Questioning the Scout Rifle concept.

[grampajack]

Actually, no, you can't - at least without modification. You keep showing your ignorance. Try attaching a Ching sling to a normally configured rifle stock and report back how that goes for you

I guess that doesn't register in my mind as a modification. At least not any more so than putting a side sling swivel on an M4.

I'm just going to come right out and say it. The only reason the scout has stayed a thing is it looks cool. I don't think anyone can really deny that. And because it does look cool, certain individuals are struggling to reach for any rationale that makes it somehow practical. They see a scout and say, "Oh wow, that is so awesome! I have got to find a reason to need one of those." And of course without the forward mounted scope, it's just another bolt action, so no one is getting rid of that.

This reminds me of an AR manufacturer that put a carbine length handguard on a mid length upper, leaving the gas tube partially exposed. They thought it looked cool, and they were trying to come up reasons why it was practical. And all they succeeded in doing was making asses out of themselves. The scout is no different. It's stupid enough to mount a red dot that far forward without a really good reason, but doing it with a scope is just assbackwards no matter how you cut it. It might look nifty, but it's just all kinds of wrong. The only possible reason you would do it is if you want to use stripper clips, but even that is putting the cart before the horse. Big time.

Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with having guns just because you like them. Some of the neatest guns ever made are the most impractical. Like the SPAS 12, for example. I would love to have one even though they suck. I wouldn't mind having a scout either. I like weird guns. But I don't delude myself into thinking they're practical, then talk down to people who disagree with me, as if they're just too dumb to comprehend the fine points of something only my great mind can understand.

 

[Llama Bob]

Simple question: have you ever actually taken a scout rifle afield even once in your life?

 

[Mosin Bubba]

I think a lot of the appeal comes from Cooper too. There's a certain allure to "one rifle for every situation, hand crafted by the master", but when you look at it, it's a bunch of outmoded design ideas (stripper clips? really?) tailored for a situation that doesn't really exist.

 

[Llama Bob]

I think a lot of the appeal comes from Cooper too. There's a certain allure to "one rifle for every situation, hand crafted by the master", but when you look at it, it's bunch of outmoded design ideas (stripper clips? really?) tailored for a situation that doesn't really exist.

Just because something's an old idea doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Stripper clips had been around for nearly a century when Cooper specified them. There's very little downside to having the receiver of a bolt action with an internal box magazine cut to use them. The metal back there doesn't do anything, it doesn't increase the length of the receiver any noticeable amount, and if anything serves as a lightning cut.

The better question is why every internal magazine bolt action isn't set up for stripper clips.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

The better question is why every internal magazine bolt action isn't set up for stripper clips.

And you don't think there's a reason why no one has used them for 70 years...

 

[Jason_W]

I'm actually not in love with the idea of a forward mounted scope, but since "scout" models are typically the only ones to have all of the other features in a rifle I want, I'm willing to make that compromise. Unless you can afford to have a custom gun built, you simply can't have everything. Are there any non-scout rifles these days that come right from factory ready to go with aperture sights? That's kind of a nice feature if you run out of money buying the gun and need save up for a decent optic.

 

[Llama Bob]

And you don't think there's a reason why no one has used them for 70 years...

I think commercial rifle manufacturers saw a manufacturing step on the Mauser design they could omit to save money and did so.

And for something that "no one" uses, an awful lot of US military ammo is shipped in stripper clips

 

[Jason_W]

Just because something's an old idea doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Stripper clips had been around for nearly a century when Cooper specified them. There's very little downside to having the receiver of a bolt action with an internal box magazine cut to use them. The metal back there doesn't do anything, it doesn't increase the length of the receiver any noticeable amount, and if anything serves as a lightning cut.

The better question is why every internal magazine bolt action isn't set up for stripper clips.

On a basic push feed hunting rifle, it's probably offers no practical advantage. The bulk of all hunting scenarios will never require a fast reload.

On models like the Ruger GSR, the cynical side of me thinks a manufacturer would go with a detachable magazine over stripper clip guides in order to get the consumer to buy expensive magazines. I've seen well practiced individuals reload via stripper clips more or less just as fast as anyone could with detachable box mags.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

I think commercial rifle manufacturers saw a manufacturing step on the Mauser design they could omit to save money and did so.

And for something that "no one" uses, an awful lot of US military ammo is shipped in stripper clips

Maybe people don't need to quick charge a rifle they will virtually never empty the magazine with. Maybe civilians don't plan to get their ammo dropped from parachutes in crates.

The point being, most of the benefits of a scout rifle are just part of being a lightweight 308, and most of the Cooper mandated stuff like the scope and stripper clips add no real benefit.

 

[Llama Bob]

The army doesn't put ammo in stripper clips to facilitate dropping it. They do it to facilitate loading magazines - the same reason it's been done for 130 years now.

