Questioning the Scout Rifle concept.

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These guys seem to be the most ardent keepers of the flame. Much info over there.

http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=15bm54tv4b6jkua7plfpdi13k2&board=15.0

According to scoutrifle.org, the scout rifle definition the was formed under the auspices of Jeff Cooper is actually quite flexible. Here are the guidelines:

Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Nominal barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary. Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope, also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm). Calibers such as 7 mm - 08 Remington (7 x 51 mm) or .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).
 
Anyone who is really interested in the scout rifle concept should visit www.scoutriflestudy.com, Richard Mann's magnum opus on the scout rifle and its development. You will be required to sign up and log in to read the bulk of the material, but it is well worth the trouble if you are a fan of the scout rifle and the concepts underlying its development and use.
 
I don't see it that way. Something either makes sense or it doesn't. I don't wonder at all why I don't have any scout rifles. They just don't make sense. If they did, I would go out and buy one tomorrow. What I do spend time wondering is why other people have scout rifles. It's like teets on a boar; you simply cannot help but wonder why.

What kind of rifles do you have and use in the field? What kind of hunting do you do, prey and favored tactics?
 
I understand the concept but, I'm not really sure of the intent behind a scout rifle outside of a military setting.
 
I understand the concept but, I'm not really sure of the intent behind a scout rifle outside of a military setting.
Hunting! All my bolt actions Ive ever bought from my first (1988 @18 yo) was purchased and or setup with most of these features in mind because they work for a hunter afoot. And I didnt even hear of Cooper or any of his writings on Scout rifles til after 2000.
 
Under the actual guidelines, the Ruger American Compact in .308 with a loop sling and a 1-4x scope over the receiver would qualify as a scout rifle if it can shoot 2 MOA. It would make a nice carrying hunting rifle.

Some of the features that people think are mandatory are really "desired but not necessary". There's probably many of us who own "scout" rifles and don't even know it.
 
For all the arguing about the scout rifle concept, if I didn't currently have an M1 Garand and Mini 14, something along the lines of a scout rifle would be my first choice these days.

I don't hunt, I don't keep an AR for home defense, I don't feel an impending doom looming over the horizon, nor do I hike with anything more than a revolver for protection. But I still like having a rifle around that could be pressed into service at distances beyond those easily afford by either handguns or shotguns, which could be used for a multitude of scenarios that are unlikely but still possible. So perhaps the scout rifle is best applied to a person who has no true need for a rifle, and does not care to own a number of them for each specific task. Saving on both ammunition and range time, whilst still being familiar with a firearm that can fill many rolls if needed.

Excellent alternative view!
 
What kind of rifles do you have and use in the field? What kind of hunting do you do, prey and favored tactics?

I typically do my hunting in the frozen foods isle like God intended. Not that I won't do some hunting and fly fishing on occasion, but it's not my bag. Mostly just an excuse to get outdoors.

Now my question for you is, How often do you run recon missions behind enemy lines? Because that's what the scout rifle was intended for. If your average hunt requires backup iron sights and stripper clip top offs then you're probably doing something wrong. Well, multiple things, actually...:uhoh:
 
If your average hunt requires backup iron sights and stripper clip top offs then you're probably doing something wrong. Well, multiple things, actually...:uhoh:

Maybe not top offs, but backup irons and a scope on QD rings is a great idea.

Like I said earlier, if you've never taken a digger down a muddy or snowy hillside while hunting, you must live somewhere flat and dry.

While optics are way more durable than they used to be, they're still the weakest part of a rifle. Accidents do happen, and if you have backup sights, you pull the sights off and hunt the rest of the trip.
 
IMO, this stripper clip idea is way off base.

From what I've seen, all of Cooper's Scout rifles and prototypes were made from commercial rifles. Which means not a one had a guide cut in the receiver for stripper clips.

What I have read about the scout rifle and the location of a forward scope was to facilitate topping off the gun one cartridge at a time while the gun was still mounted on the shoulder.

