Seized by the Manchester, New Hampshire PD for Open Carry

[kbr80]

but we are not there to serve anyone or anything except the US Constitution which we all take an oath to uphold

Too bad some LEO's have not read the Constitution, especially where search and seizure come in.

We as a group are under the most strict scrutiny of any group in our society when it comes to use of force.

Then why, if I used force, wrongly, I end up in jail. But if an LEO does it, wrongly, he/she gets the benefit of the doubt, paid leave, and its called a learning experience.

 

[only1asterisk]

FedDC,

What is to keep you from investigating where people are armed? You have a gun. Next time I interact with an officer, should I insist he disarm so I be safe?

You need more than an idiot to make a phone call to start putting your hands on people. If you don't see that, you may be in the wrong line of work.


David

 

[tyme]

FedDC,
"LE exists to do just what it sounds like, enforce the law."

We've been through this. You think there's some police duty to investigate possible-maybe-could-be violations of laws-unspecified-by-911-callers. I and several others here don't.

The fact remains that if one distraught citizen can call police and have them detain anyone who dares exercise a constitutional right, that's tyranny of a minority (of one). The Founders' protections against the majority aren't working well these days, thanks in part to an increasingly activist judiciary. (Don't get me wrong, that has plenty of negative consequences as well.) Now the inherent protection against a minority provided by democracy itself is gone. What's left? This sounds like anarchy to me. Both the majority and the minority can get what they want. What do I get? Nothing, it seems. Not even peace of mind.

I can appreciate that some policies may not allow 911 operators to tell callers to quit whining. It's still unacceptable that nobody in the operator-dispatcher-officer chain seems to have the authority and intelligence to call the whole thing off in these kinds of situations.

 

[FedDC]

Or maybe this: Do you think the author of this site may be a little bit racist???
http://expressyourselftalk.com/denvey_buckley.htm

http://expressyourselftalk.com/keith_harris.htm

In this case, white officers attempted to arrest an emotionally disturbed man that they could have killed. He had a butcher knife, was using drugs, drank bleach, and slit his own wrists...then he ran down the street naked with the officers chasing him. He had a heart attack and died in custody due to all of the factors above plus his obesity. The officers involved were fired for excessive force and are being sued for more money than they could ever make in their lifetime. But in the eyes of the "Public" they must be guilty, since it was two white officer and a dead black man...never mind the knife, drugs, bleach, suicide attempt, assault on the police officers... They must have just been racist JBTs.

It is crap like this that contributes to the distrust LEOs have for non LEOs. We get very little support from the community we are supposed to protect. Because of this, many officers choose to just say "F it" and let the criminals go because nobody every got fired or sued for parking the car in an alley and playing gameboy or going to the firehouse for a movie. The theory is called "Passive Policing" and it is what you get when you constantly criticize your police. It is a major factor in the escalation of crime bc many officer no longer go out and try to stop crime from occurring. They intentionally responds slowly in hopes that the suspect will be gone when they get there...or maybe they just leave the siren on all the way to the house, so the bad guys run off...bc we know that people like the ones commenting in this thread may be on a jury that decides to give all of our future earnings to the family of a scumbag crack dealer. Personally, I choose to provide for my family and until the PC climate changes or I quit seeing people calling LEOs Nazis, I will proceed more "Cautiously" even if it means that more criminals go free and more civilians get hurt because I am not going to lose my kids college fund or the house that my family lives in because some armchair quarterback thinks he can do my job better than I can... Be careful what you wish for. If you want hands off policing, it applies all around and as seen in places like Memphis, the crime rate goes through the roof.

 

[kbr80]

reading your last post, and re reading it, I agree with what ONLY1ASTERISK said:

you may be in the wrong line of work.

You sir, In my opinion need to leave Law Enforcement. You, from what I have read in your posts have not a clue, nadda, zero, about law enforcement, not even the basics. You, in my opinion are a danger to yourself and to others. Thats my opinion, others may agree, or disagree. Dont care. I hope I never have a run in with a LEO with an attitude like yours.

