direct line to the airforce so I can level the place.

 

[Sam1911]

That's exactly what I'm saying, try to understand the sarcasm in the second half of that sentence.

Understood.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So, in other words, it's perfectly fine for a police officer to call Joe Citizen an idiot for carrying a gun in they way he has decided is most effective at preventing a crime from happening to him, but you take exception when the mirror is held up in front of that officer?

How is that a reasonable response to "I'm a cop too and when I carry off-duty, which is nearly 100% of the time, it's concealed. ...I'm not here to make judgement calls on anyone, so if they choose to open carry that's fine, I just think it's not the best plan. I'd rather a bad guy not know I'm armed, so that I may have the upper hand."?

Kleanbore, you are not understanding what I was replying to.

It started with this:

I was at work and went into a gas station to get a drink where some other cops where and a guy on a motorcyle was open carrying.

The cops said, "What an idiot."

The cops called the person open carrying an idiot. A response posted was:

You should have agreed with 'em.

Then pointed at their pistols.

That "only ones" stuff annoys the heck out of me.

Which I take to mean why did the cops call the guy on the motorcycle an idiot for carrying a gun exactly the same way and for likely exactly the same reason the cops were.

Followed by this response:

Did you think about what you just said there before you posted it?

I'm a cop too and when I carry off-duty, which is nearly 100% of the time, it's concealed.

I'm not here to make judgement calls on anyone, so if they choose to open carry that's fine, I just think it's not the best plan. I'd rather a bad guy not know I'm armed, so that I may have the upper hand.

Of course Sam Cade thought about what he posted before he posted it. The cops called the motorcyclist an idiot for carrying a gun exactly the same way the cops were and likely for the same reasons. Therefore, it would stand to reason that the cops were equally idiots for carrying their guns. Put the motorcylist and the cop side by side. The only difference is one is wearing a uniform and a badge and the other isn't. But they are both openly carrying a firearm for two reasons: 1. To deter a person from attacking them due to the visible show of the ability for reactive force and 2. To use for self protection should the need arise. That makes the cop on equal ground with the motorcyclist, whom the cop just called an idiot.

Hence, my reply,

So, in other words, it's perfectly fine for a police officer to call Joe Citizen an idiot for carrying a gun in they way he has decided is most effective at preventing a crime from happening to him, but you take exception when the mirror is held up in front of that officer?

The discussion had nothing to do with open carry v. concealed carry. The entire discussion was about the cop calling the motorcyclist an idiot for carry a gun exactly the same way and likely for exactly the same reason the cop himself was carrying a gun. The discussion was about how "elite" the cop felt that he was better than the motorcyclist.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I dont think its fear on our part (there does seem to be fear amoungst the general populace though, and these days for obvious reasons), but to me its just common sense, and nothing to do with fear.

If you want to open carry, no ones telling you not to, it is your choice if its permitted where you live, and its what you want to do. Personally, I just dont see anything to be gained from it. The less they know, the more ahead of the curve I am.

Let me ask this question, AK103K. You are a criminal. You are looking for a target to rob and get away with the robbery without being caught or getting shot.

Along comes Joe Citizen who is visibly carrying a gun. What percentage of the Joe Citizen population visibly carries a gun? 1/2 of 1%? 1/10 of 1%? So, given your goal of committing an easy robbery with little chance of getting caught or getting shot, why would you attack Joe Citizen walking by who has the visible means to start a gunfight, increasing GREATLY your chance of both getting caught and/or getting shot? Why would you not just let Joe Citizen with the gun walk on by, wait around around two minutes for Jane Citizen to come along who is not visibly carrying a gun? Why pick out the 1/10th of 1% of targets that have the known capability to kill you when the remaining 99.9% of targets available aren't showing that ability?

That is common sense. Why would I not take advantage of the fact that the vast majority of criminals have no desire to get caught or get shot at and cause them to just leave me alone because I can demonstrate the ability to kill them if they choose to attack? If they want a gun, first they probably want one because they don't have one, second would it not be much easier to steal money from an unarmed person and buy a gun or steal an unattended gun than it would be to attempt to take a gun by force from a person who already has enough cahones to carry it openly?