The forward mounted scope also left room for a receiver mounted sight for those that preferred apertures for rear sights over a barrel mounted leaf. I mean, if you shorten a barrel to 16, 17, 18, or 19 inches and all you have is a barrel mounted rear sight, you just killed any useful sight radius for longer shots. A receiver mounted aperture keeps that sight radius reasonable.
 
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he had stripper clip guides cut into his 600s . Strippers are kewl, much lighter an more compact than box mags. Actually 600 .308s gobble single cartridges rolled into them just fine. I've heard it said only a mag or two (10 rounds) and you better scoot in an individual combat situation. In a few minutes you will have arty and air counter fire !
 
I have some stripper clips for a USGI carbine. Never used them. What I do have is a dozen mags. The Army doesn't use stripper clips anymore because ammo isn't dropped on the side of the road. It's carried on patrol in magazines. Ever tried to fed a mag with a stripper clip in the dark? Doesn't work real well.

No, a magazine is the way to carry ammo these days if you need a fast reload. That makes stripper clips and forward mounted scopes obsolete. The scout rifle concept is still relevant though. Just move it ahead about 60 years. Some companies have already addressed this.

https://www.legacysports.com/catalog/howa/howa-scout-rifle/
 
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I find plastic and aluminum,in a hunting rifle boring,and cheap construction,leaving little open to personal expression,I much prefer walnut and blued steel,if it be heavier ,he'll, even at 65 I can handle it all day ,everyday,Mauser or Marlin,you can't argue with good design,wood and steel.last I knew magazines are refilled using stripper clips -makes for a faster load
 
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I have some stripper clips for a USGI carbine. Never used them. What I do have is a dozen mags. The Army doesn't use stripper clips anymore because ammo isn't dropped on the side of the road. It's carried on patrol in magazines. Ever tried to fed a mag with a stripper clip in the dark? Doesn't work real well.

No, a magazine is the way to carry ammo these days if you need a fast reload. That makes stripper clips and forward mounted scopes obsolete. The scout rifle concept is still relevant though. Just move it ahead about 60 years. Some companies have already addressed this.

https://www.legacysports.com/catalog/howa/howa-scout-rifle/

This is off topic, but I have seen modern infantry using stripper clips. They will carry 10 round clips in their packs and top off their mags whenever they get a chance.
 
Yes they are packed in cloth bandoleer so when your mags are empty you can hopefully take a break and reload your magazines ,or do it on the move or even in a firefight,but no stripper clips are not obsolete.
 
Folks are moving the target again in this thread...

There's a big difference between the use of stripper clips with a fixed mag, forward-optic bolt action scout rifle and their use to reload magazines...

I don't need a forward mounted optic to reload my magazine out of the rifle.

So it's quite fair to say, top loading a bolt rifle with stripper clips is obsolete - because it is.
 
To those who say the need to quickly top off your rifle Is never encountered in a hunting situations, I suspect you don't live in an area with an abundance of hogs. I can think of numerous situations where I would have liked more than the four to five rounds I had readily available at the time.
 
This is off topic, but I have seen modern infantry using stripper clips. They will carry 10 round clips in their packs and top off their mags whenever they get a chance.
Yes they are packed in cloth bandoleer so when your mags are empty you can hopefully take a break and reload your magazines ,or do it on the move or even in a firefight,but no stripper clips are not obsolete.

It's been a couple years, but I never saw anyone on patrol carrying cloth bandoliers with stripper clips.

Everyone with an M4A1 carried 7 mags/210 rounds or a little more on their person and an extra few mags in their blast bag with extra water and food. If you needed more ammo, it was flown to you, and if your unit had their stuff together it was flown to you in already loaded mags.
 
I really don't get the kerfuffle that the vaunted "Scout Rifle" concept always raises. Except that it eternally illustrates just how small are the nits which gear enthusiasts will pick and squabble over. And how the mythos of our legendary figures ossifies from "he's a guy with some strong ideas, which might be cool to try out," to "he's Moses with chiseled stone tablets full of 'thou shalt...'" verbiage. As if Elmer, O'Conner, and Skeeter, and Wiley, and the good Colonel were not interesting men of their time, working with the varied but limited experiences and opinions their lives provided, but are somehow prophets of a bygone age who's mystical knowledge can't be touched or (gasp!) improved upon by the benighted simpletons of today.