Cooper specified a rifle that was suitable for fighting use as well as for hunting use. If you're 100% convinced it's impossible for you to ever meet a hostile person while out hunting then you may decide that feature's of no value to you. Personally, I don't consider it a requirement, but is it nice to have? Definitely. And if I've got it, I'll carry spare ammo in clips.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

When's the last time that someone got in a gunfight while hunting and needed to reload? It's a situation that just doesn't exist.

 

[Llama Bob]

When's the last time that someone got in a gunfight while hunting and needed to reload? It's a situation that just doesn't exist.

Yeah, nothing unpredictable EVER happens in a self defense situation. It always follows a nice neat script in which no more than 4 shots are needed!

 

[Varminterror]

Simple question: have you ever actually taken a scout rifle afield even once in your life?

Many times. Not as handy as a mountain rifle for hunting, and really no faster to the shoulder or on target.

 

[Wisco]

I just don't get the detach magazine AND stripper clips.

An internal mag with stripper clip ability would be very useful. But that requires a scout scope.

A detach mag and a spare is also useful, but less durable/sturdy. Can use a regular scope.

If I was hunting where a 308 would do it all, in one of these ever-prevalent meth/marijuana/bootlegging areas...wait, I wouldn't. I would've scouted out the area before the hunting season and I would've brought an AR with 2 mags while I walked around the woods. If I found sketchy people, I'd leave and not return.

And just how many baddies are you going to encounter where your whatever-it-is game rifle isn't enough? And they're shooting at you? Lots of them? But you've got your jeff cooper scout special and you're going to stand and deliver lots of rounds from a bolt action while being shot at? Switching mags and then topping off with stripperclips? Please.

This is all just fantasy with one-in-several-million odds of happening... fantasy situations on gun forums are the reason for most forums.

 

[kBob]

So how many angels CAN dance on the objective of a EER scope?

Come on folks give it a rest. Cooper had an idea and did something about it. None of us have to like it or not like it.

If you read Coopers works you know he did not mean hunting scout exclusively. Keep in mind that there were folks in his day, and even a few still around that believed in military scouts being very lightly armed. Scout also meant recon guy, not big game hunter exclusively. Hunting two legged game as an individual or in small groups without others available for support is not like the drive hunts folks tend to call "combat" where one crowd pushes another until it breaks and runs. Cooper, and believe it or not some folks today, seemed to think there was a place in war for a quiet individual or small group to go out amoungst them to see what they were doing. It truly helps to go light, folks. The Vietnam Experience tends to shade folks opinions, but, believe it or not, not everyone in that conflict carried 85 pounds of gear and ammo or had 24/7 air and artillery and a fifteen minute ride to a hospital on standby. Those folks that did not were Scouts, whether you called them LRPs LRRPs Rangers or whatever brand of Sneaky Peek Pete. Yes, some unit's teams carried everything but the kitchen sink, but some recognized that five to seven men can not carry enough 'chine guns, black rifles, and ammo for that number of folks to make a good dent in even a platoon of folks similarly armed. Try not to ever have to shoot. If you do shoot, shoot and scoot. To stand is to die. A light weight, fast to fire and powerful rifle for dealing with one or two targets and leaving works as well as anything else in that situation.

The "Scout Rifle" was/is sort of a Do All rifle. Each of us is going to have our own opinions as to what is best for an individual situation. But supposes you only were allowed one rifle? That one had to be able to do everything to some level of success?

I have to laugh when every year I see the guys trotting out their magnum long rifles with humungo glass on them for hunting.......in Florida. I know guys as proud as punch for having taken Bambi's Dad (some year s Bambi's Mom) at 600 yards across some baited field from a weather proof "deer stand" hut with shooting bench and sand bags. If one actually hunts Deer, bear or pigs rather than just shoots what wanders up to the club's bait fields, ranges are more likely to be 40 yards around here and under heavy foliage where that high powered scope would be near enough useless. I fully see how the same rifle might be just the thing out west and my iron sighted Winchester 94 sort of laughable out there.

I think Cooper was looking for a rifle that had some usefulness where ever the rifleman ended up and whatever he was hunting regardless of the number of legs on the target.

How about folks that want to come up with something like a Cooper-like Scout Rifle keep busy on this topic and folks that want to argue semantics or just put down a dead guy and his ideas go away?

-kBob

 

[Llama Bob]

Many times. Not as handy as a mountain rifle for hunting, and really no faster to the shoulder or on target.

An odd statement - as there's nothing special weight wise about a "mountain rifle" and they're frequently built on the same actions.

 

[WrongHanded]

For all the arguing about the scout rifle concept, if I didn't currently have an M1 Garand and Mini 14, something along the lines of a scout rifle would be my first choice these days.