Criminals aren't stupid, they are capable of making intelligent decisions. Career criminals do not become career criminals by making stupid mistakes. The become career criminals by taking precautions to not get shot and not get caught during their careers. Attack the 1 guy out of 1000 that has the capability to kill them and increase their chance of getting caught by starting a gunfigt does nothing to enhance their career goals.

The less they know, the more ahead of the curve I am.

How does concealing your gun place you more ahead of the curve than the criminal? The only time you can use your gun is when you have already fallen behind the curve and the criminal has already gained the upper hand over you and you must use your gun to conteract that and attempt to regain control over a situation that you have already lost control over.

Sure, you have the defensive upper hand over your non-armed target counterparts. But carrying concealed, you must wait to use your gun in defense of an attack that has already been launched by the criminal. I can use my gun as a visible sign that says, "Just move on, pal....it's not worth your effort to stop here." That may not stop all criminals. But if it stops just one, then I have stopped one more criminal from attacking me than carrying concealed would.

 

[sigpro]

The cops said, "What an idiot."

First of all, a Cop referring to a member of the Public as an Idiot is very unprofessional. Especially in an environment where people will overhear him.

However, I think the statement :

The entire discussion was about the cop calling the motorcyclist an idiot for carry a gun exactly the same way and likely for exactly the same reason the cop himself was carrying a gun.

Is a over generalization. Cops carry guns not only to protect themselves, but to protect others as well. Also, LEO's are regularly put into situation where the chances for chance violence are much higher than those experienced by most non-LEO's. Your average armed Citizen is not going to be called to a domestic disturbance, tasked with apprehending a violent felon, or stopping cars in the middle of the night. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Also, I don't know a lot Cops who consider themselves to be "Elite", and if they do, it has nothing to do with OC.

 

[JustinJ]

Along comes Joe Citizen who is visibly carrying a gun. What percentage of the Joe Citizen population visibly carries a gun? 1/2 of 1%? 1/10 of 1%? So, given your goal of committing an easy robbery with little chance of getting caught or getting shot, why would you attack Joe Citizen walking by who has the visible means to start a gunfight, increasing GREATLY your chance of both getting caught and/or getting shot? Why would you not just let Joe Citizen with the gun walk on by, wait around around two minutes for Jane Citizen to come along who is not visibly carrying a gun? Why pick out the 1/10th of 1% of targets that have the known capability to kill you when the remaining 99.9% of targets available aren't showing that ability?

Just to play devil's advocate, what if you are in a grocery store standing in line, gun open on hip, when in comes a pair of armed robbers with ski masks and shotguns at the ready? In said situation, which does commonly occur, they don't wait to see if anybody is openly carrying. That gun on your hip may lead them to shoot you since you are an obvious theat before you can even start to draw. There are millions of potential scenarios but i see having a concealed firearm over an open firearm as the greater advantage in the majority of them.

 

[sigpro]

If John McClane open carried "Die Hard" would have been a 20 minute movie, and we would awaiting the release of "Die Hard 5" I think it's going to be called "Die Already!"

Seriously, I think JUSTINJ summed it up pretty well.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Just to play devil's advocate, what if you are in a grocery store standing in line, gun open on hip, when in comes a pair of armed robbers with ski masks and shotguns at the ready? In said situation, which does commonly occur, they don't wait to see if anybody is openly carrying. That gun on your hip may lead them to shoot you since you are an obvious theat before you can even start to draw. There are millions of potential scenarios but i see having a concealed firearm over an open firearm as the greater advantage in the majority of them.

Then you will be able to provide examples to us of where that has actually happened in real life?

I will lead:

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/...mond-va-golden-market-shooting/#axzz1pmgCJ6h5

Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really important. Luck doesn’t hurt, either.

Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically – you’ll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed store owner.

Not my words above, that was the President of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. A single or group of armed men busting into a business to rob the place, waving guns and yelling for everyone to get down are not going to take the time to examine every person to see what they might or might not be carrying on their belt. It takes less movement to draw and fire a gun from an open holster than to draw one from concealment, and it's pretty easy to 90% conceal an openly carried handgun by holding your elbow against it.