The Scout Rifle is the epitome of one man's (well, a group of his pals) idea of how to shave that last sliver off of a very mature idea to get something that might be 1% more suitable for this kind of esoteric idea he had of an idealized use case.

The ideas were pretty banal, honestly. Nothing ground shaking. Let's make it a little lighter. Cool. Let's make it a little shorter ... as carbines had been made for centuries. Nifty. Let's use this innovative sling. Fine. Let's use the most common, cheapest, roundly capable ammo... well, duh.

At the time -- and certainly throughout most of Jeff Cooper's lifetime, most bolt-action rifles had integral magazines, and even those that did have removable box mags were intended to be loaded via stripper clip. So he went with what he knew, there. Besides, a non-detachable magazine is one less thing to lose, or carry spares of.

Scopes were becoming better and more common. And for someone who shot a lot -- even an old Luddite -- it was hard to deny the advantages. But, dang...scopes get in the way of stripper clips. Ah ha! Get a pistol scope and mount it forward of the action. Hmmm....that kind of sucks, compared to a regular telescopic sight arrangement, but it's still better than just irons. And if you squint and hold your tongue just right...yeah that'll work. But let's call this "optional." Because it isn't super awesome. (And as scopes improve, and "Scout" scopes become more refined...well, it will still not be super awesome, but it's workable. Yeah... "optional.")

None of those things makes or breaks a rifle to be used in the quasi-mythical "Scout" milieu that he came up with to justify it. They're just slivers shaved off an already well-developed theme. Over time, a handful of nearly inconsequential modifications solidifies into a quest for a holy grail. ("On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place.") And like all holy grails, the more mysterious and hard to make distinct, the more furiously it will be pursued and argued over.



And the Scout? The Scout is simply a romantic notion. An epic character in the imaginations of manly men. Jeff Cooper was just as much a romantic lover of the ephemeral ideal of masculine adventure as James Fenimore Cooper, Herman Melville, Teddy Roosevelt, Hemingway, Frederick Remington, etc. How do we define a need for a rifle? You have to start by picturing the owner of this rifle. He's going to be a loner ... 'cause America!... and he's just the sort of guy who will be providing for himself, while behind enemy lines, carrying only what he needs to survive, shooting and scooting, exploring wild places, in fringed buckskin shirt, boonie hat, tall boots, and maybe a pair of those tiny little shorts the Selous scouts wore. Observing without detection, reporting on troop formations, and occasionally shooting a moose for dinner. He's probably a friend to the Indians, an inherent conservationist, a natural healer, able to rebuild an engine with a pocket knife, can swim like a fish, drives everything from Ferraris to steam locomotives to biplanes with aplomb, is uncomfortable in effete polite society, has a pet badger named Vernon who wears a bandanna. He looks suave in a tux and just slays the ladies, too.

Just as we all do. And that's why we each need a Scout rifle!
 
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The Modern 0317 still uses a modified version of the M40. All these years later. Look at the features and design of the M40A5. It has a lot of the boxes ticked. No most of us never will be qualified or close to that type of life. I thank god for that.
 
Defenders of the forward scope say it has advantages apart from leaving the top of the receiver unobstructed. That is plausible, for we see people rocking forward-mounted optics on AR-type rifles sometimes, and of course the AR receiver top is permanently obstructed. So to argue that strippers are obsolete, ergo the forward scope is pointless, will not be entirely convincing to people who want the scope way out in front--for some other reason.

The present-day factory scout rifles do not use stripper clips to top load. Debating the merits of strippers is, therefore, extraneous to actual examples. I am not sure the design decisions should have gone that way, but detachable box magazines are how you reload the things.

If you wanted a bolt action scout that loaded from strippers you would have to go to considerable trouble to get it, having a 'bespoke' rifle built on an old action that has the clip slot, or on one modified to take clips. The scout rifle concept endures, though, without the stripper clip option. It hasn't seemed important to those who make the rifles or to those who buy them.
 