 

[FedDC]

LOL, don't worry, if you run into me you will be disarmed so you won't have to worry about my attitude for long

 

[gander]

open carry in ohio

I have a personal experience that may be relevant to this particular thread. Here in ohio a friend of mine chose to take an evening stroll down a public road in a rural township. As is his usual practice he holstered a small auto on the outside of his belt. Definitely unconcealed. While walking he was accosted by a passing deputy who stopped and demanded that my friend surrender the weapon. Upon being asked why, he replied vaguely"for suspicion" ! When queried about suspicion, he replied you're on a public road. Nothing further. At this point a friend of my buddy drove up stopped and backed up my friend and suggested they call the sheriff. The sheriff who is retired Highway Patrol finally arrived after two hours and after several other deputies and one High Way Patrol Officer had shown up and engaged in contentious debate about the legalities of open carry on a public road. The sheriffs' take on all this was to suggest that the gun be surrendered to him in an effort to defuse the situation. At this point my buddy point blank refused and said he was leaving and the sheriff was free to take what ever action he chose. He was allowed to leave at this point and was not arrested. When I heard this story I called the sheriffs office an asked about the policy on open carry on a Public road. I was told that was a legal question and I would have to take it up with the county prosecutor. A call to the prosecutor revealed that staff opinion, not the prosecutor himself who was not,in was that the new concealed carry law here in Ohio would require a permit for open carry! I am following this up with the prosecutor Monday so as to pin him down in writing on the subject. I will post his reply as soon as I receive it.

 

[Theophorus]

"I know what you are trying to start. Your comment only applies to non-LEOs. The quality controls in place for hiring and maintaining officers ensures that your odds of running into one of those rogue officers you guys love to complain about are pretty slim."

The QC's in place do no more than assure the propagation of the kind of crap many of us have seen being spewed all over this thread. The current QC's assure that those who've toed the party line get in. That is what sets the stage for a nazi state.

Theo

 

[kbr80]

LOL, don't worry, if you run into me you will be disarmed so you won't have to worry about my attitude for long

LOL, you try to disarm me, with no PC to back you up, you will end up in a world of trouble, and I am not talking about a law suit. With your attitude, one day you will be on the receiving end of an ass whooping. I have seen it happen, and you sir are the reason citizens distrust LEO's.

 

[thefitzvh]

Like I said, FedDC.... Molon Labe


You have NO RIGHT to disarm a law abiding citizen. If you feel you do, then you are among the enemies, foreign and domestic, that I have sword to defend the constitution against.

When you sign up, you forfiet your right to safety. Where in your oath does it say that you have a right to feel safe at the expense of others?


If you say you have an oath to "defend" the constitution, then the officers who disarm an innocent man are violating that oath.

As a soldier in the US military, I recognize and accept that I lose a great deal of my rights by taking that oath. One of which is the "right" to be safe.

The problem with LE is that they assume that they DON'T lose that right.

If LEOs want to consider themselves less "civilian", then maybe they should start accepting the sacrifice and danger that comes with the job. You sir, with the "attitude" that you have, are a disgrace to the letter and spirit of law enforcement. Disarming a citizen who complies with the law is criminal, and I will never feel differently.

The "serve and protect" slogan shouldn't be a slogan. It should be your code that you live by. Enforcing unjust law is contradictory to that idea. In addition, don't preach about the "crap" you have to put up with. If you don't like it, leave law enforcement. You have no place as an officer if you fail to recognize that your first and foremost duty is to serve the public. As members of the military, many of us on this board have to put up with a lot of "crap," and that STILL gives us no right to diminish the rights of citizens.

Once you fail to do that, you become the enemy. And trust me, when the time comes, many of your ilk will be on the recieving end of a vast public who has become tired of your superiority complex.