 

[Sam Cade]

Just to play devil's advocate, what if you are in a grocery store standing in line next to a police officer with his gun on hip, when in comes a pair of armed robbers with ski masks and shotguns at the ready?

There are millions of potential scenarios but I see having an openly carried firearm over an concealed one as being the greater advantage in the majority of them.

Victims are chosen on the basis of apparent weakness and low risk to the offender.
How often do you hear of a uniformed officer being mugged or a police station getting robbed?

 

[NavyLCDR]

I don't particularly care if anyone open carries or carries concealed. I just think it is unwise to not acknowledge the benefits of both.... and to make blanket judgements about which method is better for everyone in all situations. When a theory is presented, such as the "you'll be shot first theory" I think it is important to figure out if it has actually happened in real life or not and the commonality of that occurence.

 

[NavyLCDR]

There are millions of potential scenarios but I see having an openly carried firearm over an concealed one as being the greater advantage in the majority of them.

Victims are chosen on the basis of apparent weakness and low risk to the offender.
How often do you hear of a uniformed officer being mugged or a police station getting robbed?

However, there ARE poice officers whose guns are taken from them and they are shot with their own guns. Of course, those occur when the criminal is seeking to escape arrest, which is not applicable to Joe Ordinary Citizen in normal life, unless you are the type of Joe Ordinary Citizen that has a fetish for making citizen's arrests.

 

[OurSafeHome.net]

The uniform, fake badge, cuffs, belt, and weapon did what is was supposed to. Along with the military bearing look, it got the job done. All a big bluff.

It did impress the kids, and uniform loving women.

The main reason why 'women love a man in uniform': It means he has a job.

 

[Sam Cade]

However, there ARE poice officers whose guns are taken from them and they are shot with their own guns. Of course, those occur when the criminal is seeking to escape arrest, which is not applicable to Joe Ordinary Citizen in normal life, unless you are the type of Joe Ordinary Citizen that has a fetish for making citizen's arrests.

lol...

I suddenly hear Gomer Pyle in my head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9efgLHgsBmM

 

[tomrkba]

I dont mind open carry. In fact, I applaud those who endeavor to champion the cause.

But what I do mind is when I see a knucklehead wearing a sub-standard holster that has ZERO weapon retention features with the pistol half falling out of it...or the opposite, a non-LEO, non-operator knucklehead wearing a drop-leg (tactical) holster who has yet to shoot the H&K Mk23 strapped inside it. If you choose to open carry, do it properly. Use an APPROPRIATE and QUALITY holster

What gets me is Safariland ALS holsters are available at opticsplanet.net for $29-$50. Wait for a sale and you can get it for around $35 shipped.

However, there ARE poice officers whose guns are taken from them and they are shot with their own guns. Of course, those occur when the criminal is seeking to escape arrest, which is not applicable to Joe Ordinary Citizen in normal life, unless you are the type of Joe Ordinary Citizen that has a fetish for making citizen's arrests.

SouthNarc's ECQC (Craig Douglas, shivworks.com) course helps take care of this problem. It was the single best self-defense course I have ever attended. He spends quite a bit of time on pre-attack indicators, awareness and combatives.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Last week, I was at a Meijer store (like Wal-Mart) in Michigan with my Brother-in-Law. He was open-carrying and I was concealing. A very angry woman walked up to my BIL and said, "How do you get away with having that in here?!?!" (very huffy-puffy. lol)... He just stared at her for a few seconds, smiled, and said, "Because I can. It's legal." She replied accusingly, "In Michigan?!?!" HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Then I said, not only that, but you can conceal, too. I pulled back my jacket exposing my piece. She was very appalled and stormed away. LOL

In retrospect, I would have liked to handle it a little differently. There's nothing positive (besides guilty satisfaction) to come from making someone even more angry on the matter.

 

[Mr. Farknocker]

Imagining my seeing an OC triggers memories of Gun Smoke for some strange reason.

 

[Brockak47]

I see it all the time here in AZ. Doesn't really phase me

 

[MyGreenGuns]

The first time I saw open carry was shortly after I bought my first handgun.