I don't hunt, I don't keep an AR for home defense, I don't feel an impending doom looming over the horizon, nor do I hike with anything more than a revolver for protection. But I still like having a rifle around that could be pressed into service at distances beyond those easily afford by either handguns or shotguns, which could be used for a multitude of scenarios that are unlikely but still possible. So perhaps the scout rifle is best applied to a person who has no true need for a rifle, and does not care to own a number of them for each specific task. Saving on both ammunition and range time, whilst still being familiar with a firearm that can fill many rolls if needed.

 

[MistWolf]

The consideration I give the scout "concept" is largely scrutinization of the applicable paradigm where such a rifle is best fielded. It is hard to argue a .308win under 7lbs and under 36" with a fast reloads and a moderate to low power optic and back up irons, deployed with a detachable magazine or stripper compatibility is not highly versatile for a scenario in which the person wielding said carbine could engage limited combatant contact as well as fill a stew pot.

However - considering the era in which we live, and even such the late Colonel lived, I'm not certain I believe such a scenario really exists

The Scout rifle was not designed for conditions in the United States. It was designed for conditions in South Africa. It's mission was to arm a long range recon scout, deployed days or even weeks, searching for small groups of terrorists infiltrating their borders

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I like the concept of the scout rifle, but a steadfast rule is dumb.

In my mind, the SKS is the ultimate scout rifle.

 

[grampajack]

Simple question: have you ever actually taken a scout rifle afield even once in your life?

No, but I've also never shot a SPAS 12, AR pistol, or G18. I don't have to necessarily use something to see that it's a bad idea. There are just some ideas so bad that that fact is readily apparent in and of itself.

The Scout rifle was not designed for conditions in the United States. It was designed for conditions in South Africa. It's mission was to arm a long range recon scout, deployed days or even weeks, searching for small groups of terrorists infiltrating their borders

That was my understanding, as well. Which is the major factor in my not understanding the concept at all, considering an M16 would be head and shoulders a better option, given that firepower is the only salvation of a small force trying to escape and evade a greater one. In a situation like that, you would be much better served by an intermediate semi auto with hi cap mags. If evading detection is the name of the game, then you're not going to need an 800 yard cartridge. That's why the M16 was so popular with special operations in Vietnam. It gave them a lot of firepower at close range in a lightweight package.

Like I said before, the only conclusion I can draw is that Cooper came up with the idea back when soldiers could only choose between a bolt action or an M1/M14 type semi auto. I think he was just very stuck in the past.

 

[Varminterror]

The Scout rifle was not designed for conditions in the United States. It was designed for conditions in South Africa. It's mission was to arm a long range recon scout, deployed days or even weeks, searching for small groups of terrorists infiltrating their borders

Right - and how many are owned in the states? And how many of the chest thumping Cooper fan boi's are deploying them on recon missions?

It's a weapon designed for a paradigm which doesn't exist for the people who own them because Cooper said so, and don't realize any better.

 

[Balrog]

Yeah, nothing unpredictable EVER happens in a self defense situation. It always follows a nice neat script in which no more than 4 shots are needed!

Unpredictable things definitely happen, but I really don't want to have them happen while all I have is a scout rifle in my hands.

 

[Jason_W]

I like the concept of the scout rifle, but a steadfast rule is dumb.

In my mind, the SKS is the ultimate scout rifle.

I feel the same way. Some guys hold Cooper's specs as gospel, but in the end, "scout" is just an arbitrary label. To me, they are just handy, versatile, do-all rifles. Yeah, there are specialized rigs for specialized tasks and while it would be cool to have a brush rifle, an open country rifle, a walkin' around rifle, a sittin' still rifle, a rainy day rifle, and a sunny say rifle, budgets don't always allow for such a selection.

I'll take something short so it won't hand up in the brush, but still flat shooting enough to take a deer across a clearing.

 

[someguy2800]

Since the first time I saw a scout rifle I thought they were really really cool looking, but in 15 years of thinking about it I can't envision a situation that I would want to have one over a normal bolt action hunting rifle. The defining characteristic to me is the forward mounted scope, without that its just a regular carbine. With the excellent quality optics we have today that have very forgiving eye relief and wide field of view I can't really think of any reason I would want to have the forward mounted scope. After owning 6 or 8 pistol scopes and noting how terrible the field of view is on them the idea of having one on a rifle doesn't really appeal to me. Actually the only rifle that appeals in any way to me with a forward mounted scope would be a Marlin 45-70 with something like a 2X leupold. I might have to try it someday on mine if my eye's ever start giving me trouble with the peep sights.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I feel the same way. Some guys hold Cooper's specs as gospel, but in the end, "scout" is just an arbitrary label. To me, they are just handy, versatile, do-all rifles. Yeah, there are specialized rigs for specialized tasks and while it would be cool to have a brush rifle, an open country rifle, a walkin' around rifle, a sittin' still rifle, a rainy day rifle, and a sunny say rifle, budgets don't always allow for such a selection.

I'll take something short so it won't hand up in the brush, but still flat shooting enough to take a deer across a clearing.

100000% agree.