James

 

[Theophorus]

"A call to the prosecutor revealed that staff opinion, not the prosecutor himself who was not,in was that the new concealed carry law here in Ohio would require a permit for open carry! I am following this up with the prosecutor Monday so as to pin him down in writing on the subject. I will post his reply as soon as I receive it."

That's the problem. We have allowed and accepted that we should be permitted to carry concealed. It now has become an argument from the greater to the lesser.

Theo

 

[deanf]

We are there to make the scene safe, do some investigating, and then arrest or release. That is all. We can not do those three things when the people we are trying to investigate have a gun and could kill us or anybody else within range at a moments notice.

I guess what you don't get is that in this case there was no cause - NO AUTHORITY - to investigate anything. That's what sticks in most people's craws over this particular incident. There has been no information given that a crime was being, or was about to be, committed.

You say you're "duty bound" to investigate fully all 9-1-1 calls. Who says? What if there is no information whatsoever that a crime is either being, or about to be, committed? Are you still "duty bound"? What legalities "bind" you to this "duty"?

 

[FedDC]

KBR, relax man, I'm just pushing your buttons. I have no desire to argue with law abiding citizens. Seriously though, I have always wondered why it is that everybody thinks they can do the cops job better than he can. Do you go to the dentist and tell him all about how he is improperly cleaning your teeth, or maybe give your doctor a lecture on how to do a medical exam before you go into his office? Of course not because it is their profession and they are the ones trained it that skill. We as LEOs are the ones trained in this particular skill and just like you wouldn't tell a brain surgeon how to do his surgery, why would you tell a LEO how to perform his task? I never cease to be amazed at that double standard.

 

[Theophorus]

Since when does "investigating" a 911 call involve an assault on a perceivably law abiding citizen? I suppose that reading a book at a B&E is pretty threatening. Who knows, maybe the responding "officers" saw the title of the book, "The Constitution of the United States of America" and this catapulted them into action. "This man's a free thinker and an armed freeman! Get him for we are in danger!"

Theo

 

[Theophorus]

"KBR, relax man, I'm just pushing your buttons. I have no desire to argue with law abiding citizens. "

Heh, that's a lie. You've proven that over and over. You are on the wrong side of history, my friend. Turn in your badge if you have one, PLEASE!

Theo

 

[deanf]

Not a valid comparison

Dentist

Brain Surgeon

Police Officer

The first two, in most cases, I choose to interact with. I can avail myself of their services or not, if I don't like the way they do business, I can go somewhere else.

The police officer is different. He's got the power to make my life a living hell for a short or long period of time, and I've got no choice in the matter. He should be under the microscope and his actions critiqued on a frequent basis, because of all his special and unique authority. And if you go up the chain of command to it's logical conclusion, The People - me, you, everyone on this board - is at the top. That's why we can and should do our best to tell you how to do your job, via every legal means possible. You're doing the "job" on us and for us at the same time.

That being said, I'm sorry if you feel personally attacked by some in this thread. It's wrong.

 

[kbr80]

We as LEOs are the ones trained in this particular skill

Someone either trained you wrong, or you just did not pay attention, or you were the kid that was always picked on in school to develop an attitude like you have.



15 years of law enforcement experience behind my belt, so i can safely critique the actions/inactions of LEO's. And like I said, with your attitude, you will finally grab, detain the wrong person, a person that knows his rights, and hates your attitude, and they will gvie you the ass beating of your life. Yes, they will go to jail, but your ass will still be beat. I have seen cocky, superior attitude cops get just that in the line of duty. Your time is comming. You have all the proper zeal for a cop, but all the wrong ideas on how to do the job.

 

[FedDC]

deanf-

Welcome to the age of "Liability." It is what truly drives LE these days and it is a big part of why we have to go to ALL 911 calls, even the hang ups. The theory is that once the call for help is made, it is the responsibility of the police to respond and investigate and if we fail to do that and people are hurt or killed as a result, we are liable. To fail in responding to a 911 call, even a BS one or a hang up could end a career in a big hurry, especially if someone got hurt as a result. Many agencies have even started timing their response to 911 calls and the officer can get in real trouble if he takes more than a couple of minutes to respond.

