Scout Rifle = Silly Nostalgia?

[Dot_mdb]

Ok, I'm only working from what I have read about the concept. But I don't understand it. Do you think any "scout" alone or in a small party would actually voluntarily carry an old fashioned BOLT action rifle in a high risk combat situation?

Not only that, but light weight is spoken about as being so very important and yet the .223 is not considered worthy and the heavy to carry calibers are. So the scout has a rifle pared down to the last ounce and then has to carry extra pounds of ammo. Does that make sense?

Forward mounted scope? Any perceived advantages are balanced by the disadvantages of the optics being farther away from the shooter's eye.

The whole concept seems to me to be an excuse to bring back an obsolete combat weapon.

I think a "scout" would be better armed with an AR.

Bill

 

[Nightcrawler]

Who said the "scout rifle" was a combat weapon? It's intended to be a general purpose rifle. .223 is inadequate for such a rifle because it can't reliably take larger game. The scout rifle concept is meant to be a "do-all", jack of all trades rifle. I don't believe Jeff Cooper ever advocated issuing it as a service weapon.

Again, it depends on the mission. Not every mission involves spraying hundreds of rounds of .223 from your M16...er, excuse me, AR-15. If your intention is, say, sniping, you're going to want to take one or two shots then get the hell out of dodge before enemy artillery and machine guns figure out where you are.

That notwithstanding, the scout rifle, as conceived by Jeff Cooper, wasn't intended to be a service arm.

 

[Kaylee]

Who said the "scout rifle" was a combat weapon?

Now that I think about it.. that is an interesting point, given that Cooper pretty much out and out says its lineage is from McBride's comments on that ol' German "almost a sporter" Mauser he picked up. I wonder if c. 1919 or so the concept would have made a good issue rifle, perhaps without the glass. I'm thinking maybe so...

For that matter... now that I think about it.. what is a "scout" anymore? I mean, I know sniper teams wander around up front, as do forward observer types? And aren't they normally in teams anyways? Hrmm... hadn't ever thought about it that way.

-K

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

the scout rifle is certainly a somewhat useable combat weapon, since it's accurate enough to hit things at whatever range you are, and is powerful enough to strike a decisive blow.


While it is intended to be used as a fighting arm (and any other purpose a rifle can be put to), it's not specifically intended as an issue weapon for an army.

 

[Art Eatman]

Granted that most of today's military scouting is done from the air...Still, weather rules. The concept is probably more useful for irregulars than somebody from a Regular Army unit, nowadays.

Regardless, since a scout tries to find the enemy without engaging, and might possibly live off the land while so doing, the concept seems sensible to me.

Might well be the ideal tool for the SHTFers among us.

Art

 

[Kaylee]

Regardless, since a scout tries to find the enemy without engaging, and might possibly live off the land while so doing, the concept seems sensible to me.

Might well be the ideal tool for the SHTFers among us.

Hey... maybe Cooper can call it the SFTF rifle instead. Do that and paint the stock black, I bet Steyr's sales will double!

Gotta wonder though.. if our hypothetical scout is out acting alone in a warzone, what's he doing taking down big critters? I doubt he'll have the time to dress, jerk/smoke, and haul all the meat, and if he's on his lonesome surely the more plentiful li'l critters will make more convenient foraging?

oh well.. the light weight and longer range make sense though.

-K

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Forward mounted scope? Any perceived advantages are balanced by the disadvantages of the optics being farther away from the shooter's eye.

I really like the forward mounted scout scope on my rifle. The forward position allows me to use both eyes at the same time. I can see through the scope to aim the rifle, and yet still see around the scope to view the entire landscape. I really like that.

It also is the quickest sighting system I've ever used. Whenever I shoulder my rifle with the new scout scope, I immediately find that I'm right on target. It used to take me a moment to re-orient myself to the higher maginification view, and then to re-find my target. Perhaps I simply needed more training, but for me the scout scope was the most expedient solution to getting 'lost' in the scope. It's also faster than iron sights, in that no time is lost ensuring that the sights are properly aligned.

Disadvantages? Sure.
The forward mounting trades away some field of view through the scope. But then again, it gains field of view around the scope, so that point is moot.
I've heard that glare off the back of the scope can be a problem when the sun is low on the horizon and directly behind the shooter. I've never experienced this personally.
Scout scope mounts are expensive and require special gunsmithing.
The relatively low magnification doesn't allow for varmint or target grade accuracy. In a field gun this is irrelevant.

Perhaps a no-magnification, 1x scope would work just as well. For me, though, the scout scope is the perfect solution.

-John

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Perhaps I should also add that the scout scope combined with the lightweight, handy rifle provide the ideal platform for quickly placing an accurate first shot.

I don't know exaclty what a 'scout' is or what he does, but it may well be that he needs the ability to score a quick first hit. If so, Cooper's Scout Rifle is a far better tool than say an AR-15 or your average hunting rifle.

 

[BigG]

The scout they were probably thinking about when they dubbed the concept was more like Hawkeye of Last of the Mohicans than a member of Seal Team Six.