Defenders of the forward scope say it has advantages apart from leaving the top of the receiver unobstructed.
Yes, sometimes they do.

That is plausible, for we see people rocking forward-mounted optics on AR-type rifles sometimes...
True, but most of those will not be magnified scopes, but simple red-dot optics. And the arguments for mounting a magnified optic forward, without an obstruction reason for doing so, tend to be pretty sketchy. It's hard to pin down exactly, precisely WHY that's supposedly a good idea, and all of the reasons I've ever read were pretty dismissable, or counterable, or pure opinion without any way to quantify them scientifically. And they all have an unsubtle whiff of the most circular reasoning ever: "Well...Jeff Cooper said..." :)

The present-day factory scout rifles do not use stripper clips to top load. Debating the merits of strippers is, therefore, extraneous to actual examples. I am not sure the design decisions should have gone that way, but detachable box magazines are how you reload the things.
The present-day factory "scout" rifles differ in LOTS of ways from the original concept. So by that logic, debating the merits of... well, I guess any of the things Cooper said becomes extraneous to actual examples! :D

From a gunsmithing or manufacturing standpoint, it is SO easy to construct EXACTLY what Cooper said he wanted. I mean, it's all practically 19th century technology. But pretty much no maker bothers to, and not that many enthusiasts have custom ones made that exactly check all the boxes. Why? Assuming that no body ever thought of slapping all these different parts together this way before 1983, how is it conceivable that 34 years later the makers who sell something with a Scout label still have more SCOUT in the name than in the product itself? Could it possibly be that there just isn't much demand for what the Colonel thought was a slam dunk design?

It's not like people don't hunt out in the wilds, all over the world, in totally varying conditions. It's not like we don't send out military scouts to help surveil the enemy's actions. Maybe everyone's just wrong.

If you wanted a bolt action scout that loaded from strippers you would have to go to considerable trouble to get it, having a 'bespoke' rifle built on an old action that has the clip slot, or on one modified to take clips. The scout rifle concept endures, though, without the stripper clip option. It hasn't seemed important to those who make the rifles or to those who buy them.
Sure enough. Though, one could say that even in the face of factory "scout" rifle examples, one still has to go to considerable lengths to actually get what he really said was right. Apparently the factories don't think it's important to make his weight desires, length recommendations...
However, the stripper clip thing, as I said, was something that WAS quite familiar and perceived as helpful throughout Cooper's training, life experiences, and even still known while he was developing the idea. Does that mean it's irrelevant now?

Well, probably, or maybe, or plausibly. But that's messing with the holy grail. Just like having a heavier rifle. A longer rifle. A rifle with a conventional scope. In some less common cartridge. A rifle with the wrong sling. A rifle without an integral bipod.... All of those things are optional. All of those things contribute to the general idea.

And yet, "the scout rifle concept endures, though..." because it HAS to be this and that, and it doesn't have to be any of those things. It's a theme, and a holy quest, and a self-image. And that's what makes it great!
 
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Defenders of the forward scope say it has advantages apart from leaving the top of the receiver unobstructed. That is plausible, for we see people rocking forward-mounted optics on AR-type rifles sometimes, and of course the AR receiver top is permanently obstructed. So to argue that strippers are obsolete, ergo the forward scope is pointless, will not be entirely convincing to people who want the scope way out in front--for some other reason.

There are several legitimate reasons to put a red dot further forward than what might be considered ideal. Primarily, you see it on A1 and A2 models, where there's really no other choice but to cantilever the optic off of the carry handle to cowitness with the sights. Otherwise you end up with extreme cheek weld issues.

More common nowadays you have cantilevered red dot mounts that throw the red dot about halfway over the edge of the receiver. This is to accommodate the magnifiers and leave room for a backup rear sight, although most people who have them just think they look neat.

A red dot is also a completely different animal than a scope. You have unlimited eye relief without making any compromises. Even then, it's way less than ideal to mount a red dot that far forward. I would almost rather have iron sights than deal with a red dot mounted like that.
 
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