As far as the authority, there is some validity to that...and there isn't. It all depends on how the call went from the complainant to the 911 operator...to the dispatcher and then to the officer. If it came out as a "Man with a gun" or even a possible robbery in progress (Don't laugh, some people get stupid when they call 911 and just say strange things like that), then the officers had no way of knowing whether the suspect was a threat or not.

Either way, once the officers were on scene, they have no choice but to ask a few questions and figure out what is going on (There are reports to do) but before they can do that the scene has to be safe fore everyone involved (Remember that the officers do not know if the suspect is a good guy or a bad guy) so they will disarm him. They did not cuff him or draw their weapons which would have been fairly easy to articulate. The general rule is, if you see a weapon, draw your own weapon. All in all, it sounds like it went well. The officers responded to a call, just like they are required to, made it safe, asked a few questions, and then determined that there was no PC for arrest, so the returned the property and everyone went back to what they were doing.

 

[gander]

surrender weapon

For FedDC:
I need to separate them from their ability to kill me, not only for my safety, but for the safety of the people in the vicinity and the safety of the suspect who would be killed if he shot me.

Just wondering, You are certainly within your rights to ask for the weapon, but presumably that person would be equally with in their rights to refuse.
In this land of sheep you have probably never had someone refuse. Ever considered your next step if someone simply did so.

 

[kbr80]

if you see a weapon, draw your own weapon.

NH open carry. Must be alot of guns clearing leather there.

and then determined that there was no PC for arrest

Too bad they did not use the same logic in determining that they had NO pc to disarm him.

In this land of sheep you have probably never had someone refuse. Ever considered your next step if someone simply did so.

thats when they arrest you, or hit you with a stun gun or something. Read the thread on the father that thought he was doing the right thing buy turning over the sawed off shotgun he found in his kids room. Yes, he was not looking out for his kid, and a rat for doing it, but he was jailed, for exercising his rights.
:banghead:

Gestapo, police state, what ever you want to call it. Time for a change.:banghead:

 

[deanf]

Yeah I know all about taking calls and dispatching. I did that for about 13 years.

We actually didn't send on hang-ups where we could call back in and determine based on our own judgement that everything was ok. We also did a few other things that might be considered hanging one's butt out. I look back on it and am proud: Thumbing our noses at the lawyers like that. Luckily we never got burned.

 

[FedDC]

SHOCKING UPDATE!!!

OMG, I just realized that I too have been the victim of a JBT! Just last night, I was disarmed by a LEO. I had to take a friend to the ER and the hospital PD took my pistol at the door...OMG, what a bunch of JBTs. They even locked it in a safe where I couldn't get to it. He even had that audacity to put his hand on my shoulder as I went through the door...I feel assaulted. I was just trying to take a friend to the hospital and it was an emergency! They deprived me of my rights and probably would have denied me access to a medical facility if I had not allowed them to dominate me like that... How dare they!

Or I could say that I took a friend to the ER and the Officer tapped me on the shoulder as we went in and asked for my pistol, since they use magnetic equipment in there that will damage my pistol.

It is all in how it is spun...and it is becoming more and more obvious that certain folks look for ways to spin LEOs into JBTs. That's a shame.

 

[Larryect]

I have fired Doctors and Dentists for not performing their jobs correctly - in my opinion. I take my business elsewhere. How do we do that with LEO's that don't do their job properly? I think mvpel is working on it.....

 

[only1asterisk]

....they use magnetic equipment in there that will damage my pistol.

What kind of pistol might that be so I don't buy one!

David

 

[cordex]

Or I could say that I took a friend to the ER and the Officer tapped me on the shoulder as we went in and asked for my pistol, since they use magnetic equipment in there that will damage my pistol.

Oh? And how would things have gone had the thoughtful officer taken it upon himself to come from behind and disarm you without identifying himself or the reasons for taking your weapon?