Don't knock em if you haven't tried em. The guns work, I have one and I am an Colt AR15 type through and through. The long eye relief scope allows you to mount the gun like a shotgun and fire immediately as the target is right there before your eyes as the butt settles into your shoulder. The Steyr has a lot of good features that you can research by using the search page, but it is a good all purpose rifle, imho.

 

[Al Thompson]

BigG and I seem to have had the same initial impression - not much of a rifle, too heavy for a pistol.

I was wrong. I have one - purchased it (not a Styer) on noting that several folks who's opinions I value liked theirs. The concept works very well.

My only gripe is that dim light shooting is tough with the forward mounted scope. One guy I know has a 6 x 42 Leupold on his for morning/evening hunts and his Scout scope for the rest of the time.

My .30-06 isn't retired and my AR still gets shot. But the scout is high on my list of grab and go gear.

 

[BigG]

Yeah, Al, we had to eat crow on that one. What can I say? It is a nice package and worth the big bucks, imho. Another thing about the forard scope; it allows you to carry the rifle in one hand at the natural balance point, unlike a typical scope that destroys the balance and makes a rifle awkward. Steyr has a good trigger outa the box, also.

I'm sure other guns can be modified into a similar handy configuration but it would cost you quite a few bucks to get it as handy as the Steyr. JMHO.

 

[Art Eatman]

Aw, Kaylee, you can bust Bambi, cut out the backstraps and be gone in maybe three minutes. Ten miles later you can figure out Step 2.

Maybeso the essence of the Scout is the rapidity of getting a hit with the first shot, as far as priorities. Hard to out-quick the shotgun shooting style.

My problem, of course, is that I've had over 50 years of using a conventionally mounted scope. I'd need some serious retraining to really become comfortable and reflexive with the forward mounting.

Art

 

[Kestrel]

Why, in Vietnam, our scouts often just carried a single-shot, break open .22LR rifle. Sometimes he would carry just a pump-up pellet gun... If the mission was really dangerous, he would pump it up all the way 10 times...

just kidding...

Steve

 

[keederdag]

I have never understood the forward mounted scope concept. Ive tried it and do not see the benifits over a standard setup. This baffles me? Other than that, I like the rifles. But If I was a forward observer/recon in combat, I would go with something I could keep heads down with while I hauled @ss outa there. The idea is not to be seen, if you are, you better lay down some seriouse cover and move. Gimi an auto with loads of ammo; no complaints on a well maintained M-16 A1. .223 and full auto sounds about perfect. You can carry plenty of ammo and the gun is light weight (A-1) A foreward assist would be nice though. As far as killing power, that has nothing to do with the job described. Leave it to the actual combat troops. Besides you can call in for air support.....Hopefully

 

[hillbilly]

I vividly recall someone posting a photo taken of US Special Forces guys in the Philippines, training Filipino troops to fight Abu Sayef Islamic guerillas.

The US Special Forces all had long-eye-relief "scout scopes" on their M-16s.

The Scout Scope makes for very rapid target aquisition.

hillbilly

 

[Keith]

I have never understood the forward mounted scope concept. Ive tried it and do not see the benifits over a standard setup.

Then you haven't tried it in a real-life situation! If you want to go to the range and shoot tiny bragging groups on paper, or shoot at game in a fairly controlled situation, then get a standard high magnification scope and don't worry about it!

The thing that a Scout Scope does is let you get a FAST shot off, perhaps on a moving target at close range - and still have a precise aiming point and SOME magnification for a long range shot. You probably can't shoot a MOA group at 300 yards, but you can hit a man in the head (or a deer through the ribs) at that range. And that's all you need in the real world.

The other advantage is that magazine isn't hidden under the scope. You can top it off, or clear a malf or whatever without digging around blindly.

High magnification is a DISADVANTAGE in most hunting situations - and all dfensive situations. You don't need that magnification to hit a target at any range you should be shooting. And it blinds you (or at least severaly limits your field of view) at close range.

Keith

 

[444]

I personally like the concept of the scout rifle. If you really think about it's purpose from a realistic point of view, it makes a lot of sense although I honestly can't say that it would be better than something else. As Nightcrawler said, it is a general purpose rifle. It is supposed to be the rifle for the man that only owns one rifle. Obviously, if you only have one rifle, there are certain compromises that you are going to have to live with. The caliber is a general purpose caliber; it is going to be heavy for small game and light for extremly big or dangerous game, but it is very versitile. It is a good accurate rifle, but probably wouldn't give a serious varmint rig any sleepless nights. The sighting system is quick and instinctive and is plenty good enough for realistic shots. If you regularly place accurate shots at ranges in excess of 500 yards, this rifle might not be the ticket, but then again, a rifle designed for extremly long range might not be the ticket for close quarters/heavy brush shooting either. The rifle certainly wouldn't be your best choice for a combat weapon, but it would work as such. It is a jack of all trades, master of none type of thing.