It was just some guy at the gas station, but I asked him a ton of questions from across the pump.

He seemed more weirded out than I did over the event. Sorry guy, I was just curious.

I've open carried my own gun a few times. It is legal here.

Most recently was when I realized I had left my wallet at home. I have my carry permit in the wallet, I had a gun on my hip.

Simple fix, uncover the weapon. Now its legal again.

 

[mortablunt]

I.M.O. O.C. is a double edged sword; it does, in fact, raise the public consciousness to the legality of carrying a gun openly. On the other hand, I believe it makes the carrier a "shoot me first" consideration for the nefarious bad guys.

I like that OC can help normalize guns to the public. However, I think that the visible gun raises the level of deterrent. Out of sight for a crook means out of mind. Having a visible weapon adds a very obvious and real reason why they shouldn't try to rob this particular place. The whole shoot the carrier first thing happens very rarely. Most crimes happen with a sudden commencement and going directly to the objective instead of searching for gun carriers. OC has a very nice speed advantage with it as well because you aren't digging through clothes for a weapon. OC is about even with CC in terms of benefits. Anonymity at the price of not looking like a bad target versus visibility at the risk a few hotheads noticing.

I'm going to be open carrying more this summer.

But it isn't going to be a handgun (at least as a primary OC) my AR-15 or the Mossberg 500E (it's good to switch up from time to time)

Really hot days will see the lighter pumpgun cooler days the AR-15 (which I am going to lighten up by making it into a midlength carbine)

For even more epic points, wear a BDU and speak only in Gecko 45 quotes.
I kid- do it and don't let anyone stop you. Be sure to tell us how it goes and post pictures. Plz *begging*

 

[AK103K]

Along comes Joe Citizen who is visibly carrying a gun. What percentage of the Joe Citizen population visibly carries a gun? 1/2 of 1%? 1/10 of 1%? So, given your goal of committing an easy robbery with little chance of getting caught or getting shot, why would you attack Joe Citizen walking by who has the visible means to start a gunfight, increasing GREATLY your chance of both getting caught and/or getting shot? Why would you not just let Joe Citizen with the gun walk on by, wait around around two minutes for Jane Citizen to come along who is not visibly carrying a gun? Why pick out the 1/10th of 1% of targets that have the known capability to kill you when the remaining 99.9% of targets available aren't showing that ability?

In your scenario, youre making an assumption the bad guy gives a rats ass.

Maybe hes drunk and/or drugged up, and just being an ass, or is he thinks your the ass for wearing your gun like that and wants you to know about it?

Maybe hes annoyed that your showing off your gun, and hes not at all impressed with you and your fancy shooter, and hes going to see just how bad you really are.

We can go on forever with silly little scenarios, but the truth is, it is what it is, and you can never know for sure whats coming until its there. Reality is often surrealistic, and nothing near what you think reality is.

How does concealing your gun place you more ahead of the curve than the criminal? The only time you can use your gun is when you have already fallen behind the curve and the criminal has already gained the upper hand over you and you must use your gun to conteract that and attempt to regain control over a situation that you have already lost control over.

How do you figure that youre behind the curve and lost control because your gun is out of sight? Just because my gun is out of sight doesnt mean Im not paying attention. By having it out of sight, I choose when its presence is to be known, and not telegraph it to the world.

But carrying concealed, you must wait to use your gun in defense of an attack that has already been launched by the criminal. I can use my gun as a visible sign that says, "Just move on, pal....it's not worth your effort to stop here." That may not stop all criminals. But if it stops just one, then I have stopped one more criminal from attacking me than carrying concealed would.

Again, how are you coming up with this? I can keep the gun covered until the last second, or I can draw it and have it ready, if I feel the need. Id prefer to have the choice.

Youre making the assumption that people are afraid of your gun, which I see very much as wishful thinking. Youre not a tough guy just because you have a gun on your belt, and if you think its going to scare bad guys away, I think you might want to rethink that. If you think it gives you an edge, thats great. I truly hope that works as well for you, as I find keeping it covered does for me.