"For that matter... now that I think about it.. what is a "scout" anymore? "
I was a 19D Cavalry Scout in the military. Here is a description from goarmy.com: http://www.goarmy.com/jobs/mos/mos19D.htm

 

[CWL]

I'd like to remind everyone of an old military maxim:

"a good scout is a dead scout"

This means that your scout has done his duty by setting off the ambush/located the enemy. Sacrifice of one has saved the many. The rest of the troops may now deploy in response to the threat.

Who ever said that a scout needed to shoot back?

With that said, our current Marine Scout/snipers are forward deployed with bolties. Their mission is to locate enemy first, strike high-value targets second and never engage in direct firefights.

However, I do believe that Cooper's Scout rifle concept was more geared for an outdoorsman than as a military weapon.

 

[keederdag]

Keith: I've never had a problem getting fast hit's in a real world situation. I do have some foreward mounted non magnifing scopes, that I hunt with and they work fine. But better......NO. Personal preferance maybe!
Explain How this scout set up can be faster? As far as hiding the mag, I would not use a bolt gun to shoot people as I stated, in a scout situation, so this matters not.... to me! Shooting game, I tend to shoot and load too fast, I dont need any more help podna.

Cooper is an iron sight fan; he is woefully ignorant in the area of optics value. He say's the only bene. is that you have a single focal plain. THis is BS. How about light gathering value, magnification=target clairity, recticle range finders. The man did not even know if a muzzle brake would work. He is no Rifle GOD. Pistols.....Maybe

 

[keederdag]

I think most foreward mounted scopes in military use are acctually sights; They have little or no magnification. This is different. A scout rifle by col. Coopers def. should be bolt action and use a low magnification scope. He never mentions advanced combat sights.

 

[Keith]

I've never had a problem getting fast hit's in a real world situation.

Then you must have a low magnification scope. If you "step on" a deer in alder thicket - or somebody jumps up 20 feet away and starts shooting - how do you find them in a scope?

I would not use a bolt gun to shoot people as I stated, in a scout situation, so this matters not.... to me

Well, refer back to my original post. If you just want a hunting rifle for fairly standard situations, you don't need a Scout.

Cooper is an iron sight fan; he is woefully ignorant in the area of optics value. He say's the only bene. is that you have a single focal plain. THis is BS. How about light gathering value, magnification=target clairity, recticle range finders.

You don't need your target magnified or "clarified" to shoot it, nor do you need a range finder to take any shot you should take at game, or human beings for that matter.

Cooper is merely pointing out the DISADVANTAGES inherent in scopes when they are used in situations other than the standard sporting/sniper usage. That high magnification (and narrow field of view) becomes a problem in a close range situation, etc.
And this isn't something Cooper invented - it's been recognized since scout/snipers started being employed in WWI. That's why they always have a partner with a conventional rifle to protect them.

And if you take a look back at some of the WWII German sniper rifles, you'll find they have a long eye relief scope mounted on a Mauser Karabiner (carbine) 98K, and for the same reason! Gee, sounds like a "Scout"!

Keith

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Hard to think I was silly to spend all that money

As others have observed folks often knock the idea, and the author but seldom the experience.

Personally I bought one in .308 on a lark and as a conversation piece to see what the fuss was about (I've sometimes found wearing things like really neat Filson style loden green wool and having an interesting gun gets me quicker and more lasting access to land for hunting anyway) figuring I wouldn't get hurt swapping it off again and promptly followed up with a pseudo in .376. Sad to think I can't blame a gunwriter for my evident foolishness in buying the second rifle.

I even know people who liked to have a .308 - granted it wasn't bolt action but a bolt action would have done and been easier to carry - around more for big furry four legged animals like buffalo no matter how good bad or indifferent the 5.56 was for people.

I've acknowledged some of the relative weaknesses elsewhere and I make no claim the true Scout rifle is a master of all trades, but no one does. I do say that I am immensely pleased with mine. To attack the Scout concept for falling short of the perfect rifle is indeed silly.

 

[keederdag]

#1Keith; Ive hunted in alders, mesquite thickets ect. Wild boar, deer, elk and moose. I turn my scope down to low 2.5X or 3X duh!
And I usually keep it on 4X, for fast shot's. I rarely get standing 200 yard shot's; maybe I'm just not that good of a hunter, but I do usualy fill my tag.

#2 What the heck are you talking about; I said I would not want to use a bolt gun for military scout/recon type aplications. Your responce didnt even make sense to me pard.

#3 Cooper is an Iron sight fan, read his book dude. He doesnt "point Out" any of the stuff you mention. He recomends optics only in respect to the single focal plain. Ive spoken with him several times at Friends of the NRA banquets and other NRA functions, he's not all that sharp in the rifle area's.
And who the heck said he invented LER scopes?

#4 Again, since you want to argue: Explain to me How a foreward mounted scope (not a sight) "is Faster". If you have info I dont, enlighten me

 

[444]

"he's not all that sharp in the rifle area's"

 

[BigG]

Keederdag: When you throw the Steyr with the LER scope up to your shoulder you are looking at a 2.5X picture of whatever the gun is pointed at. Mine fits me so well it is just about on target when I throw it up, like a well fitting shotgun. After that, it's just click, cause it's already pointed.